Santa pod meets stage 2+ ...results...

[lucky_bob]

...so, don't wanna start with negatives, will tell wot happened last year...
...i was running AmD stage 2, car had forge twintake, dv+, stock DP but cat's where cut out by previous owner, on dyno it was making very solid 352 hp n 325 lb.ft, car felt awesome...
...took it to pod, was very pleased with 12.9 n speed of 106.4 + it was very consistent, mines DSG so LC does all the job...

that was last year...

...i have spent a small fortune on it this year, now its got... milltek DP, propa decat, wagner intercooler, RS4 valve, loba hpfp, switched to AmD intake cos was told twintake is no good, + ARB's, WALK, eibach springs, lower engine mount insert, whent with AmD stage 2+ map, cos was happy last time... on dyno it made only 357 hp n 328lb. ft was told i need DSG map, so got that done, car made 373 hp n 349 lb.ft, torque seemed low, but hey ho...i knew that i will take it to pod n then will c wot's wot...

...just came back from Santa Pod...wota utter rubbish...best time wos a bit better 12.64, BUT car was all over the place with times...12.87 12.71 12.64 and then the next 3 runs 12.90 12.98 12.82 , and it gets better best speed was 107.3, really???? 1 mph increase....well thats just shocking...just gave up n came home depressed... n before someone blames my driving, it's LC so it should be consistent as it was last year...

...wot is that wagner intercooler doin'??? and where do i start with AmD stage 2+ map....was happy last year with stage 2, but stage 2+ is one utter *****!!!!

...any comments welcome

 

[Flexiblemouse]

Looking at the numbers you posted, it seems that you were only making 21hp more than last time the car was at the strip, I don't think the 1mph was a bad gain. I think as you spent a lot of money you were expecting better results, but you can see from the times the car is launching better than it was before. If you want to see better times then you need better rubber, if you want better trap speeds you need more power.

 

[S3Alex]

Looking at the numbers you posted, it seems that you were only making 21hp more than last time the car was at the strip, I don't think the 1mph was a bad gain. I think as you spent a lot of money you were expecting better results, but you can see from the times the car is launching better than it was before. If you want to see better times then you need better rubber, if you want better trap speeds you need more power.

I think you've hit the nail on the head.

21bhp at peak rpm is around 5%,but it's way past the torque peak of the K04 and the torque peak has also risen by around 6%.

The intercooler might make a bit of an impression after a number of hard runs on a hot day,by reducing the impact of heat soak,but on a cold day,you'd expect simply to get full power on each run.

As you've said,better rubber would help,and something like a set of properly hot R888s would be likely to give better results.

The Twintake is an old design,that was good for the time,and the point of going for one of the newer breed is for gains at peak rpm,but we're talking about a few bhp here.
Most of us won't even notice less than 5% gains,and unless you're making big gains in bhp and torque with each stage,it isn't going to set the drag strip on fire.

Also....the maximum variation in times between the best and worst runs was only 0.26s.....that's not bad.

What I noticed most of all at Stg2+ compared to Stg2,was the better midrange torque and driveability,as opposed to maximum rpm power.

 

[smurfworth]

Torque seems a bit low, take it to r tech, normally around 380ft lbs on stage 2+ hardware

 

[lucky_bob]

fair points, but still if i could rewind the time i would NEVER have spent all that money on the car to gain, in my opinion, not a jack **** ...sorry but im all bitter n twisted...not happy...will try dif map, thats gonna be the last few hundred quid i will spend on it...
...all this hype about stage 2+...sorry but save ur money n stay at stage 1 or 2 wot dont cost a lot...

 

[lucky_bob]

Torque seems a bit low, take it to r tech, normally around 380ft lbs on stage 2+ hardware

im looking into dif map, then will have another go...dyno figures don't interest me, im after times on strip cos they dont lie...

 

[smurfworth]

fair points, but still if i could rewind the time i would NEVER have spent all that money on the car to gain, in my opinion, not a jack **** ...sorry but im all bitter n twisted...not happy...will try dif map, thats gonna be the last few hundred quid i will spend on it...
...all this hype about stage 2+...sorry but save ur money n stay at stage 1 or 2 wot dont cost a lot...

Tbh tho, you don't need all that hardware, for most people like myself going from stage 2 to 2+ only involves uprated fuel pump internals at £300 so isn't much for the extra step. Try a few different maps most places offer trial software but I think you'll be best off taking it to R tech as they'll set it up for the mods you have.

