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Star Performance Testing Day – Pt1 Brakes

Discussion in 'A3/S3 Forum (8L Chassis)' started by Ess_Three, Feb 19, 2004.

  1. Ess_Three
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    Ess_Three Active Member

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    [Feb 19, 2004]
    The factual bit:

    I spent many hours down at Star Performance yesterday…12 hours in fact (08:45-20:45) having a play…testing a few things, having a load of work done, trying out a few things etc.

    Firstly, thanks to Jim & Brian…12 hours and two meals later we were all knackered!
    Credit where it’s due…anyone looking for decent service, advice and standard of work could do a lot worse than giving them a shout.

    Secondly, none of this was free…labour rates, wheel alignment rates, dyno time, replacement parts…all paid for out of my pocket...I have the invoice for over £900 to prove it!!

    Thirdly, these are our (mine, Jim’s and Brian’s) observations based upon our findings. All testing carried out with conditions kept as close to previous conditions as possible etc…some will disagree violently, some will agree…that’s your prerogative.

    So, off we go:

    EBC Brakes.

    As many of you will know...I'm a fan of EBC Greenstuff pads...good grip, more bite, less fading etc...

    But whilst having some brake 'work' done we found these:

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    NOT GOOD!
    NOT IMPRESSED!

    Needless to say, I have contacted EBC for their thoughts...but this could have been VERY serious indeed.

    Makes you wonder about the quality of EBC products doesn't it?



    #1
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  3. DavidR
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    DavidR Active Member

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    [Feb 19, 2004]
    Its perhaps worth pointing out for those with dialup or limited knowledge of the anatomy of brakes, that the friction material on the above pads has completely separated from the carrying backplate. It would seem that goodfortune was pretty much all that held them in place... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif
    #2
  4. Ess_Three
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    Ess_Three Active Member

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    [Feb 19, 2004]
    Well pointed out Sir!

    I was assuming everyone was fully up to speed with brakes, but as you point out...this may not be so.

    As the pics show...the friction material has become completely detached from the carrier...and hence was not actually held into the calliper or carrier in any way.

    You don't have to be a rocket scientist to spot what the potential for this would be has the pad material have exited via the calliper.
    #3
  5. Mike.M
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    Mike.M Well-Known Member

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    [Feb 19, 2004]
    .......... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked2.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked2.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/jawdrop.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked2.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked2.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/jawdrop.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked2.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked2.gif
    #4
  6. RichA3Turbo
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    RichA3Turbo ...Watching you! Staff Member Moderator

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    [Feb 19, 2004]
    [ QUOTE ]
    S3 Mike said:
    .......... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked2.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked2.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/jawdrop.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked2.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked2.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/jawdrop.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked2.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked2.gif

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Very!

    This is the second time i've heard of this happening, and to be honest, will make me think twice about buying EBS pads. Its a SERIOUSLY dangerous problem!

    Rich
    #5
  7. Mike.M
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    Mike.M Well-Known Member

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    [Feb 19, 2004]
    I personaly like Black Diamond or TAR.OX
    #6
  8. Ess_Three
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    Ess_Three Active Member

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    [Feb 19, 2004]
    I have had a reply from the nice man at EBC...who is understandably gobsmacked!

    He suggests I return the pads to them for what appears to be a replacememt!

    However:
    He does go on to say, and I quote:

    [ QUOTE ]
    however while greenstuff is the best type of pad for golf gti
    it is not what we would recommend for an s3
    greenstuff is best for fiesta golf polo etc
    redstuff is for 200 bhp+ turbo or 4wd cars


    [/ QUOTE ]

    Odd that there are some tuners out there who recommend the fitting of EBC Greenstuff pads to our cars...where EBC are now not suggesting this as the correct pad material for the S3.

    BEWARE!!
    #7
  9. Mike.M
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    Mike.M Well-Known Member

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    [Feb 19, 2004]
    AMD for one.

    Those pads look quite new due to no liking that worn too.


