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Stage 2 Custom Code on TDI 140?

Discussion in 'A3/S3/Sportback (8P Chassis)' started by Mikey, Aug 13, 2008.

  1. Mikey
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    Mikey Member

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    This week im having the milltek downpipe and milltek exhaust fitted, then shorlty after im dropping a green panel filter into the standard airbox. Im told by PSI who are fitting the system (and who are also Custom Code agents) that I could go for a stage 2 map with these mods rather than the "generic" stage 1 map. I have also had this confirmed by Custom Code HQ (JBS) who have said stage 2 will be perfect for the mods im about to do. The Phase 2 power figures for the 140TDI are 180-190bhp and 290-310ft/lb

    I deffo do want to get my car mapped its just a case of who by. I did have my mind set for the bluefin but not sure if that will get the most from the milltek as its a generic map, where as the Custom Code takes what ive had done into consideration.

    So does anyone here have any experiance of the 1) custom code on their TDI 2) the stage 2 custom code on their TDI, or 3) Bluefin map with downpipe and exhaust?

    I also have concerns for how my standard clutch will hold up, but JBS have said to me that on the stage 1 + 2 its all designed to work within the standard clutches means. Im not a 0-60 grag racer anyway, just want nice progressive power right thru the rev range.

    Discuss....(again?! :uhm:)
    #1
  2. L60N
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    L60N Guest

    Hi Mikey.

    I dont know about which remap to get, but im sure your clutch will hold out at those figures. Theyre pretty similar to the 170 dpf model. One has to assume they employ the same clutch.
    #2
  3. Staz
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    Staz is a retronaut Staff Member Moderator

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    Although Bluefin is normally an off the shelf remap they do also offer custom maps. I confirmed this yesterday with Jo at Superchips. I asked her if I were to get a full exhaust system would they be able to update my map and she said yes. And it's all for free!
    #3
  4. SteveTDCi
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    SteveTDCi Active Member

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    My 140ps Golf started to get clutch slip after 20k with Bluefin. My torque figure was 405Nm.
    #4
  5. NHN
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    NHN Modmetractor

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    Mikey is yours dsg or manual?

    I think anything above the 190-200bhp mark seems to be a no no on these engines with dsg given the clutch, thats what few people & tuner have told me, but the 190bhp is pretty much standard isnt it on a generic/stage 1 map & from what I've been told the milltek doesnt make that much difference on this engine, can anyone update us as to if this is true as I dont see point of milltek if it doesnt make any difference for the cost.

    Thanks.

    N.
    #5
  6. devonmikeyboy
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    devonmikeyboy As far from JBS as possible !

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    Custom code is a very good smooth map and as they have cut the price of a map by 30% this year they are probably cheaper then Superchips. You can have CC phase 2 done with no mods done if you want as they are happy to take your cash but it`s up to you if you think it is worth paying an extra £100ish + VAT for a claimed extra 5-10 max bhp or 3% extra power most of which will come by fitting the exhaust without a map anyway. Unless you start to add a bigger FMIC/turbo etc just fitting a panel filter ( which will not make any extra power just slightly increase throttle responce ) and an exhaust which in itself will add a few bhp and make the car accelerate slightly faster but nothing more is not worth having a "custom" map for as far as i am concerned, but then i am not the one taking your money from you.

    Superchips may be able to update your map for free but unless you have your car on a dyno or you are sending them VAG COM logs before and after the map they are basically just guessing what to alter which is a very bad and crude way to map cars so should hope it is for free.
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  7. Mikey
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    Mikey Member

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    mines manual.
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  8. devonmikeyboy
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    devonmikeyboy As far from JBS as possible !

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    The Miltek system is about the same size bore as the stock system. What you are paying for is the it is a stainless steel system made with thick steel and a more free flow back box. If you want to save a few hundred and get the same performance results just pop down to your local custom exhaust maker like powerflow etc and get a free flow back box fitted with your own choice of tail pipes.
    #8
  9. NHN
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    NHN Modmetractor

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    Thats my question, does it affect performance on this dsg car at all as I've been told it doesnt make any difference at all just different noise of course unless resonated, I'm talking about standard map with dsg not manual quattro like yours.

    Ah I now see you went to Allard for yours, they seem to have a good record for diesel tuning for sure, but with my dsg couldnt do anywhere near what you got huh fella as wouldnt handle that kinda power for long, whats the mpg just out of curiosity?
    #9
  10. Staz
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    Staz is a retronaut Staff Member Moderator

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    I think you can actually take your car to them also. I've not checked though.
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  11. Mikey
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    Mikey Member

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    i got a quote from a very reputable custom exhaust company and their system worked out appx £90 MORE than the Milltek.
    #11
  12. Teejay
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    Teejay Mellow Yellow

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    Cheapest Exhaust Back box is to have none.

