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Something to look out for when choosing remap..

Discussion in 'A3/S3 Forum (8L Chassis)' started by badger5, Feb 27, 2012.

  1. badger5
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    badger5 www.badger5.co.uk Site Sponsor

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    [Feb 27, 2012]
    Seeing a few cars come thru here these past months for dyno runs etc... and a reasonable number of them from assorted "maps" seem to run them on stock, factory fueling, but up the boost.. They make good power until the egt protection kicks in (talking wideband cars here in the main, with egt protection etc)

    What happens is whilst running bone stock fueling on lambda, whilst upping the boost they also run uber hot.. Often during a power run which only lasts 12secs, egt fuel dump will kick in ~5krpm, and CF timing pull is pinging some unreasonably high numbers (cos its blindingly hot)

    Couple of main reasons this is occuring.
    a) Choice of software used to author the map (not having the correct definitions)
    b) Source of the map may be a German provider, and if TUV approved, are not allowed to alter "emissions" related things, which fueling clearly is. UK resellers of German origin code, may be subject to the fueling being lean vs the boost being asked of it, promoting egt protection, high egt's and high timing pull as a consequence. Prolonged egt's is not going to be helpfull for the hardware.. (cracks etc in manifold, turbo hotside etc being a common side effect long term)

    The irony of this, is whilst its running factory 0.95 lambda on 100% load under its increased boost, its going to make good power, until its gets too hot and it all falls off rapidly in protection mode.. If you see just a dyno plot of power & torque, ask for the afr and boost to go with it.

    If you have vag-com or access to it, and a wideband car... blocks to check would be 031 for lambda request and actual, and 112 for egt, 115 for requsted & actual boost... 020 for timing pull...

    We saw a recent thread posted by someone asking if their logs looked "ok" which was comprehensively answered "no" for the reasons mentioned. The company flashing the car did'nt write the code, they installed it.


    Beware of this lean running and higher boost. your hardware wont thank you for driving it into egt protection & fuel dumping.

    12sec power run in 5th gear load on my dyno brings it in at just over 5krpm typically... imagine when and if you are motoring sustained full throttle, longer.. eak!

    muchos glowy, muchos hot....

    be carefull when choosing your map provider. ask some pertinent questions before parting with your wedge

    Some "mappers", be they mobile or fixed, may be unaware of whats been done and in good faith think they've installed a nice good safe map. They cant read the map to know whats being asked for, they will likely not have those kind of tools (££)


    Those with dyno's, loggers, widebands however have no excuse for not testing what they have installed. (ignorance is no defence)
    #1
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  3. liquids3
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    liquids3 Member

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    [Feb 27, 2012]
    Hence alot of cracked turbo's mani's,i will be up for remap after hybrid has arrived,+ rods,better start saving!
    #2
  4. aragorn
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    aragorn "Stick a V8 in it!" Staff Member Moderator VCDS Map User

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    [Feb 27, 2012]
    Good advice there.

    Its pretty scary that "professionals" your paying to tune your car are using incomplete definition files and either know they're incomplete and have chosen to ignore it, or even worse are completely unawares!
    #3
  5. beachbuggy
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    beachbuggy Well-Known Member

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    [Feb 27, 2012]
    It does amaze me that this happens, Firstly it's bad show to run 0.95 at WOT on boost, secondly letting the egt protection 'rescue' the engine is not the proper use of the function, thirdly it's lazy. LAMFA is 1 map and even if you changed all the values to 0.85 at everything over 85% load you'd still be better off( not ideal ) but would prevent high egts and lean conditions.

    I am in no way in a position to critise pro tuners but I am truly shocked at what is passed off as a remap!

    if you stick with Bill, Nick or Rick you won't go wrong .
    Last edited: Feb 27, 2012
    #4
  6. smurfworth
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    smurfworth Well-Known Member

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    [Feb 27, 2012]
    This is interesting to know, so basically if you stick to well known brands such as Revo, yourself, and R tech you should be ok?
    Would R tech mobile be classed as a "safe" map too?
    #5
  7. vanilla_ice
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    vanilla_ice Member

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    [Feb 27, 2012]
    We all know who Bill is. Who are Nick and Rick?
    #6
  8. StaceyS3
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    StaceyS3 Well-Known Member

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    [Feb 27, 2012]
    Not always well known "reputable" brands as i have found with more subjects than just my map i had!