    Scary shhhhhhhhhhhiiiiiiiiiiiiiitttttttttttt!
    #8
  10. Mike.M
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    Mike.M Well-Known Member

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    [Feb 19, 2004]
    looking not liking /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif
    #9
  11. RichA3Turbo
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    RichA3Turbo ...Watching you! Staff Member Moderator

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    [Feb 19, 2004]
    Well isnt that interesting. If they dont recomend them why bother making them!?!

    #10
  12. Ess_Three
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    Ess_Three Active Member

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    [Feb 19, 2004]
    [ QUOTE ]
    RichA3Turbo said:
    Well isnt that interesting. If they dont recomend them why bother making them!?!



    [/ QUOTE ]
    Same pads as my Golf GTI (fronts at least)!!
    That might explain it.
    #11
  13. tennisguy
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    tennisguy Member

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    [Feb 19, 2004]
    Very scary indeed.
    #12
  14. Drill
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    Drill Member

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    [Feb 19, 2004]
    /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/jawdrop.gif Nuff Said /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif
    #13
  15. Gambba
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    Gambba Active Member

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    [Feb 19, 2004]
    It's really not as scary as it looks folks, as the recesses on the backplates are quite deep to retain the friction material....having said this it isn't good.

    Glen, I am on my second set of front pads on my A3T as they did exactly the same as yours have done above, so EBC's statement sounds like a load of cock and bull to me. It would be interesting if you could reply to EBC and make reference to my A3T with greenstuffs and their turbogroove discs and the failure I had, and see what they have to say. My pads were given back to the dutch importer RS Trade, so assume EBC were sent them.

    If he comes back with the same statement on my 200ish hp A3T then will he be informing RS Trade in The Netherlands to fit red stuffs to my car free of charge...as they should be doing to yours?
    #14
  16. paulbinks
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    paulbinks Member

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    [Feb 19, 2004]
    This is the reason i use Ferrodo DS2500 pads as i had major conserns about EBC greenstuff Max Power lack of guality control pads everyone seems to fit these days /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/piss.gif
    #15
  17. Banwell
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    Banwell previously LeeS3

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    [Feb 22, 2004]
    So what about all us S3s running these green stuff pads?

    Should we bin them immediately?
    #16
  18. Banwell
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    Banwell previously LeeS3

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    [Feb 25, 2004]
    I too have been in contact with both EBC and AMD on this.

    EBC are steadfast in saying I should be running redstuff. Although they point out the risk of running greens isn't as bad as this post might suggest..

    AMD say that redstuff munches standard disc and recommend greenstuff.

    /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/idea.gif


    #17
  19. paulbinks
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    paulbinks Member

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    [Feb 25, 2004]
    From those replies i wouldnt trust either to supply my brake pads, try circuit supplies on 01525385888 for some proper pads by Ferrodo ie; DS2500 but say they are for track day use.
    Cheers "Bingo"
    /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beerchug.gif
    #18
  20. Banwell
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    Banwell previously LeeS3

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    [Feb 25, 2004]
    Which is maybe why EBC is sticking to their 200 BHP max for green pads - to aleviate themselves of potential legal issues. They did ask to be informed about who was recommending green stuff for S3s.

    It remains questionable whether AMD should 'stick by their original recommendation' of green stuff on the basis that it eats front disc - what do they care? It's me who'll have to replace them?!? Probably with a matched pad from them??

    I think it might be more of a case of we sold so many of these pads that the situation could develop into a hot potatoe.

    It may also be the case that greens are on the limit of application to an S3 - ie. 225, and in tuners opinions these pads can work effectively without hitch, however the producer EBC isn't able to give such garantees especially when they have a product designed which is more suitable ie. reds, and infinetly open to legal proceedings.

    My views entirely of course...

    #19
  21. Gambba
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    Gambba Active Member

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    [Feb 26, 2004]
    [ QUOTE ]
    Lees3 said:
    Power to weight ratio is probably the correct measurement for pad specification.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Which is exactly my point, and is why the EBC statement is odd, especially when you consider my car is 200kg lighter than an S3 and actual BHP (That's power at the wheels) of a standard A3T and an S3 aren't that far away from each other.
    #20
  22. Gambba
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    Gambba Active Member

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    [Feb 27, 2004]
    [ QUOTE ]
    Lees3 said:
    yes but your car is special..

