1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

Soham girls

Discussion in 'General Chat' started by TheTonsta, Dec 17, 2003.

  1. TheTonsta
    Offline

    TheTonsta Member

    Joined:
    Aug 22, 2003
    Messages:
    95
    Likes Received:
    0
    [Dec 17, 2003]
    They've found the ba**ard guilty. Two life sentences. He should be hanged. Harsh I know, but totally fair IMO. Can you believe he already had allegations of rape and sexual misconduct against him a while back?

    Although the Soham girls' parents now have the justice they deserved, how can the rest of us believe that the system for dealing with sex offenders and the like will help prevent any future tragedies? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/burningmad.gif

    Sorry, me / soap box ...

    Good luck to the lil' girls' parents.
    #1
  2. Ads

    Ads

    [Sep 18, 2014]

  3. MushroomMan
    Offline

    MushroomMan Sucemabite

    Joined:
    Mar 12, 2003
    Messages:
    343
    Likes Received:
    0
    [Dec 17, 2003]
    I can't help feeling sorry for Maxime Carr. I know she withheld critical information but I ask you how many of our partners would prefer to believe in our innocence rather than face up to the gruesome reality that they were living with a brutal murderer. You get suck in to relationships and we all want to believe the best.

    Naive, stupid, self-deluding she was perhaps; but not malicious or duplicitous?
    #2
  4. Khufu
    Offline

    Khufu Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 2, 2003
    Messages:
    5,703
    Likes Received:
    30
    [Dec 17, 2003]
    What I find strange is that your not allowed to know about the accused's past in case it affects your decision. isn't that just accessing the accused character? What would have happened if he go off due to lack of evidence and all this past history came to light?
    #3
  5. gdwood
    Offline

    gdwood New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 12, 2003
    Messages:
    28
    Likes Received:
    0
    [Dec 17, 2003]
    Golf Bygone,

    You and that one juror must be the only people in the entire country to feel sorry for Carr. She deserves no pity; she deliberately obstructed the police investigation throughout and her malice is proved by her failure to tell the truth to the police until the last minute, despite many opportunities to do so much earlier. And you're surely not telling us that you think she didn't know about Huntley's past?!!

    42 months is too good for her; she'll be out in the Spring. Your pity is wasted on Carr. You'd be better saving it for the ones who truly deserve it: the poor parents.
    #4
  6. TheTonsta
    Offline

    TheTonsta Member

    Joined:
    Aug 22, 2003
    Messages:
    95
    Likes Received:
    0
    [Dec 17, 2003]
    Which is why I find the present system for dealing with sex offenders in particular so disgusting.

    For instance, a chap goes into a court room accused of raping a girl. The evidence is good but the jury are undecided whether it was actually rape or gross sexual misconduct. The jury are not allowed to know that in the past the guy has had a conviction of rape already. So they rule that it is only gross misconduct and he walks free.

    Isn't that just WRONG?!

    And I too feel sorry for Maxine Carr. OK, so she lied to protect her boyfriend/lover whatever. But quite apart from protecting your loved ones, I'm sure she could't bring herself to consider the possibility that the person she was with could be such a monster.
    #5
  7. audi_girl
    Offline

    audi_girl Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 2, 2003
    Messages:
    1,038
    Likes Received:
    1
    [Dec 17, 2003]
    I feel sorry for her, she was just naive and stupid (maybe) - if your woman asked you to give her an alibi, would you do it? Would you actually believe she was guilty, or just assume she was innocent..........
    #6
  8. TheTonsta
    Offline

    TheTonsta Member

    Joined:
    Aug 22, 2003
    Messages:
    95
    Likes Received:
    0
    [Dec 17, 2003]
    I'd assume she was innocent because A) I love her, B) I wouldn't DREAM of my other half being capable of doing something like that, C) I'd never be able to admit that I could be going out or married to a monster...