    Bill is now always going to be doing my mapping after experiances and mess's that hes sorted for me....well thats if he still wants to ;)
    #7
  9. badger5
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    badger5 www.badger5.co.uk Site Sponsor

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    [Feb 27, 2012]
    They crack... std they crack.. run em hot they will crack faster. more likely too

    thing is, even if they have bought some "well known" tuner tools, the map definitions are plain and simply wrong... lambda on me7.x in particular.. Shocking but sadly true. Its sux..

    I dont subscribe to tuning in protection map, forcing the ecu to think its hot personally.. IF its hot its hot.. and let it protect.
    if you have access to adjust the lambda request why not use it? leave protection maps to protect. I know its discussed in nef on different approaches.. but I know what I would rather do.

    all the above have sorted fueling and can do the job right. revo on k04 cars is spikey very high initial boost.. it makes me nervous on high milage 10 year old cars. I have clipped peak boost via mbc some to keep the mid to top end performance without the fear of rod bending breaking thump of torque/boost that can also occur, unchecked. (call me chicken if you like)

    I have seen some well "named" tuners put out lean as you like maps also tho. Mystakes maybe. I dont know.

    just be carefull and ask some pointed questions when you choose.
    dyno before and after, with full logging of boost, afr, vagcom or other logging is what seperates the good from the others i think
    #8
  10. badger5
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    badger5 www.badger5.co.uk Site Sponsor

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    [Feb 27, 2012]
    Your problem brand was of German Origin tho... vis a vis....... they're stuck with doing it that way.. Its the BS nonsense to justify why its "ok" which takes the biscuit tho.. egts >1000'c sure.. very smart - hehe
    #9
  11. aragorn
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    aragorn "Stick a V8 in it!" Staff Member Moderator VCDS Map User

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    [Feb 27, 2012]
    Nick runs RTech.

    Rick runs Unicorn Motor Developments.
    #10
  12. S3 Paul
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    S3 Paul Well-Known Member Regional Rep

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    [Feb 27, 2012]
    This seems a bit of a "be worried if you havent been to see me" kind of a post,
    Just saying "named" tuners means just about everybody !
    Mine had a AMD "chipped" remap when i got it and when i took it to JBS they said the map was shocking and was mega lean,
    I then swapped to Customcode phase 1
    A year later the turbo. head and mani cracked, I was told the damage done would have started when the AMD map was on ,
    Since then ive had a full rebuild with the rods and things that needed to be uprated sorted,
    My car was used to trial the JBS05 hybrid kit and i think all the figures and graphs did the rounds of most forums...
    I think its fine, I mentioned the AFR my innovate gauge has shown 13.0 when help wideopen for prolonged runs and non VAG tuners said this was dangerous. I asked on here and most said its fine??
    #11
  13. aragorn
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    aragorn "Stick a V8 in it!" Staff Member Moderator VCDS Map User

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    [Feb 27, 2012]
    I think thats what he was getting at anyway.

    Normal load enrichment should be done using LAMFA, and the protection stuff should be left to protect the engine as intended.

    Some tuners seem to turn the TABGBTS right down and tune full load fuelling with LAMBTS which seems a bit hacky.


    The oddness seems to occur because VAG themselves dont actually use LAMFA, as they're tuning for economy, so basically set the engine to target lambda 1 until EGT protection kicks in, and a lot of tuners simply copy this approach, rather than actually reading the bosch documentation and using LAMFA properly.

    On a stock engine making 8psi of boost, lambda requests of 0.95 to 1 are passable. On a tuned one running 18psi, they are not!
    Last edited: Feb 27, 2012
    #12
  14. badger5
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    badger5 www.badger5.co.uk Site Sponsor

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    [Feb 27, 2012]
    I think I know what dan was describing.. I was highlighting some folks on nef choose another path. not one for me.