    Go to any local exhaust place, get em to remove the rear silencer and bend a straight piece of pipe into shape to fill the gap - should cost no more than £30

    Ever so slightly louder and no more restriction in airflow.

    It's called a "Mufflerectomy" in the US and is UK MOT friendly!
    #12
  13. Boydie
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    Boydie Guest

    Then you also sound like a tractor!

    I have clutch slip ever so slightly on my mapped 140pd

    In my opinion, unless have an uprated FMIC and turbo, clutch and exhaust, there is no point going to the 190bhp mark
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  14. Teejay
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    Teejay Mellow Yellow

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    You've obviously not listened to your car as standard then - the difference is so absolutely small that under most circumstances nobody would notice.
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  15. skodaudi
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    skodaudi Member

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    Can highly recommend Custom Code for a smooth power delivery, with power that seems to hold well into the upper rev ranges.

    No massive shove at 2000rpm and then its all over soon after, but nice and progressive.

    I don't get any more noticeable smoke also.
    Very pleased indeed with the Custom Code after years of spending money on all sorts of remaps with previous tdis etc.

    Mines only the 1.9tdi but it goes well enough and having had a tdi before with over 220bhp its not as slow as I thought it would feel at all.
    #15
  16. dunk
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    dunk Member

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    the info about the DSG not been tunable or usable above 200hp is simply not true.

    the dsg clutches are actually much stronger than the manual ones - although officially rated very conservatively, many german and usa tuners are going to about 410-415 lb/ft on this gearbox with no slip or problems at all. - vw had a couple of turbo cars built for them early on in the development cycle running approx 500hp with standard clutch packs and ran them without any problems at all.

    for those running 650nm or more there are uprated clutch packs available but they are pretty expensive.

    my 2.0tdi dsg is running a hybrid turbo with approx 360lb/ft and 240hp without any trouble at all - a lot more than a 'phase 2 remap'

    the exhaust will barely change the noise, let alone power - lose the middle box, get a low pressure back box (or the other way round) and decat the downpipe and you can spin the turbo easier - ie less lag and more boost earlier with more top end, for a few hundred pounds from a custom exhaust maker as devonmikeyboy said - i used pipewerx near preston/southport and they did a beautiful job - after previous poor fit and boomy millteks i wouldnt use them again.
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  17. B17AVM
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    B17AVM The Whoa

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    Ive got a Stage 1, Custom-Coded 140. IMO its a very smooth map, great power and great response. Best mod I ever I think. Im also getting a Milltek fitted nxt week (as well as a Sline spoiler)!!
    Not sure what the Stage 2 would be like, but Im sure if its Custom-Code its gotta be awesome! :thumbsup:
    #17
  18. Evolve
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    Evolve Member

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    Hi,
    We currently have an A3 140 S-Line and remapped to our Evolve Stage One.
    [​IMG]

    The red line is the stage one map and the green one is our 1/4 mile map which is still in development.

    We achieved 360lbs/ft torque on our stage one maps. As a max, our car has made 186bhp with 370lbs/ft torque but we prefer to publish the lower figures.

    Our Stage Two would be conducted on our Dyno and would be customised to your modifications.
    #18
  19. Mikey
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    Mikey Member

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    360LBFT?! OUCH! Clutch raper!
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  20. Evolve
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    Evolve Member

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    Our car has covered 15K miles in 6 months on that map. We like to drive it hard and we have had no issues with clutch slippage.

    The beauty of a custom map is that we can tone down the torque if that is what the customer wants but ultimately, we do everything within safe limits.

    You are more than welcome to take the car for a test drive.:racer:
    #20
  21. Mikey
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    Mikey Member

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    so your running 360/370lbft through the standard 2.0TDI clutch?!! Can it handle that much any longer?! I had a 1.9TDI MK4 Golf that was running 340lbft and the clutch slipped like crazy in no time. Where are you guys based?
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  22. Evolve
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    Evolve Member

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    It's not just about how much torque is delivered.....its how it is delivered thats as important. Like I said, we've been running this map for 6 months through a standard 2.0TDi clutch and no signs of slippage at all.

    We are based in Luton, Beds.
    #22
  23. devonmikeyboy
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    devonmikeyboy As far from JBS as possible !