    What would that make ME look like?? Very shallow I know, but human nature no?
    #7
  9. audi_girl
    Offline

    audi_girl Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 2, 2003
    Messages:
    1,038
    Likes Received:
    1
    [Dec 18, 2003]
    Exactly - which is probably (although we don't know) why she gave him an alibi..... giving her the benefit of the doubt and all that...
    #8
  10. AlexStanley
    Offline

    AlexStanley Member

    Joined:
    Jan 3, 2003
    Messages:
    621
    Likes Received:
    1
    [Dec 18, 2003]
    I think she was just the wrong person in the wrong place at the wrong time, seeing the wrong bloke... Poor girl...
    #9
  11. MushroomMan
    Offline

    MushroomMan Sucemabite

    Joined:
    Mar 12, 2003
    Messages:
    343
    Likes Received:
    0
    [Dec 18, 2003]
    [ QUOTE ]
    gdwood said:
    Golf Bygone,

    You and that one juror must be the only people in the entire country to feel sorry for Carr. She deserves no pity

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Fortunately judging by reactions above I am not the only one. It worries me that she could be treated like a Myra Hindley punchbag in prison by those less-than-understanding hypocrites and bullies. Her real punishment will be living with her conscience. That I suspect will be hard enough.
    #10
  12. RichA3Turbo
    Offline

    RichA3Turbo ...Watching you! Staff Member Moderator

    Joined:
    Jan 6, 2003
    Messages:
    5,090
    Likes Received:
    4
    [Dec 18, 2003]
    [ QUOTE ]
    Golf Bygone said:
    [ QUOTE ]
    gdwood said:
    Golf Bygone,

    You and that one juror must be the only people in the entire country to feel sorry for Carr. She deserves no pity

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Fortunately judging by reactions above I am not the only one. It worries me that she could be treated like a Myra Hindley punchbag in prison by those less-than-understanding hypocrites and bullies. Her real punishment will be living with her conscience. That I suspect will be hard enough.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Definately... The sentence isnt such a big deal... not that long really.. but living with it for the rest of her life... Now thats REAL punishment!

    Rich
    #11
  13. AndyMac
    Offline

    AndyMac Moderator Staff Member Moderator

    Joined:
    Jun 10, 2003
    Messages:
    9,833
    Likes Received:
    30
    [Dec 18, 2003]
    Sorry, but am I missing something here? She knew he'd done it, she saw the bodies in the boot, she talked on tape about the girls in the past tense.
    OK initially she may have wanted to believe him, but once she found out the truth, no matter what his excuse, or the most feeble explanation was, she had only one choice and she didn't take it.
    The only consellation is that I don't think Mr Huntley will be alive long in prison. I think Saddam would be treated better.
    #12
  14. MushroomMan
    Offline

    MushroomMan Sucemabite

    Joined:
    Mar 12, 2003
    Messages:
    343
    Likes Received:
    0
    [Dec 18, 2003]
    [ QUOTE ]
    AndyMac said:
    Sorry, but am I missing something here? She knew he'd done it, she saw the bodies in the boot, she talked on tape about the girls in the past tense.
    OK initially she may have wanted to believe him, but once she found out the truth, no matter what his excuse, or the most feeble explanation was, she had only one choice and she didn't take it.
    The only consellation is that I don't think Mr Huntley will be alive long in prison. I think Saddam would be treated better.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Yes you are missing something here. She didn't see the bodies in the boot. They were moved the same night of the murder to Lakenheath while Maxime was in Grimsby, so get your facts straight. Yes she spoke in the past tense about them before the bodies were discovered which suggests - only suggests - that she subconsciously feared the worst. But then, in her defence, it is only natural after such long period missing to assume the worst - afterall the police reckon its normally bad news if missing kids are gone longer than three or four days.

    She buried reality and wanted to think the best of the man she loved - against all the mounting evidence. The fact, for example, that Huntley had obsessively cleaned the house even though she always did the cleaning. And then the way he must have kept changing his story. I guess she just didn't want to accept the fightening reality and who can blame her. Afterall it is horrific.

