Stage 2+ Runner flap delete, is it worthwhile??

[Doogie...]

Considering having this done to my S3 as its more or less the last mod to be done to it before we talk stage 3 which wont be for a long time. Its a 2007 S3 Tuned with APR upto stage 2+ with a rough estimate of around 350-360hp and 340-350 ft lbs.

Question is, the apr RFD kit is a simple enough mod for the car and not to painful on the bank account, but is it worth doing on my car to see any real gains or even any real difference in drive feel and response?

Had mixed responses from different people. Some are saying unless your Stage 3 with in excess of 400 hp then its not worth while to do to a stage 2 s3. But other people have said that on their car (stage 2+) that it has made a difference and they can definetely feel a difference albeit not a massive change in performance but a change in response and how the car drives at certain revs.

The cars already APR tuned, making this a fairly easy decision to make if it is worth while as its more or less in regards to install and software upgrade a plug and play mod on my car. But if i'm not going to see or feel any change then i'm simply not going to bother.

What are peoples opinions on this? Has it worked on your car? has it made much difference? And based on the status of my car and in respect to the figures it's producing is it going to be a worthwhile mod or money down the drain??

Of course i'm not looking for the maximum increases on this mod but if it has improved certain aspects of the drive then i'm more than happy to go for it and see what differences it creates.

Thanks in advance for any advice

Dougie

 

[Doogie...]

No one got any advice on this at all??

 

[warren_S5]

Don't think there are many people at this level of tune who will have done this to comment.

Other cheap / good mod is the Forge silicone throttle body hose, surprising how it improves throttle response when car runs hot! Sorry I can't be of more help, might be worth PM'ing S3Alex about the RFD.

 

[Doogie...]

No worries, Thanks for the reply. will pm him just now

 

[s3_trev]

What is "runner flap delete" ??

 

[Doogie...]

APR - High Performance Development for Audi, VW, Seat, Skoda, and Porsche Vehicles.

This, There is a plastic flap along the intake manifold inlets, this product deletes that flap and replaces it, thus allowing more air to pass in to the intake manifold and you know the rest of what happens there after.

 

[s3_trev]

Hmm well there you go learn something new every day.

 

[JJ.Foulds]

Power Gains: At Stage 3 airflow levels, typical results showed a decrease in turbocharger lag, more than a 10 ft-lbs of torque gain and more than a 10 horsepower gain.

Just do it, 10hp cnt be too bad.

Or put the money into a BT

 

[Doogie...]

Really really tempted to do it. ive pm'd alex so hopefully he lets me know whether or not he thinks it will be worthwhile.

But to be honest, i'll probably get it done anyway

 

[JJ.Foulds]

Really really tempted to do it. ive pm'd alex so hopefully he lets me know whether or not he thinks it will be worthwhile.

But to be honest, i'll probably get it done anyway

End of day, if your thinking about going BT anyway, it will still be useful later on, and you can get it fitted while you change internals etc, so why not if you got the cash

 

[Doogie...]

yeah, plan is to go stage 3 later on and get internals etc upgraded. Talking a year or two before that happens so this willl be a nice little stock gap mod between now and then anyway.

I guess i'll be the guinea pig for it. Will let you know after its done if it does make a difference or if I threw my money down the drain.

 

[JJ.Foulds]

yeah, plan is to go stage 3 later on and get internals etc upgraded. Talking a year or two before that happens so this willl be a nice little stock gap mod between now and then anyway.

I guess i'll be the guinea pig for it. Will let you know after its done if it does make a difference or if I threw my money down the drain.

you need to dyno before and after

 

[Doogie...]

i know, Being relatively new to the vag scene (previously owned japanese marques) i'm yet to get to grips with the whole ins and outs of Audi's and tuning them further.

Correct me if i'm wrong, but from what i've read, i need a haldex controller to set the car to FWD for a more accurate power run on a dyno. Is this somewhat accurate or have i misinterpreted this information?? Will a 4 wheel dyno give an accurate reading?

Forgive my lack of knowledge. as i said, i'm brand new to audi's

 

[JJ.Foulds]

i know, Being relatively new to the vag scene (previously owned japanese marques) i'm yet to get to grips with the whole ins and outs of Audi's and tuning them further.

Correct me if i'm wrong, but from what i've read, i need a haldex controller to set the car to FWD for a more accurate power run on a dyno. Is this somewhat accurate or have i misinterpreted this information?? Will a 4 wheel dyno give an accurate reading?

Forgive my lack of knowledge. as i said, i'm brand new to audi's

Iv always heard, if its a 4wd car, you should use a 4wd dyno. lol. if its all setup correctly im sure it shouldnt matter tbh.

But im no expert either.

 

[wanton]

From what I have read if you dont need to buy anything to have the car in permanent FWD. You just need to remove a fuse. I'm sure someone will correct me if I am wrong...

 

[Doogie...]

No worries, I think i will be taking a trip to my local 4wd dyno tomorrow to see about power runs.