    Well.. my theory is... You cant compare vag's tuning of a stock car with aftermarket wants and needs.. They have a strict emissions envelope to achieve, which they can by running lambdas 1.00 across the board with their small compromise of running 0.95 on 100% loads wot...

    those who see a lambda map presented in their software which also displays a number which looks like lambda 1, may well be adjusting it thinking its done it........ but 1st run and log would confirm it did diddly squat (if they in fact looked at all) - Reason for why - wrong label on wrong set of data.. as supplied by the software tool ! DOH!

    the more you look, the more you think, REALLY?
    #13
  15. superkarl
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    superkarl MAN OF STEEL

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    [Feb 27, 2012]
    its more of a 'check and ask about what you're getting' post.

    people should be more interested in exactly what is being done to their cars, they should know the basics when going to get remapped, rather than handing it over and not saying a word, then driving home with a quicker car thinking everything is hunky dory. just because its quicker doesnt mean its right.

    i think in the time you got your first map to now, things may have changed a little and big brands are more knowledgable in what they're doing, and know the ill effects of bad fuelling.
    it covers the companies asses too if they bother to do the job right, rather than doing it blind to afr's.

    this is the reason forums are so good to car enthusiasts, without posts like this people would have even less of an idea of whats going on under the bonnet. now they will be sure to check and ask the right questions.
    #14
  16. S3 Paul
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    S3 Paul Well-Known Member Regional Rep

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    [Feb 27, 2012]
    I think a complete novice would still be left with either more worries or confusion ,
    To be honest. Im not sure i would start on the tuning route with this car.
    There are more horror stories than happy campers. Ive been on both sides of that fence myself
    #15
  17. aragorn
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    aragorn "Stick a V8 in it!" Staff Member Moderator VCDS Map User

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    [Feb 27, 2012]
    Good work Rick!
    #16
  18. voorhees
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    voorhees Moderator Staff Member Moderator

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    [Feb 27, 2012]
    I would have to disagree Paul,the very nature of a forum brings people on here with problems asking for help IMHO
    #17
  19. S3 Paul
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    S3 Paul Well-Known Member Regional Rep

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    [Feb 27, 2012]
    I know the forum does. I mean in the real world ( people I actualy see) seem to nearly all have a stone in their shoe "pressure drop between turbo and throttle valve " or some other issue brought forward by modding .
    Maybe it's just me but I regret not holding out for an s4
    #18
  20. <tuffty/>
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    <tuffty/> Badger 5 Edition Staff Member Moderator

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    [Feb 27, 2012]
    Seen horror stories on tuning these too... no car is actually any better than the rest... 1.8t's are obviously being discussed here as thats the engine we all have but the same tuning rules apply to other engines in the VAG range... a TUV map for an S4 is just as likely to suffer more boost no fuel.. not seen one yet as never had an S4 on the dyno... (for obvious reasons :))

    <tuffty/>
    #19
  21. Rick @ Unicorn Motor Dev.
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    Rick @ Unicorn Motor Dev. Site Sponsor Site Sponsor

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    [Feb 27, 2012]
    Plenty of S4's with *******ised remaps too :)

    Rick
    #20
  22. jezzy
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    jezzy Member

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    [Feb 27, 2012]
    so what Qs should we be asking when getting your pride and joy mapped?
    Thks
    #21
  23. superkarl
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    superkarl MAN OF STEEL

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    [Feb 27, 2012]
    as bill said in the original post:
    'If you have vag-com or access to it, and a wideband car... blocks to check would be 031 for lambda request and actual, and 112 for egt, 115 for requsted & actual boost... 020 for timing pull'

    these are things any thorough VAG/1.8t tuner should be logging when running a car on the dyno, and/or road testing once a map is loaded.

    i think there is guides in the stickies regarding what exactly to look for, e.g the figures, when logging the above blocks.
    #22
  24. jack.s
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    jack.s Member

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    [Feb 28, 2012]
    Does anybody know if AMD have safe maps to use these days?
    #23
  25. Westy
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    Westy Double Dark Side! Diesel & 8P

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    [Feb 28, 2012]
    I wish this advice was around 2 years ago.

    A new turbo, fuel pump and map all because of a cheap generic map :(
    #24
  26. <tuffty/>
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    <tuffty/> Badger 5 Edition Staff Member Moderator

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    [Feb 28, 2012]
    Lets not get into a discussion over whos maps may or may not be safe or otherwise... this thread is about making everyone aware that these maps exist... its not a witch hunt...

    If you are taking your car to a tuner for a remap then be informed by this discussion and ask the questions.... if you have a map and you are unsure then take this up with your tuner or at the very least log the car yourself (if you have wideband then you can see the fuel requests and actual as Bill has mention in the first post)

    <tuffty/>
    #25
  27. djx11b
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    djx11b Member

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    [Feb 28, 2012]
    I'm lucky as posted my results on here and now i'm back to stock and will be getting a custom remap soon.