 

[lucky_bob]

that 1mph increase was on 1 out of 6 runs...to be happy about 1mph increase is just sad...sorry...

 

[S3Alex]

fair points, but still if i could rewind the time i would NEVER have spent all that money on the car to gain, in my opinion, not a jack **** ...sorry but im all bitter n twisted...not happy...will try dif map, thats gonna be the last few hundred quid i will spend on it...
...all this hype about stage 2+...sorry but save ur money n stay at stage 1 or 2 wot dont cost a lot...

Hi Bob....I see what you're getting at,and I do understand how it feels to spend a LOT of money and either not get the results you wanted,or set the tarmac alight in the process.

A lot of what you've done,like the suspension work,and the decat,is frankly not going to make a huge difference to straight line performance,but the biggest point of the uprated HPFP is to fill in midrange torque which is lost otherwise,when the stock pump is unable to flow enough at peak torque.

A custom map from someone like Rick@Unicorn may help,but it still won't produce massive bhp gains.

Even those who claim 400bhp from a K04 are only getting relatively small percentage gains....the step from a wrung out small turbo,to a big turbo kit,or some of the hybrids,is massive by comparison.

 

[Flexiblemouse]

Gains at the drag strip are either made by improving traction (which you have done ) or by improving the power to weight ratio of the car. For all the money you spent you only added 21hp, and it shows in the results. If you want a better trap speed, either get a more aggressive remap or ditch the K04 and get something bigger. Or if that isn't an option, get some of the weight out of the car, get some lighter wheels, remove anything you don't need etc.

 

[lucky_bob]

i know that my stock turbo wont give me any more hp, but torque is wot im lacking... rick is 3h drive from me, its not ideal if something goes wrong...thinking about apr map...dunno...
...suspension wise, eibach lowering kit is defo worth it, ARB's n WALK, for a daily driver waste of money...
...exhaust wise, i love my supersprint quad set up, but milltek DP, decat, lower engine mount insert, waste of money...
...engine wise, Rs4 valve, intercooler, AmD intake( at least twintake looks sweet), loba hpfp( in my current map set up) waste of money...

...i was much happier at stage 2 and would have few grand in my pocket...

 

[Flexiblemouse]

I just did some back if the envelope calculations for you, to see a definite improvement (3mph) you are going to be running 405hp minimum.

 

[lucky_bob]

thx, to everyone, its just depressing, i didn't expect miracles, even 12.6 but consistent would be ok, but doin' the same top speed is just ridiculous ...

 

[S3Alex]

i know that my stock turbo wont give me any more hp, but torque is wot im lacking... rick is 3h drive from me, its not ideal if something goes wrong...thinking about apr map...dunno...
...suspension wise, eibach lowering kit is defo worth it, ARB's n WALK, for a daily driver waste of money...
...exhaust wise, i love my supersprint quad set up, but milltek DP, decat, lower engine mount insert, waste of money...
...engine wise, Rs4 valve, intercooler, AmD intake( at least twintake looks sweet), loba hpfp( in my current map set up) waste of money...

...i was much happier at stage 2 and would have few grand in my pocket...

The problem is that the K04 isn't capable of sustaining peak torque up to the red line,or anywhere near to be honest.

If you look at the torque curves from all of our cars when running a K04,you'll find the same thing.....past around 5000-550rpm it's all over.

Here's one from mine on a K04.....



Peak torque is at around 4500rpm,and after that,things begin to roll off,and even the peak power isn't at huge rpms.

 

[Flexiblemouse]

Like I said, times are dictated by traction off the line and terminal speeds by power to weight ratio. You only slightly improved the power, and only slightly improved the trap speed. Check out some quarter mile calculators so you can get a feel for where you want to go.

 

[lucky_bob]

still think that for a daily driver car, stage 1 maybe 2 is more than enough...im not even into dragracing, just tried it out cos had the feeling that i went too far and not far enough to be something worth while on the strip... hope this helps someone, cos once u spend the money...its gone...

 

[voorhees]

I ran my DSG Golf at Inters with stage 1 map but stage 2+ hardware then the next year with the stage 2+ software it gained .1 of a second ?
Still won best in its class though,on track though it comes into its own.

 

[S3Alex]

still think that for a daily driver car, stage 1 maybe 2 is more than enough...im not even into dragracing, just tried it out cos had the feeling that i went too far and not far enough to be something worth while on the strip... hope this helps someone, cos once u spend the money...its gone...