 

[JJ.Foulds]

No worries, I think i will be taking a trip to my local 4wd dyno tomorrow to see about power runs.

I think its about 3-40 quid s run, and maybe you could get dyno, fitting the product, then a dyno right after. would be fairest! lol

 

[JJ.Foulds]

From what I have read if you dont need to buy anything to have the car in permanent FWD. You just need to remove a fuse. I'm sure someone will correct me if I am wrong...

Im not sure about the 8p but i know the 8L you can do this!

 

[S3Alex]

yeah, plan is to go stage 3 later on and get internals etc upgraded. Talking a year or two before that happens so this willl be a nice little stock gap mod between now and then anyway.

I guess i'll be the guinea pig for it. Will let you know after its done if it does make a difference or if I threw my money down the drain.

Hi Dougie,

I replied to your PM,but after reading this I can see what your longer term plans are.

If you're thinking about a bigger turbo at some stage,and as you're already using APR software,I would say it's worthwhile on those grounds,and you should be looking at the APR GTX2867 conversion,which isn't cheap,but it does come with pretty much everything you'll need unlike a kit such as the one I have which does require more work.

 

[Doogie...]

Hi Dougie,

I replied to your PM,but after reading this I can see what your longer term plans are.

If you're thinking about a bigger turbo at some stage,and as you're already using APR software,I would say it's worthwhile on those grounds,and you should be looking at the APR GTX2867 conversion,which isn't cheap,but it does come with pretty much everything you'll need unlike a kit such as the one I have which does require more work.

Thanks Alex, Guess it's going to be a phone call to the local APR dealer then.

I'll start a build thread soon and keep you all updated that way.

 

[S3Alex]

Thanks Alex, Guess it's going to be a phone call to the local APR dealer then.

I'll start a build thread soon and keep you all updated that way.

That'd be good.

The more information that people have from those of us that have done this,the better,as it widens the knowledge base,and makes it easier to choose kits,and see what parts we're all using.

Good luck.

 

[Doogie...]

Thought id give a little update on this as i've had the flap delete done. Unfortunately it turns out that the loaded map on my car has to be sent to APR directly for recalibration and as this wasn't made clear when the piece was ordered i'll have to wait till friday before i am available to pop back to the dealer to get it re-flashed. But as it stands unmapped for the mod i would definetely say on my car which is stage 2+ there is a definete difference even with the map not being updated for it. The power comes on a lot quicker and boost is more accessible at low revs, aswell as a stronger pull through the gears. Aswell as this, there is noticeable change in sound, A lot more growl and volume with the exhaust and intake and a good amount of turbo noise aswell. Been advised that when the map is updated there will be a noticeable change over what i feel now aswell so looking forward to feeling the difference a relitevely cheap and easy mod can do to the car. Will update fully when its been re-mapped and if i can, might get a dyno run done on the car to see how it is performing power wise. They reckon its pushing around 370hp and 350-60 ft lbs at the fly so not a bad amount over stock.

 

[S3Alex]

Stg2+ car should produce those sort of figures give or take a bit irrespective of the RFD.

Even APRs figures don't quite big gains even on their own GTX2867 system so I'd say its cheap relatively but won't give great increases.

I wouldn't say it made a huge difference on mine.

 

[Doogie...]

Yeah. Was never after a massive increase in power but more about the drive ability aspects of the mod. The car was rated at having roughly 350-360hp before the mod so if it hasn't given any huge gains i'm not massively bothered as i was sold on the improvements of driveability which, even before it has been properly mapped for it has delivered.

As i've said, more power low down and a definete smoother power curve when the foot is down. I'll report back on friday and let everyone know the definitive differences it has made.

But as a whole, i would say it has made a difference, worth the £264 price tag before fitting? No... But i knew this before i got it fitted.

 

[S3Alex]

Yeah. Was never after a massive increase in power but more about the drive ability aspects of the mod. The car was rated at having roughly 350-360hp before the mod so if it hasn't given any huge gains i'm not massively bothered as i was sold on the improvements of driveability which, even before it has been properly mapped for it has delivered.

As i've said, more power low down and a definete smoother power curve when the foot is down. I'll report back on friday and let everyone know the definitive differences it has made.

But as a whole, i would say it has made a difference, worth the £264 price tag before fitting? No... But i knew this before i got it fitted.

I'd agree with that......we had to have the RFD for mine in readiness for the new inlet manifold,so it was easy to decide.

It's interesting though that it's made a difference to the way it feels,and shows how much that collection of bits obstructs the inlet.

 

[Doogie...]

Right well... had the car remapped for the rfd today and straight away... there is a complete change in how the car drives. The turbo spools up quicker and boost comes on sooner, but not only this, the delivery is phenominal. So agressive. Boost comes on full around 2k but by around 3.5k there is a second power curve which feels wild. Before you got the boost on and that was it, felt fast but almost tame. Now it feels like a totally different car. Before i could happily say it wasn't worth the money. Now the map has been tweaked i can happily say it is wirth every penny. Again....i cant stress this enough, definetely not just a good mod to do if your stage 2+ but a worthwhile necessity.

if your thinking of doing it.......do it

 

[S.]

revo doesn't do rfd maps right?

