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Should I get adjustable rear tie bars when lowering?

Discussion in 'A3/S3 Forum (8L Chassis)' started by g10chy, Jan 18, 2011.

  1. g10chy
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    g10chy Member

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    [Jan 18, 2011]
    Hey guys,

    It's that time of the year (pre-show) and im getting the modding bug :eyebrows:

    Plan is AP Coilovers, FK Spacers and BBS CH Reps...Question is should I get adjustable rear tie bars as well and possibly ARB's??

    Opinions appreciated!!

    Thanks,
    Chris
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  3. <tuffty/>
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    <tuffty/> Badger 5 Edition Staff Member Moderator

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    [Jan 18, 2011]
    Tie bars for sure especially as you are getting coil overs and no doubt will lower the car quite a bit... anything much beyond 20mm lower needs them IMO....

    ARB's don't give as much of a handling as shocks and springs so if you are on a budget then leave them until last... there is always the cheaper R32 ARB's option of course...

    <tuffty/>
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  4. g10chy
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    g10chy Member

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    [Jan 18, 2011]
    Cheers tuffty...I have just ordered some Awesome Tie Bars along with everything else!!!
    #3
  5. finesse
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    finesse Active Member VCDS Map User

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    [Jan 19, 2011]
    tuffty, IV seen a set which reduce by -25 mm Front / -20 mm Rear.

    if I got them with out tie bars what would happen?
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  6. <tuffty/>
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    <tuffty/> Badger 5 Edition Staff Member Moderator

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    [Jan 19, 2011]
    Without tie bars you could get excessive tyre wear on the inside edge, puts extra strain on the existing tie bars which have snapped before, extra strain on the wheel bearings and suspension arm bushes but more importantly affects the handling of the car and its ability to put the power down properly...

    Lowering an 8L quattro (A3 or S3) will induce excessive negative camber on the rear... I set mine up similar to the settings Glen (Ess_Three) set his up and to be fair its spot on...

    There are a couple of threads in the stickies section (including Ess_Three's performance tests) banging on about suspension setups as this has been done more times than I can remember :)

    <tuffty/>
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  7. jcs356
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    jcs356 Brum brum

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    [Jan 19, 2011]
    There is something in Audi Driver this month about Awesome GTI now selling 'camber correction bushes' from Superpro. They have eccentric centre tubes which allow some adjustment of the camber whilst retaining the original tie bars. Not sure if they are any good or not...

    I've also broken a KW adjustable tie bar - the solid threaded section just snapped - so it's not just the OE ones that go bang.

    Finally another vote for Glen's setup - I now have this on my car (together with Forge adjustable bars) and I'm a happy bunny.
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  8. finesse
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    finesse Active Member VCDS Map User

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    [Jan 19, 2011]
    £250+ for forge tie

    no thanks, rather put the money towards a new car
    #7
  9. s3dave
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    s3dave TFSI Hybrid

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    [Jan 19, 2011]
    Was the KW snapped bar fitted to the top or bottom arm?
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  10. Alex C
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    Alex C Well-Known Member

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    [Jan 19, 2011]
    the KW tie arms dont look as beefy as yours Dave
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  11. s3dave
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    s3dave TFSI Hybrid

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    [Jan 19, 2011]
    yeah, cheers, the awesome ones look like toys compared with mine too, i use M20 stainless thread.
    #10
  12. <tuffty/>
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    <tuffty/> Badger 5 Edition Staff Member Moderator

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    [Jan 19, 2011]
    I have KW bars and have been on my car for 2 years now... they replaced the lower arm on mine...

    <tuffty/>
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  13. aragorn
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    aragorn "Stick a V8 in it!" Staff Member Moderator VCDS Map User

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    [Jan 19, 2011]
    Isnt stainless comparatively weak when compared with "proper" steel?

    I know when i was rebuilding my landrover i was told specifically not to use stainless bolts on any of the suspension components.
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  14. s3dave
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    s3dave TFSI Hybrid

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    [Jan 19, 2011]
    AISI Carbon Steel - AMS 5046 - Ultimate Tension = 55000 psi
    AISI 301 Stainless Steel - AMS 5901 - Ultimate Tension = 73000 psi
    Ti-5Al Titanium - AMS 4901 - Ultimate Tension = 120000 psi
    #13
  15. jcs356
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    jcs356 Brum brum

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    [Jan 19, 2011]
    It was the bottom arm. Snapped straight through the threaded bar section which is 12mm thick. Probably pot holes or speed bumps weakened it, but it actually snapped when I was doing 70 on the A19 in North Yorks. The car veered to the left & first of all I thought I'd got a puncture.