    "Human kind cannot bear very much reality"
    T S Eliot
    #13
  15. sash
    Offline

    sash Member

    Joined:
    Oct 1, 2003
    Messages:
    171
    Likes Received:
    0
    [Dec 18, 2003]
    Just makes me think that when i have kids im gonna have to do all these checks on teachers for myself cos i can no longer trust the government to keep these types of people out of schools (and preferably out of society).

    Im sure a similar situation was in the news a while ago where a peadophile had managed to get a position in a primary school.

    How many more of these types of people currently hold these types of jobs??? I hope the goverment does an investigation into this.
    #14
  16. AlexStanley
    Offline

    AlexStanley Member

    Joined:
    Jan 3, 2003
    Messages:
    621
    Likes Received:
    1
    [Dec 18, 2003]
    [ QUOTE ]
    Golf Bygone said:
    Yes she spoke in the past tense about them before the bodies were discovered which suggests - only suggests - that she subconsciously feared the worst.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Don't forget either that she'd just left her job as an assistant, which could be another reason why she spoke of them in the past tense - she was no longer involved with them on a day-to-day basis.

    Where, exactly, did it say that she had seen the bodies in the boot? I've followed the whole thing quite closely and I can't recall that at all.
    #15
  17. TheTonsta
    Offline

    TheTonsta Member

    Joined:
    Aug 22, 2003
    Messages:
    95
    Likes Received:
    0
    [Dec 18, 2003]
    [ QUOTE ]
    s4sh said:
    Just makes me think that when i have kids im gonna have to do all these checks on teachers for myself cos i can no longer trust the government to keep these types of people out of schools (and preferably out of society).

    Im sure a similar situation was in the news a while ago where a peadophile had managed to get a position in a primary school.

    How many more of these types of people currently hold these types of jobs??? I hope the goverment does an investigation into this.


    [/ QUOTE ]

    You seen the latest news on the BBC website? Apparently most local counils and authorities don't actually know the full backgrounds of the majority of the staff working in our schools. Scary!!

    And on another note, educating my future kids - I actually don't think I'll educate them in England if I can because I don't think the education system is getting any better. If anything it's getting worse. You know it's no longer compulsory to study another language up to GCSE level? Kids can come out of school having only done English, and even then look at the state of spelling/grammar and speech?

    In the Netherlands for instance, all kids speak English, Dutch and German. Most also speak French. And all from an early age.

    I'm ranting again. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/froggie_red.gif
    #16
  18. MushroomMan
    Offline

    MushroomMan Sucemabite

    Joined:
    Mar 12, 2003
    Messages:
    343
    Likes Received:
    0
    [Dec 18, 2003]
    She never saw the bodies in the boot. From what I understand, Huntley took them to Lakenheath that night and then the following day removed the boot lining and replaced it with an old carpet. He also went to get his tyres changed in Ely, even though they were still okay, and got the fitter to change the number plate on the invoice - all while Maxime was in Grimsby. I am not saying she was innocent - she withheld vital evidence - but we should at least get the facts straight before passing judgement.
    #17
  19. AndyMac
    Offline

    AndyMac Moderator Staff Member Moderator

    Joined:
    Jun 10, 2003
    Messages:
    9,833
    Likes Received:
    30
    [Dec 18, 2003]
    There was a witness who said she had seen both of them looking in Huntley's boot, and Maxine had her hand over her mouth and was sobbing.
    I'm guessing with all the bleeding hearts on here for poor old lying, duplicitous Maxine, that none of you have kids.
    I can't even begin to imagine what the families of those girls have been going through, but if anyone hurt my boy, the law, I'm afraid goes out the window.
    You're not telling me that she lived with that evil bastard and didn't already suspect something, even before the girls went missing? A tad naive don't you think?
    #18
  20. gdwood
    Offline

    gdwood New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 12, 2003
    Messages:
    28
    Likes Received:
    0
    [Dec 18, 2003]
    [ QUOTE ]
    AndyMac said:
    There was a witness who said she had seen both of them looking in Huntley's boot, and Maxine had her hand over her mouth and was sobbing.
    I'm guessing with all the bleeding hearts on here for poor old lying, duplicitous Maxine, that none of you have kids.
    I can't even begin to imagine what the families of those girls have been going through, but if anyone hurt my boy, the law, I'm afraid goes out the window.
    You're not telling me that she lived with that evil bastard and didn't already suspect something, even before the girls went missing? A tad naive don't you think?