 

[S3Alex]

revo doesn't do rfd maps right?

Correct.

Car will run a bit rough from cold and won't tolerate full throttle until warm.

 

[Brodster]

Dougie if your after a Haldex Controller now mate I supply the whole range of them from Gen 2 - Gen 4 and also race modules and remote controls.

 

[Doogie...]

What are the benefits to the haldex controller? Something ive not properly looked into yet.

 

[JJ.Foulds]

revo doesn't do rfd maps right?

Can this runner flap delete be custom mapped?

And does it simply not change anything unless specifically mapped for?

 

[S.]

yes probably it can. but not many custom tuners over here i would trust. and even less s3's that they can work and develop their maps on...
also i guess there's no benefits if it's not specifically mapped for rfd. like putting hpfp and not remapping.

@ Brodster what's the price on haldex competition gen IV? you can pm me.

 

[Doogie...]

From having it fitted without a map. Id say the only real difference is a change in sound of the car. As in louder exhaust and engine note. Not much change in performance. A slight improvement in mid range but nothing thats worth the money. The map made ALL the difference

 

[S3Alex]

What are the benefits to the haldex controller? Something ive not properly looked into yet.

I would say its only the icing on the cake after you've uprated the suspension,bushes,brakes,and TCAs.

It does make a difference but it's not huge and it's relatively costly.

For instance it costs the same as a Quaife diff but I wouldn't say its as noticeable.

 

[Doogie...]

Well the car has the full suspension, bushes and brakes treatment. Handles well and stops well for the power.

What does the Haldex controller actually do then??

 

[S3Alex]

Well the car has the full suspension, bushes and brakes treatment. Handles well and stops well for the power.

What does the Haldex controller actually do then??

OK....what it will do is to direct torque a bit more aggressively to the rear,and preloads the transmission faster,and the end result is better traction and a bit less understeer.

What's the current brake and suspension spec of your car?

Not being funny,but trying to ensure you don't push money at one of these,when other mods might serve you better and save you money.

 

[MrLapou]

Flaps are designed to provide turbulent air/swirl, thus helping mixing the fuel+air mix in the cylinder leading to better combustion, more power and less emissions.

 

[Doogie...]

On a standard form perhaps but they become a hindrence if you are seeking more power and they prevent an obstruction.

If i'm honest as well, i'd said my average mpg with this map has improved incredibly. Average used to be around 18mpg with the journeys i make too and from work. now the average is no less than 23 mpg and thats all town driving.

Motorway driving sees atleast 35+ mpg than the previous 30mpg.

 

[S3Alex]

On a standard form perhaps but they become a hindrence if you are seeking more power and they prevent an obstruction.

If i'm honest as well, i'd said my average mpg with this map has improved incredibly. Average used to be around 18mpg with the journeys i make too and from work. now the average is no less than 23 mpg and thats all town driving.

Motorway driving sees atleast 35+ mpg than the previous 30mpg.

I think as I've said before that APR were quoting around 20bhp at 450+bhp,so whilst the gains aren't huge,they are there,and it's not expensive.

Good mapping makes a huge difference,and the extra mpg from a lot more torque is very noticeable.
When I got my car,it just about got to 28-30mpg at best,and a Stg1 map easily bettered that,even with the power being used more often.

Now,I wouldn't say it's easy on the juice,but to average 28.6mpg from a 500bhp car that does get used,isn't at all bad.

 

[Doogie...]

I think as I've said before that APR were quoting around 20bhp at 450+bhp,so whilst the gains aren't huge,they are there,and it's not expensive.

Good mapping makes a huge difference,and the extra mpg from a lot more torque is very noticeable.
When I got my car,it just about got to 28-30mpg at best,and a Stg1 map easily bettered that,even with the power being used more often.

Now,I wouldn't say it's easy on the juice,but to average 28.6mpg from a 500bhp car that does get used,isn't at all bad.

Definetely. As i said previously when i had the de-flap fitted without the map, i would have easily said it was 100% not worth the £350 for the part and fitting as it made no noticeable difference other than a louder exhaust and intake noise and a very very slight smoother response in mid range. nothing that would at all make any real difference to the cars drive ability.

The map for it made ALL the difference, considering all i had done to the map previously was fit an intake, service and this de-flap kit the results are night and day over how the car felt before it had these mods done. It was rated at running 350hp, 340ftlbs before i did these things and id guess with guidance that its roughly running close to 370hp and similar torque figures(even though it feels like more). But as previously said, the APR re-map for the mods has totally changed the cars feel and power delivery. On rough guessing i'd say that it feels like there is 40% more power through out the rev range all the way to the red-line where as it felt like there was a flat power delivery before. Now the power comes on sooner and pulls progressively through the entire range.

If the car wasn't already APR tuned i wouldn't have bothered with the de-flap but because i was assured the map is where the difference is made on this mod, i had to get it done. And i was not dissapointed with the outcome.