    It was the start of a long and expensive set of repairs that ended up costing me well over £1k to fix :( Oh well, at least I finally upgraded to the performance Haldex controller.
    Last edited: Jan 19, 2011
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  16. s3dave
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    s3dave TFSI Hybrid

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    [Jan 19, 2011]
    Bloody hell you were lucky if it snapped at 70mph,
    There has been some issues with people fitting them on the bottom arm increased wear on driveshafts etc, on other forums,
    I have fit mine on the top arms, a little more work fitting them, but would rather have piece of mind.
    KW thread only 12mm..:unsure:
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  17. g10chy
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    g10chy Member

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    [Jan 19, 2011]
    Dave - So you would recommend having them fitted to the top rather than the bottom?
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  18. s3dave
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    s3dave TFSI Hybrid

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    [Jan 19, 2011]
    Yes.....
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  19. aragorn
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    aragorn "Stick a V8 in it!" Staff Member Moderator VCDS Map User

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    [Jan 19, 2011]
    That data is effectively useless though?

    The tie rods arent solely in tension, and you need to know the fatigue strength, as opposed to the ultimate tensile strength. Different materials react differently under bending and twisting.

    Plus there is more than one grade of stainless steel and more than one grade of carbon steel.

    IMO theres a reason you dont see stainless ANYWHERE on car suspension systems.
    #18
  20. s3dave
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    s3dave TFSI Hybrid

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    [Jan 19, 2011]
    Stainless does not torque up very well
    You wont see much stainless on any mass produced car as it is to expensive :ermm:
    #19
  21. aragorn
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    aragorn "Stick a V8 in it!" Staff Member Moderator VCDS Map User

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    [Jan 19, 2011]
    your figures above suggest otherwise, which is why i suspect they're wrong.

    Your average bolt used on car suspension will be grade 10.9, which has a tensile strength of 1000N/mm^2 or 145000psi, many times higher than the figure you quoted for carbon steel and nearly double that of stainless.

    Stainless is also far less ductile, and prone to brittle failure.
    Last edited: Jan 19, 2011
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  22. Sandip
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    Sandip Well-Known Member

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    [Jan 19, 2011]
    Seen this thread a little late but personally i think you definitely need adjustable tie bars when getting coilovers. I've lowered mine over 2yrs ago on springs/dampers around 30mm and aslong as the tyre pressure is right i haven't had any uneven wear on both my 18" and 19" wheels

    I will be getting adjustable tie bars sorted in the near future though :)
    #21
  23. finesse
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    finesse Active Member VCDS Map User

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    [Jan 19, 2011]
    interesting
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  24. jcs356
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    jcs356 Brum brum

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    [Jan 19, 2011]
    Yep, the car was surprisingly well behaved - just a tug to the left (was the nearside one that went) but no impending doom/immediate crash/fireball.

    Top tip, as I discovered to my cost. Because of the suspension setup, everything sort of stays where it should be, assuming the car is going forwards. As soon as you try to go backwards (and that includes off a tow truck), the rear wheel squashes up into the wheel arch and the driveshaft pops out of the diff and you have to stand and watch as all your diff oil p***es out.

    As I say, the start of a long and expensive set bills. Was about £400 to get the tie bars replaced, then have to have 4 wheel alignment to make sure tie bars are set correctly. The nearside tie bar also holds one of the sensors on it (think it might be something to do with headlight levelling?) so that got trashed - £100. Then after all that got sorted out suddenly my Haldex unit went pop so that was another £675 for a performance controller. Add in lashings of labour and diagnostic time and....
    #23
  25. Westy
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    Westy Double Dark Side! Diesel & 8P

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    [Feb 7, 2011]
    So a drop of 20mm front and 15mm rear for a damper/spring kit shouldn't require tie bars?

    The time has come for me to replace my rusty springs and tired shocks and I dont want coilovers so just looking at a suspension kit.
    #24
  26. JS1500
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    JS1500 Howdy

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    [Feb 7, 2011]
    As I type a mechanic is fitting my S3 with Bilstein B8s and H&R springs which should drop it an extra 15-20mm over the 'gmbh' kit it replaces.
    I'm hoping to get away with it without adjustable tie-bars.
    #25
  27. Westy
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    Westy Double Dark Side! Diesel & 8P

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    [Feb 7, 2011]
    Oh lovely stuff. Just out of interest how much did the springs and shocks cost? I've been looking at cheaper options: weitec or HR
    #26
  28. JS1500
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    JS1500 Howdy

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    [Feb 7, 2011]
    Would be approx £700 new but I got these with 200 miles on them from a fellow ASN forum member who's putting his car back to standard, for £400 plus my old suspension (80k miles).

    It's money I don't really have, but I couldn't pass up the opportunity! I've been wanting this setup for the last 18 months!
    #27
  29. finesse
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    finesse Active Member VCDS Map User

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    [Feb 7, 2011]
    westle, koni fsd here, worth looking into

    tried & tested forum favorite - b8 + eibach , h&r or apex
    #28
  30. Westy
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    Westy Double Dark Side! Diesel & 8P

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    [Feb 7, 2011]
    I saw a set of FSDs but they were around £550 just for the dampers, then springs were another £150! I'd rather keep the price down to around £500 all in if I can. The car only every gets massively abused when at the Ring once a year so I dont need need anything special.
    #29
  31. finesse
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    finesse Active Member VCDS Map User

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    [Feb 7, 2011]
    apex springs 100quid new on fleabay

    I will be fitting eibach springs to my koni :)
    #30

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