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Spot on, AndyMac. How many of you naive Carr supporters would like her to teach your kids when they let her out of prison? Your attitude to her is pathetic and typical of a country that cares more about criminals than victims.
    How about some expressions of sympathy for the families of the poor girls, rather than wasting it on that worthless, lying bitch?
    #19
  21. MushroomMan
    Offline

    MushroomMan Sucemabite

    Joined:
    Mar 12, 2003
    Messages:
    343
    Likes Received:
    0
    [Dec 19, 2003]
    Yes a witness saw Maxime sobbing whilst allegedly "examining the boot with Huntley". This was after he had replaced the original boot lining with a carpet and so she was not - as you originally stated - looking at the bodies. It was not clear what the argument was about either so I cannot see that you can conclude anything about what Maxime knew from this. The allegation from the witness was also with the benefit of hindsight.

    From her tapped phonecalls in prison it is clear that she believed - or wanted to believe - Huntley right up to the time after he was remanded and, in fact, she said then he had never admitted to her that "it had been an accident". She found out about his confession from a third party. She had always wanted to believe that the children had come to the house and left but that Huntley had asked her to lie because he was afraid of "being fitted up." This was the belief she clung to against all odds and out of a misguided sense of loyalty to the man she loved.

    Yes I have a child so amazingly you are not unique, even if it is rather lonely sitting in your glasshouse. I would hope the legal system treats my child as fairly and I am pleased that the jurors came to the right decision, and that ignorant lynch-mobsters have not won with indescriminate vengefulness.

    No-one is denying the terrible grief that those parents will suffer. Justice was done and Huntley is away for good now. But let's keep to the facts and not twist them to fit our own perverted version of events.
    #20
  22. audi_girl
    Offline

    audi_girl Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 2, 2003
    Messages:
    1,038
    Likes Received:
    1
    [Dec 19, 2003]
    Of course there's sympathy for the little girls and anyone who knew them, their families etc. It's a terrible terrible thing that should never have happened, and the incompetence of the authorities in allowing Huntley to be employed is something that completely escapes me!

    But, that doesn't mean Maxine was anything other than short sighted and a bit stupid. If she is guilty then that's a different story, but we can't assume...
    #21
  23. Leddy
    Offline

    Leddy Member

    Joined:
    Oct 17, 2003
    Messages:
    213
    Likes Received:
    0
    [Dec 19, 2003]
    This terrible case has highlighted a shortfall in the system. The police have been left with egg on their faces for not spotting Huntleys potential threat to young girls.

    What I would ask the people on here is how this could have been prevented? I haven't been following this as closley as some of you obviously have, but it seems that because he was never convicted of any of the previous incidents the danger was never spotted?

    Should previous accusations that are not proved be available to potential employers?

    Some people would argue not, its like having no points on your licence but paying higher insurance premiums because you were seen driving fast once!

    How do you protect the innocent from being discriminated against while ensuring the safety of all?

    There are no easy answers, thats why he slipped through, i just hope the positive to come from this is more vigilance in areas where people work with children.

    #22
  24. audi_girl
    Offline

    audi_girl Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 2, 2003
    Messages:
    1,038
    Likes Received:
    1
    [Dec 19, 2003]
    I think part of the problem is that he changed his surname to "Nixon", and when the police check was carried out, it was done using Nixon, whereas previous history was under "Huntley".