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    Respected mapping companies and the quoted bhp/torque figure from their stage 1 Audi A3 PD140 map.
    Revo 185 bhp 290 lb torque.HERE
    Custom Code 180 bhp 285 lb torque.HERE
    Jabbasport 175 bhp 305 lb torque.HERE
    Evolve Stage One 178bhp and 360 lb torque. One of the lowest bhp claims but the heightest torque by 55lb of any other.
    360lb torque is no way in the safe limit of the GT1749V, it can be done but not safely as that is the sort of torque figure you get from a Turbo Dynamic stage 2 MD376 or Allard VT2 hybrid turbo running a lot more BHP. A low bhp but very high torque figure will make a smokey diesel car.
    Stock clutch on the PD130/150/160 has a max rating of 300lb torque from VAG which is why companies don`t have stage 1 maps running higher and the same applies to the different designed clutch on the PD140/170.
    I would just like to state i have never heard of Evolve and don`t have anything against the company or the people that work there.
    #23
  24. Evolve
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    Evolve Member

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    As mentioned before, we can reduce the torque for customers who want it reduced. Our car is not smokey running 179/360. We have been running the car 6 months and covered 15K miles!!!

    I also mentioned before its not so much how much torque but how its delivered.

    This car is our demo car and 360lb/ft of torque hasn't done it any harm. If you don't push the boundries, you'll never know whats possible.

    We are quite well known in the BMW scene and have had impressive results from the 335D as can be seen on e90 post forum. One of our mapped cars ran in the recent Fighting Torque event and beat a CSL and we have had a number of our cars featured in BMW magazines.

    A couple of people off this forum have had maps done from us and have been very happy with the results thus far.

    I don't want to enter into a tit for tat debate. I'm more interested in what we can and have achieved thus far. We are quite happy to allow prospective customers to drive our test car as the results speak for themselves.
    #24
  25. NHN
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    NHN Modmetractor

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    Does concern me having so much torque on the dsg, what do you consider safe power setting for this type of box?
    #25
  26. devonmikeyboy
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    devonmikeyboy As far from JBS as possible !

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    I too am not interested in a tit for ta debate but i am interested in is FACTS and discussion which is the whole point of internet forums. You post torque figures 60 odd lb torque higher then any other mapping company from a turbo that has been around for many years on an engine that has been around for several years and mapped by very large companies like Superchips,Revo,Custom Code etc who have been mapping VAG cars for longer then your company has probably been trading.
    FACT 1 The LUK/Sachs made flywheel and clutch in the PD 130/140/150/160/140/170 has a max rating from VAG of 300lb torque or do you disagree with me on that figure?
    FACT 2 Sachs and Helix make uprated clutches. Sachs has a very good site so if you click HERE you will go to the Sachs uprated clutch for the 2.0 PD BKD engine that is in the Audi A3 plus many other VAG models which states:
    "SRE Performance Clutch Set
    SRE pressure plate and SRE rigid organic clutch disc Transmittable torque 480Nm."
    480Nm is 354 lb torque which is less then your peak torque rating and this is an uprated clutch with an organic disc and uprated pressure plate. You state though that"we do everything within safe limits"
    "its not so much how much torque but how its delivered" well if your used to diesel tuning and want a clutch to last you should know that it`s the area under the graph that counts not the peak number. Diesel tuning is about having a smooth linear line not a huge peak low down with is bad for transmission,clutch and driveablity.
    As quoted from Custom Code/JBS website:"DIESEL 2.0L EDC16 140 BHP [​IMG][​IMG] MINIMISING LOW RPM TORQUE SPIKES ENSURES SMOOTH LINEAR POWER DELIVERY. CUSTOM-CODE ARE PROUND TO RELEASE PERFORMANCE SOFTWARE FOR THE LATEST EDC16 DIESEL 140 BHP A3
    WITH LOW END TORQUE SPIKES MINIMISED YOU CAN BE ASURED OF SMOOTH LINEAR POWER DELIVERY."
    As to the torque graph i will now compare your torque to Superchips which can be seen HERE. I will quote standard then Superchips then Evolve figures.
    2200 rpm 250 lb 295 lb 310 lb
    2500 rpm 250 lb 287 lb 360 lb
    3000 rpm 239 lb 283 lb 310 lb
    3500 rpm 213 lb 272 lb 255 lb
    4000 rpm 191 lb 247 lb 215 lb
    4500 rpm 147 lb 170 lb 130 lb
    It isn`t a fact but in my opinion and probably most other tuners/mappers the torque graph that you posted is terrible and would not make a very good road car since your peak torque figure is just that a big peak then it noise dives. I don`t know how you map your cars but an easy way to get a big torque peak like that is to max out the injector to early so as to have an excess amount of diesel in the cylinders so when the turbo does come on boost at about 2100/2200 rpm the excess diesel suddenly starts to get burned ( not in the right ratio so hence smokey acceleration ) causing a rapid torque spike until the excess diesel is burned up in the cylinders when the torque suddenly starts to dip due to the no more excess diesel to durn.Due to the fact that the massive torque boost has caused the turbo to spool up very quickly the turbo starts to heat up making it loose thermal efficiency plus air inlet temps rise so power bombs through the floor as well. Now i am not saying this is what you are doing when mapping but at 4000 rpm your car has about 108 bhp but Superchip produce 180 bhp.
    As to your statement to me " If you don't push the boundries, you'll never know whats possible." you might want to look at my sig and look at what car i have and how it was modified two years ago which has now had a lot more work done on it and still more work to do including water/methanol injection.
    As already stated i am not out on a witch hunt or some childish slagging match and have no grievance with you, i just want to talk about the fact. If you feel i am wrong about anything i have written please state why you think i am wrong and stating/including some evidence/facts to back up your claim.
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  27. Mikey
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    Mikey Member