I often get the feeling that I've gone too far.....

I really got that feeling when I was told they were having difficulty getting the 3582 to fit.....I just had visions of a very costly mistake.

 

[Rick @ Unicorn Motor Dev.]

1/4 mile is purely about power, which is pretty much down to the hardware on the car. Stage 2 plus cars feel far quicker on the road than Stage 2, but on the drag strip there is very little in it due to not much difference in peak power.

Rick

 

[lucky_bob]

...it does feel faster on the road, i just need to forget about 1/4 mile n enjoy driving it...

 

[lucky_bob]

I ran my DSG Golf at Inters with stage 1 map but stage 2+ hardware then the next year with the stage 2+ software it gained .1 of a second ?
Still won best in its class though,on track though it comes into its own.

hmmm, .1 of a second, i guess i need to be happy with my .3 improvement, its just that it was all over the place with times... 12.6 is fine with me if its consistent...

 

[S3Alex]

...it does feel faster on the road, i just need to forget about 1/4 mile n enjoy driving it...

That's the thing.....just enjoy how it goes on the road,and have fun.

 

[Compkiler]

I tried 3 runs last year at Santa Pod, loved it and I was running stage 1 only! Only hardware I had was a Revo CAI!
I didn't know what was good or bad but I managed a 13.6. Mines a manual though and my clutch was slipping bad so wanted to just try a couple to see if I liked it, which I did

My mid range was Definately slacking tho... I could feel the power die off mid range and I'd have to change gear!

Now I'm running stage 2+ and have an uprated clutch so I'll be heading to gti international again this year and santapod and will give it another go but with more aggression this time ;-)
Gona try launching at 4-5k revs and plant it and see what happens!

I know what Ya saying regarding spending all that cash as I feel the same sometimes but let's face it, let a porshe or another sports car come up against you and you will defjnately be able to hold your own!

Just be happy you have an extremly fast car that hardly any cars will be able to keep up with!
And as said above, take her on a track and desimate the competition!

 

[S3_Jacko]

A few lads up here in Scotland are running stage 2+ apr, which makes about 380hp 410ft/lbs on the dyno with roughly the same hardware... The dyno talk seems to be doing it on the 1/4 mile too as they are all running around 12.1's and a few are pushing for 11's this year with some weight reduction..

 

[Bazzle]

You need to look at the graphs from the dyno for both sets of tune. A lot can be learnt from the areas under the lines.
Driveabilty mostly.

 

[superkarl]

You can't expect every stage of tuning or every mod to gain you the same again and again. Wake up.
It's a stock turbo, ringing it's neck, you're into the realm now of searching for 1/10ths of seconds, if you want more, much more, you need to look much further than expensive bolt ons for an already maxed turbo

 

[lucky_bob]

A few lads up here in Scotland are running stage 2+ apr, which makes about 380hp 410ft/lbs on the dyno with roughly the same hardware... The dyno talk seems to be doing it on the 1/4 mile too as they are all running around 12.1's and a few are pushing for 11's this year with some weight reduction..

thats my problem lack of torque, APR map is defo the one i'll try, will report back how it goes, i'm not finished with Santa Pod just yet...

 

[lucky_bob]

You can't expect every stage of tuning or every mod to gain you the same again and again. Wake up.
It's a stock turbo, ringing it's neck, you're into the realm now of searching for 1/10ths of seconds, if you want more, much more, you need to look much further than expensive bolt ons for an already maxed turbo

i know the turbo is maxed out, but its not about the turbo its about the map, im not after some miracle times, but i need to run consistent 12.5ish, some r running low 12 thats pushing it, 12.5ish with dsg n lc should be easy...

 

[lucky_bob]

You need to look at the graphs from the dyno for both sets of tune. A lot can be learnt from the areas under the lines.
Driveabilty mostly.

here's last years stage 2 dyno, this years only stage 2+ before dsg map, n after with dsg map
...last years torque of 325lb starts at around 2800rpm till 5000rpm, car felt really good
...this years stage 2+ dyno torque 328 lb starts around 3500rpm till 5000rpm,
...after dsg map torque peaks at 349lb at around 2800 rpm and drops really fast at around 3200 to old 330ish till 4200rpm n then drops of the cliff...