    He had been convicted of burglary and charged with rape (I think), but the others were all just accusations.....
    #23
  25. Mutley
    Offline

    Mutley Member

    Joined:
    Jan 3, 2003
    Messages:
    67
    Likes Received:
    0
    [Dec 19, 2003]
    Todays police have their hands tied since the emphasis has shifted away from catching the 'hard to get' criminals (high effort : low financial return), towards low effort : high financial return. Just witness the speed camera / safety van farce.
    Unfortunately, this has been going on for several years, and like any corporation, once this rot starts, it festers and old skills are lost. The police will soon be so tied by regulation and standard operational procedures, that any common sense initiative of the sort that could have prevented the Soham tragedy will be lost forever.
    Unless we ever get a government with the guts to change things (Government / Guts - I don't think so...), more of the same will happen, and the more complex criminals like this bastard know this is the case.
    Things are only going to get worse. I think we will see the rise of private investigation companies which do the real detective work (which must be paid for by the individual who would like, say, school teachers checked out), and the police will be left to do their revenue-earning rubbish.

    Sorry to present such a grey image of our future society.
    #24
  26. AlexStanley
    Offline

    AlexStanley Member

    Joined:
    Jan 3, 2003
    Messages:
    621
    Likes Received:
    1
    [Dec 19, 2003]
    [ QUOTE ]
    audi girl said:
    If she is guilty then that's a different story, but we can't assume...

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Didn't the jury decide that she wasn't guilty though? I would have thought that because the jury 'decided' this, that it would put an end to speculation...?

    (Not aiming this at you, Jo, just trying to remind everyone of the point of the jury /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif )
    #25
  27. gdwood
    Offline

    gdwood New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 12, 2003
    Messages:
    28
    Likes Received:
    0
    [Dec 19, 2003]
    [ QUOTE ]
    Alex Stanley said:
    [ QUOTE ]
    audi girl said:
    If she is guilty then that's a different story, but we can't assume...

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Didn't the jury decide that she wasn't guilty though? I would have thought that because the jury 'decided' this, that it would put an end to speculation...?

    (Not aiming this at you, Jo, just trying to remind everyone of the point of the jury /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif )

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Quite right Alex, and let's not forget the effect on the parents of what Carr was convicted of. The judge, when sentencing her, used words to the effect that, by her actions, she increased the parents' suffering. Carr is a convicted criminal who deserves whatever punishment she will get from the system (which is far too little).

    Anyway, all you Carr supporters will no doubt be pleased to hear that when she is released from her open prison in May, our taxes will be put to good use by providing her with a new identity and employment, so she can carry on with her life as though nothing had happened, unhindered by any stigma caused by her conviction. British justice at its best, eh?
    #26
  28. RichA3Turbo
    Offline

    RichA3Turbo ...Watching you! Staff Member Moderator

    Joined:
    Jan 6, 2003
    Messages:
    5,090
    Likes Received:
    4
    [Dec 19, 2003]
    [ QUOTE ]
    gdwood said:
    [ QUOTE ]
    Alex Stanley said:
    [ QUOTE ]
    audi girl said:
    our taxes will be put to good use by providing her with a new identity and employment, so she can carry on with her life as though nothing had happened, unhindered by any stigma caused by her conviction. British justice at its best, eh?

    [/ QUOTE ]

    thing is with that tho,

    her face aint exactly the most 'common' if you see what i mean... it kinda stand out a bit.. IMO anyway.

    Rich
    #27
  29. simont
    Offline

    simont Member

    Joined:
    May 4, 2003
    Messages:
    116
    Likes Received:
    0
    [Dec 19, 2003]
    tonight's London Evening Standard has a story on her saying she will have Police protection for the rest of her life - under EU law, she's entitled to this if her life is in danger..

    #28
  30. AndyMac
    Offline

    AndyMac Moderator Staff Member Moderator

    Joined:
    Jun 10, 2003
    Messages:
    9,833
    Likes Received:
    30
    [Dec 20, 2003]
    You can't argue with that clear thinking, unbiased logic.
    I can see your point if she came forward as soon as she realised and didn't try and cover up the atrocity that her boyfriend had planned and carried out. If she was then still ostracised by the public purely because of her connection with Huntley, then she would deserve some sympathy. However, she didn't. She was party to the cover up, ouright lied to the police & misled everyone in an attempt to put thm off the scent, to get Huntley off.
    If she had had a bit more intelligence she might have suceeded, how well placed would your sympathies be then?
    I can't believe there are people out there who would waste their time feeling sorry for her.
    As for my "perverted version of events", I don't want her to spend her life in prison, I just fail to see how an intelligent person could feel misguided compassion for someone who tried to help a sick child murderer go free. How do you think the families of Holly & Jessica would feel reading this drivel?