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    devonmikeyboy, do you have any experiance with these uprated sachs clutches? whats the pedal feel like? is it OEM like?
    #27
  28. NHN
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    NHN Modmetractor

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    I have to say I read that all way through & did understand the point he's making & what seems a very good point he has made aswell with facts, I look forward to the reply from Evolve cause I to think the mapping that I can understand from the conversation wouldnt neccessarily be very good for the car overall, we all like power but I'd prefer the car parts to last fair while aswell.

    Just out of curiosity Devon, whats your background as you seem quite knowlegable about these things.

    Mikey I mistook you earlier for the DevonMikey when we were posting about the milltek system, I knew it was a Mikey thing, lol.

    Devon I read most of article, still getting great MPG I see, Allard do seem to be a good diesel tuning company huh
    #28
  29. NHN
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    NHN Modmetractor

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    At least someone answered my question about the milltek, I thought it was correct that wouldnt do much for me

    So the dsg is safe above 200bhp then, I didnt say it wasnt tunable or unusable just wasnt good on the clutch, but seems you've disproved that mate thanks, I was intrigued to know this aswell cause I was considering what I could do next.

    so whose map have you got & turbo, wasnt allard by any chance & any links to info about the actual max on the dsg please?

    your exhaust, is it legal on emissions?
    #29
  30. Teejay
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    Teejay Mellow Yellow

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    Yes they are/were. Sadly Lloyd Allard has not been well recently and it looks like the company will be closing down before the end of the year. :bye:
    #30
  31. devonmikeyboy
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    devonmikeyboy As far from JBS as possible !

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    Both Sachs and Helix make very good clutches to a high standard and are the two main uprated clutch manufactures for the VAG range of cars. Helix tends to be slightly more expensive but holds more torque but saying that the Sachs units will be strong enough for what 99.9% of people will use them for. As long as you get an organic sprung drive disc the clutch will be very user friendly and easy to drive with. The peddle might feel slightly harder to push down and i mean slightly as the uprated pressure plate has stronger springs to increase the clamping pressure but personally i prefer that as i find the stock clutch far to soft with little feel to it. Something you might want to read about uprated clutch types HERE

    I just have an interest in tuning VAG diesel engines. I talk to people and surf the net for information but don`t believe anything until i see evidence to back it up, basically it`s my hobby/addiction as i spend most of my spare time and money on diesel tuning.
    Allard's are basically no more as Lloyd has become to ill to continue running the business single handed plus he has other interests he wants to pursue.
    #31
  32. dunk
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    dunk Member

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    turbo is turbodynamics stage 2 hybrid for pd140 -

    you can exchange yours for approx £600 but your car is off the road whilst they do it, you can buy outright for about £1000 or dervdoctor have a spare in stock and can get and exchange one using theirs so your car isnt off the road

    i got dervdoctor to get their spare turbo converted, delivered to my local fitter who changed the turbo for about £180 all in, and ran it using the standard map, then went to see dervdoctor who did a custom map for me for £450 or so.

    this was the easiest way to keep my car on the road - only 1/2 day to fit the turbo and a day round trip for a remap.
    #32
  33. Teejay
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    Teejay Mellow Yellow

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    ok, update to this thread...

    I had a "mufflerectomy" done today. My estimate on the price was a bit off (it cost £100 for 2.5" stainless with twin exits), but the noise difference was correct...

    There is absolutely NO increase in exhaust sound whatsoever!!! There is slightly more turbo noise when lifting off under boost (that's not necessarily a bad thing) and the turbo definitely spins up quicker. Once teamed with a CAI and remap should have some great results.

    PS - thumbs up to Infinity Exhausts in Yate (Bristol) who did a great job in my lunch hour!!! (www.infinity-exhausts.co.uk)
    #33
  34. 6andy69
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    6andy69 Member

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    Are you going to up grade the turbo? I dont think the standard turbo would cope with the extra power and give up! When you start to drive the car hard. My friend had a revo mapped skoda vrs (1.9tdi) and that went through 2 turbos.
    #34
  35. skodaudi
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    skodaudi Member

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    Was really sorry to read that post - Lloyd did quite a bit of work on my old car and always found him a really fascinating bloke to deal with and very knowledgeable..

    End of an era for the TDi modding scene. :(
    #35

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