    [/ QUOTE ]

    /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/lol.gif No just me /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

    But I was talking standard cars.
    #21
  23. s3gazz
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    s3gazz Active Member

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    [Feb 19, 2011]
    hi just wondering whats the best pads and discs for a lcr brembo set up tar or and what fluid cheers
    #22
  24. <tuffty/>
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    <tuffty/> Badger 5 Edition Staff Member Moderator

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    [Feb 19, 2011]
    Ferodo DS2500 pads and Motul RBF 660 fluid...

    <tuffty/>
    #23
  25. Broken Byzan
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    Broken Byzan Photographic Moderator Staff Member Moderator VCDS Map User

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    [Feb 19, 2011]
    Holy thread reserection batman...
    #24
  26. <tuffty/>
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    <tuffty/> Badger 5 Edition Staff Member Moderator

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    [Feb 19, 2011]
    Yep... all this info has been discussed in eleventy billion threads since

    <tuffty/>
    #25
  27. s3gazz
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    s3gazz Active Member

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    [Feb 19, 2011]
    iv bought ferrodo dot 5.1 now tuffty so too late or well still do the job
    #26
  28. <tuffty/>
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    <tuffty/> Badger 5 Edition Staff Member Moderator

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    [Feb 19, 2011]
    If you already have it then why ask what fluid?? no matter... it will do but DOT 5.1 fluid is more compressible than DOT 4 and therefore will give a slightly softer pedal but has better ratings than normal DOT 4... RBF 660 is DOT 4 but is a racing fluid and has been developed to exceed DOT 5.1 standards except on viscosity at -40 deg c

    Its a synthetic fluid so you would need to replace all your fluid with it... takes about 1 ltr (2 x 500ml bottles) but generally a good idea to have access to a third in case you need to especially on a first full bleed when going from a std fluid to RBF 660

    <tuffty/>
    #27
  29. s3gazz
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    s3gazz Active Member

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    [Feb 20, 2011]
    cheers tuffty only asked coz if it was wrong stuff my mate wants it that all
    so ill stick with this then i dont race apart from now and then
    #28
  30. <tuffty/>
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    <tuffty/> Badger 5 Edition Staff Member Moderator

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    [Feb 21, 2011]
    Ok... after a little more research just checking my facts and also re-reading what I posted it would appear I am not 100% accurate in this statement lol...

    For a start fluids aren't compressible (which I knew, DOH!) and wasn't exactly what I meant to say... I read a while back that DOT 5.1 can give a softer feel to the pedal than DOT 4 and thats what I was trying to say but managed to get that round my neck lol... I have also read conflicting information about how hygroscopic DOT 5.1 is meant to be compared to DOT 4... some say more, others say less... I have it on good authority that its less but either way its still hygroscopic so needs to be changed on the normal service intervals...

    Further reading can be found here..

    Brake fluid - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    and info on the RBF 660 fluid here..
    http://www.motul-oil.co.uk/pdfs/brake-fluid/RBF_660_TDS_(GB).pdf

    ..where you can see that in both dry and wet boiling points the RBF 660 exceeds that of the normal DOT 5.1 spec... good for those of us that are heavy on the brakes ;P

    I use 660 and never had an issue with my brakes

    <tuffty/>
    #29
  31. aragorn
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    aragorn "Stick a V8 in it!" Staff Member Moderator VCDS Map User

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    [Feb 21, 2011]
    5.1 is more hydroscopic, but still has a higher boiling point than normal DOT4 when "wet", so in theory should last just as long.

    Super DOT4's are odd, in that they're much better than 4's and usually 5.1's as well, but one of their specs (perhaps the viscosity you mentioned) doesnt allow them to actually be called 5.1 fluids.
    #30
  32. s3gazz
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    s3gazz Active Member

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    [Feb 21, 2011]
    thanks lads get info ill stick with it now as iv got it saves messing about doing brakes this week just eed to ring badger bill for some hoses tar
    #31
  33. icenutter
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    icenutter Member

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    [Feb 21, 2011]
    I think the confusion might be because DOT 5 fluid is compressible, as it is silicone based, where as DOT 5.1 (and 3 and 4) are glycol-ether based, so aren't appreciably compressible.

    (Holy thread revival Batman etc. etc.)
    #32

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