    No matter how much you love someone there is an indefensible line and she clearly stepped way over it, in fact so far over it she can't even see it anymore. These are innocent kids, not some wife beater he killed in a pub car park.
    There is no defence and if he was worried about being fitted up as you say, then why didn't she ask herself why? Why would he be the one the police would try & fit up.
    Get real, wake up & smell whatever it is you smell in cloud cuckooland.
    #29
  31. gdwood
    Offline

    gdwood New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 12, 2003
    Messages:
    28
    Likes Received:
    0
    [Dec 20, 2003]
    [ QUOTE ]

    ....- but as your comments evidence, that's what you need in a society where biggots, hypocrites, bullies and vigilantes seem to think they are free to come out of their white trashed estates and exact whatever brutal vengeance ignorance dictates.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Golf Bygone,

    What right have you to infer that I am any of these things? I might not agree with your opinion, but I am able to respect it without personalising the argument by making uninformed and unsubstantiated assumptions about someone I've never met.

    Is it too much to ask that you do the same?
    #30
  32. MushroomMan
    Offline

    MushroomMan Sucemabite

    Joined:
    Mar 12, 2003
    Messages:
    343
    Likes Received:
    0
    [Dec 20, 2003]
    [ QUOTE ]
    gdwood said:
    [ QUOTE ]

    ....- but as your comments evidence, that's what you need in a society where biggots, hypocrites, bullies and vigilantes seem to think they are free to come out of their white trashed estates and exact whatever brutal vengeance ignorance dictates.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Golf Bygone,

    What right have you to infer that I am any of these things? I might not agree with your opinion, but I am able to respect it without personalising the argument by making uninformed and unsubstantiated assumptions about someone I've never met.

    Is it too much to ask that you do the same?


    [/ QUOTE ]

    I didn't mean you specifically so please don't take it personally. My point is that if you didn't have tossers intent on taking the law into their own hands, you wouldn't need to pay for protection. You can't blame Maxime Carr for this.

    Andymac, if by cloud cuckooland you mean living us in a world where things aren't simply black and white, then yes I am guilty. Where love gets in the way, corners are blurred, lines obscurred and crimes committed. No-one is saying it is right what she did but fortunatley most of us seem capable of understanding it and offering some semblance of empathy. If you ever found yourself in the same predicament I hope for your sake (and for justice) that someone like you isn't on the jury.
    #31
  33. AndyMac
    Offline

    AndyMac Moderator Staff Member Moderator

    Joined:
    Jun 10, 2003
    Messages:
    9,833
    Likes Received:
    30
    [Dec 20, 2003]
    I'm sure GB will have a few more choice excerpts of O Level poetry to put us all in our place whilst we stoke up the fire to light our flaming brands before a night of righteous vengence. My place at 8.00? Hoods are optional. Sorry, can't take this guy seriously. I don't remember anyone but him suggesting mob justice...
    #32
  34. MushroomMan
    Offline

    MushroomMan Sucemabite

    Joined:
    Mar 12, 2003
    Messages:
    343
    Likes Received:
    0
    [Dec 21, 2003]
    [ QUOTE ]
    AndyMac said:
    Oh, no , no, please don't use the 80's pop quotes. I can't stand it. If you'd just like to visit "planet earth" for a moment, my original point was that I personally do not have any sympathy for Maxine. Not that she should be locked up or strung up. MY sympathies lie entirely with the families of the girls. Sadly I do not have your boundless amounts of good will to all men (and woman) to lash about. Now for the love of God step away from that back issue of Smash Hits and let me get back to my weekend of tarring and feathering. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh_roll.gif

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Facts and fantasy:

    1. The quotation was from the Mersey poet Roger McGough, nothing whatsoever to do with 80s pop lyrics.
    2. T S Eliot's 'Four Quartets' is not taught at 'O' level. In fact, you'll find if you read the news ever that 'O' level doesn't exist anymore. Now that is almosts 80s!
    3. Maxime is spelt with two Ms.