...car gear changes felt much more savage on last years map, this year with all the mods and stage 2+ map its really smooth , shall i say a bit boring...dunno if dyno graphs help...

...thx again 4 everyone's input...

 

[lucky_bob]

...launch control is set to around 3800ish rpm...

 

[S3Alex]

here's last years stage 2 dyno, this years only stage 2+ before dsg map, n after with dsg map
...last years torque of 325lb starts at around 2800rpm till 5000rpm, car felt really good
...this years stage 2+ dyno torque 328 lb starts around 3500rpm till 5000rpm,
...after dsg map torque peaks at 349lb at around 2800 rpm and drops really fast at around 3200 to old 330ish till 4200rpm n then drops of the cliff...

...car gear changes felt much more savage on last years map, this year with all the mods and stage 2+ map its really smooth , shall i say a bit boring...dunno if dyno graphs help...

...thx again 4 everyone's input...

Your graphs are almost identical to mine in many ways.

They all show the same thing in terms of torque,which is a quick rise to peak torque,followed by a fairly obvious drop off after that point,as the turbo is running out of puff.

For sure,APR do get more torque,but that's by pushing the timing,and whichever way you look at it,even with that sort of mapping,the difference between your best result and the results quoted above by S3_Jacko,is 0.5s.

My own opinion is that it's easy to get lost in the search for a few tenths here,and to forget the fact that without some big changes,either in power or weight,that it isn't going to go much faster.

Enjoy it on the road.

Mine has never done the 1/4 mile,and probably never will as I don't want the expense of a broken gearbox now.

 

[DeckedS3]

Between stage 2 and 2+ on the 1/4 mile bigger I think weight, fuel quality (and the amount of it in the tank), tyres, temperatures and wind speed will create bigger differences in your times than ECU map.

 

[Flexiblemouse]

It's not peak torque you need to worry about, you are only going to hit it once anyway, in 1st gear. Every gear after that you are going to be near the horsepower peak, torque will have fallen off by then. In a drag race you need horsepower (more torque at high rpm) plain and simple. Ditch the K04, get yourself a bigger turbo and a remap to suit it, then go back and see the difference.

I'd recommend researching the relationship between power and torque, and drag racing fundamentals. Also a drag racing calculator will give you a great idea of how much power you will need, our how much weight you would need to shed to achieve your goals.

 

[lucky_bob]

i have always told myself that reliability is the most important part of the car so i will leave it as is...
usually after a year or so i move on with cars, i think i will enjoy my S3 as is till summer comes n then will get myself something else, still got the itch for rwd cars...
...bigger turbo is a big no no, got caught in the moment with stage 2+...live n learn...
Thx everyone

 

[Flexiblemouse]

In that case, I recommend something big, luxurious and V8 powered

 

[kelso]

I just came across this. What this is from, is a golf r in Australia with stock k04-64 turbo running revlimit stage 2+ antilag map.

 

[Flexiblemouse]

To be running 118mph, I'd bet that thing has at least 450hp, probably nearer 500. Or if it has less power then it has had significant weight reduction. Like I said the terminal speeds are all down to power to weight ratio. Also from his 60ft time it looks like he is on slicks, don't compare your daily driver to what appears to be a stripped out race car, you will only get disappointed.

 

[lucky_bob]

Torque seems a bit low, take it to r tech, normally around 380ft lbs on stage 2+ hardware

...couldn't let it go, it plays on my mind all the time all that money down the drain, so booked in on 10th for custom map n then 18th back to pod...one last try...would of liked to use rick@unicorn but the distance is too far, so r-tech it is...

 

[S3Alex]

...couldn't let it go, it plays on my mind all the time all that money down the drain, so booked in on 10th for custom map n then 18th back to pod...one last try...would of liked to use rick@unicorn but the distance is too far, so r-tech it is...

Bob you're clearly as bad as I am in wanting more.

You know where this sort of thing leads.....

 

[kelso]

To be running 118mph, I'd bet that thing has at least 450hp, probably nearer 500. Or if it has less power then it has had significant weight reduction. Like I said the terminal speeds are all down to power to weight ratio. Also from his 60ft time it looks like he is on slicks, don't compare your daily driver to what appears to be a stripped out race car, you will only get disappointed.

This time is not from a stripped out race car. It's a daily driver. I think that this time has to do with the antilag launch control revlimit is using and the fact that they do push the turbo to it's limits. I also don't know what tyres they're using.