    If you have a remap guys would get it checked save yourself damaging your car.
    #26
  28. S3 Paul
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    S3 Paul Well-Known Member Regional Rep

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    [Feb 28, 2012]
    Paul,
    I wasnt saying an S4 was a better or stronger engine.
    I simply ment i would have bought an Avant and been happy as it was, Then just thrown money at the golf i have for weekends.
    #27
  29. <tuffty/>
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    <tuffty/> Badger 5 Edition Staff Member Moderator

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    [Feb 28, 2012]
    I understand mate... in the context of the post it wasn't obvious :)

    <tuffty/>
    #28
  30. badger5
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    badger5 www.badger5.co.uk Site Sponsor

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    [Feb 28, 2012]
    You are the typical hater I have to suffer on forums - FFS man..
    get a grip

    I am highlighting major deficiencies in some peoples remaps... which risks damage to YOUR cars.
    If this is being taken as "I'm perfecy, come to me, everyone else is rubbish" its because YOU are reading it WRONG!

    I could easily name several companies "maps" which are lean as feck....... BUT, I have'nt and wont.... thats pointless, and simply sets to aggrivate and cause angst, stir up **** etc. That is pointless.

    LOOK for YOURSELVES, judge for YOURSELF, your logs, and you will have some FACTS, and DATA on whats occuring.
    Simply relying on x,y,z tuner slagging off another (and we all know some do this a lot<<stupid imho) to promote their offering at the expence of others is poor practice.

    I am pointing out many maps, often of German Origin, and/Or often written by software tools which incorrectly display maps, these lean as you like maps are being installed onto YOUR CARS.

    DO NOT remotely think this is promotion of me..... It is not, its INFORMATION for YOU... Your choice where to go who to use. I personally could'nt care less where you go or who you use. (and yes, your post has pissed me off)
    #29
  31. badger5
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    badger5 www.badger5.co.uk Site Sponsor

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    [Feb 28, 2012]
    have you actually read my post??
    #30
  32. Westy
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    Westy Double Dark Side! Diesel & 8P

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    [Feb 28, 2012]
    This is what you get for trying to help Bill :banghead:
    #31
  33. Buzzer
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    [Feb 28, 2012]
    In fairness bill, it is a valid question when you go to get your car remapped
    and like me, If you don't know much about fueling , lamba, egt,timing etc.
    superb info and thanks, but jezzy might be looking for Qs in laymans terms?
    #32
    jezzy likes this.
  34. badger5
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    badger5 www.badger5.co.uk Site Sponsor

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    [Feb 29, 2012]
    lol

    In fairnes... hehe

    Please Read post #1
    excerpt below:


    BLOCK 031: You should be seeing 0.8x lambda's under boost, and NOT 0.95 lambda's under boost (which is factory settings)
    In afr terms this is afr's in the 12's Not 14's

    BLOCK112: egt's, which start to trigger into protection fuel dumping from 920'c as std. If the map is running 0.95lambda under boost the egt's will get high which will also promote timing pull... see blow

    BLOCK020: CF timing corrections... You dont want to see these going consistently beyond 6... but if egt's are getting hot these will be higher, and if fueling is 0.95 under boost, egt's will be high, CF's will also go high.....

    BLOCK115: Requested and Actual boost... so you know its boosting over stock... and to what level (as much as you can see being 1.5bar from the cars map sensor)




    Last edited: Feb 29, 2012
    #33
    olly quattro and jezzy like this.
  35. Buzzer
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    Buzzer Member

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    [Feb 29, 2012]
    Edumacated dear sir!
    #34
  36. slydog18
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    slydog18 Member

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    [Feb 29, 2012]
    I have to say that i REALLY like the cut of your Jib Badger...........having asked you about something before in a PM and reading your honest opinions without getting into a slanging match I can honestly say that you are the man I am looking to when my car is gonna get mapped..............only prob is you are 2.5 hours away !!!
    #35
  37. badger5
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    badger5 www.badger5.co.uk Site Sponsor

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    [Mar 1, 2012]
    your welcome
    #36
  38. olly quattro
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    olly quattro Member

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    [Mar 5, 2012]
    This is a fantastic thread thanks for your time to get these issues out into the public domain bill,
    #37

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