    But you believe whatever you want. Unfortunately it's everyone's taxes that have to fund the consequences of ill-informed prejudice.

    #33
  35. audi_girl2
    Offline

    audi_girl2 New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 20, 2003
    Messages:
    4
    Likes Received:
    0
    [Dec 21, 2003]
    I think the problem with allegations and non-convictions are - what if you were innocent?

    Say my next door neighbour accuses me of crashing into their car, but it wasn't me at all, and i am proven not-guilty. Should I have a job application refused based on that?

    Although I fully agree that many people are not proven guilty, due to lack of evidence or other reason, when they are in fact guilty.
    #34
  36. gdwood
    Offline

    gdwood New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 12, 2003
    Messages:
    28
    Likes Received:
    0
    [Dec 21, 2003]
    [ QUOTE ]
    audi_girl2 said:
    I think the problem with allegations and non-convictions are - what if you were innocent?

    Say my next door neighbour accuses me of crashing into their car, but it wasn't me at all, and i am proven not-guilty. Should I have a job application refused based on that?

    Although I fully agree that many people are not proven guilty, due to lack of evidence or other reason, when they are in fact guilty.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Only problem with this approach is that there is a big difference between the consequences of employing someone alleged to have crashed a car, and someone alleged (often on numerous occasions) to have committed sexual/violent offences.

    It's all about proportionality. It is totally illogical, and surely irresponsible, to artificially close your eyes to information that suggests an obvious and serious potential risk to vulnerable people, just because it's not been proven in a court to the high criminal standard of proof.
    #35
  37. AndyMac
    Offline

    AndyMac Moderator Staff Member Moderator

    Joined:
    Jun 10, 2003
    Messages:
    9,833
    Likes Received:
    30
    [Dec 21, 2003]
    Normally, an allegation of a crime, or a not guilty verdict on a crime is unlikely to effect the job you do to such dramatic effect. It may make you unsuitable for a job, but unlikely to put lives at risk. We need to have a special law when we are dealing with a "duty of care" type job, such as children, the elderley, handicapped etc. And in this I include anyone associated with an establishment who have a duty of care i.e. caretakers, dinner ladies, lollypop men etc. If you want to work in these industries you have to have a squeaky clean record, including not guilties.

    We cannot treat these jobs the same as somebody working in a bank, who may have got off a theft allegation.
    The other concern is that many cases in the past have produced not guilty verdicts purely on a technicality, where the police may have filled in the wrong form on a vital piece of evidence, or not had a valid search warrant when uncovering critical evidence. These oversights can lead to evidence being inadmissable. But there needs to be a radical change in the way the police work before these loopholes can be plugged. There should be "police admin" teams who can take the donkey work and form filling away from experienced officers and free up this vital resource.
    It seems crazy that officers spend over half their time with mundane paperwork like transcribing their own interview tapes which takes hours as they are not trained typists. It is not surprising that mistakes are made when officers are under such time pressure.
    I don't see a civil rights problem with a complete history (including not guilty verdicts) of an individual needing to be documented when applying for certain types of jobs. It only becomes a civil rights issue if it is mandatory across the board.
    This is already in place for jobs in government, GCHQ, military etc, e.g. you have to take a drugs test to work at the Esso oil refinery.

    There will always be people who are completely innocent but have had a malicious allegation against them which then excludes them from their desired job. Tough! If someone spikes my drink and I get done for drunk driving I still lose my licence, there's no perfect solution. Unfortunately we seem to have lost sight of the purpose of criminal law, and it is used more now to protect the criminal, rather than the victim. This needs to change. I think the bigger picture justifies the odd unfairness. It'll never happen though, they'll cock it up like they always do.
    #36

Share This Page