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Salt makes the roads greasy

Discussion in 'Other Brands & Models' started by Drystone, Feb 24, 2003.

  1. Drystone
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    Drystone Member

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    [Feb 24, 2003]
    Has anyone noticed that with the roads being gritted at the moment this seems to make them very slippery. Road salt is hygroscopic meaning that it holds water, stopping it from evaporating as quickly as it normally does. This is why the roads stay wet for longer when they are salted. It seems that this moisture in addition to the salt creates an oily substance.

    I came piling into a sweeping bend on Friday night, it was slightly damp but I've taken it before at the same speed when it's been properly wet, the front end started to go then as I lifted off the backend came swinging round. I caught it by luck more than skill I think and it actually felt quite controlled so I was buzzing afterwards /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif, could so easily have gone the other way though /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif.

    Any of you lot had any 'moments' due to this slippy stuff?

    Christian
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  3. Simon
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    Simon Member

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    [Feb 24, 2003]
    I was out in the skyline yesterday - and not even giving it much beans was all over the place, understeer into oversteer at every oppotunity - I was thinking that the tyres were on the way out - but there is loads of tread!

    Simon
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  4. Drystone
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    Drystone Member

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    [Feb 24, 2003]
    Simon,

    I was thinking tyres but mine are okay as well. Damp roundabouts are like ice rinks at the moment, wish I had a RWD car /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif.

    Christian
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  5. AL_B
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    AL_B Active Member

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    [Feb 24, 2003]
    Christian,

    Sounds like you were lucky/skilled there mate! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/jawdrop.gif

    No incidents as such, but one night last week I noticed the car was slipping about a bit, yet the road wasn't wet. Just that greasy/damp-ish film - just like this evening actually.

    Anyway, I stopped at a give way on a quite side road near to where I live. ESP was off, and I had about half-lock on the right. Gave the car about 3-4000rpm and dumped the clutch, launched forward a bit, and the backend swung out!! Couldn't believe it. Easily caught though.

    This morning at a roundabout, had all 4 wheels spinning (until they gripped) as I launched into an opening!!

    Think I need to take it easy on my clutch. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

    AL
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  6. amoffat
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    amoffat Member

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    [Feb 24, 2003]
    I turned off a main road on a 90 degree turning that I know really well, had the ESP off, and thought it would drift a little, go I was wrong, it reeeeaaallllyyyy drifted /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ooo.gif Bit of a moment really, but laughed about it later /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

    Noticed a huge difference in these slippery conditions with ESP on or off.

    Turned off, it is really good for accelerating hard, but switched off is a bit lethal IMO, used it plenty b4 switched off, but there seems to be way more understeer in these conditions.

    Turned on, its so piggin unpredictable, and I never feel that I know what the car is doing /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif

    Tested on and off on a well known roundabout. Gradually accelerated while I was going round, with ESP OFF and just ger predictable understeer and I have to back off quite early. Next I tried it turned on, and this was the scary bit. First it understeers and then the back of the car feels light, and it was a constant yo-yo of movement in the car as (it felt like) the car was moving the traction about bewteen the fronts and backs.

    To summarise, ESP feels a bit scary and unperdictable on the limit. I know it is helping on most corners that I enter (by mistake) too fast etc by braking the relevant wheel etc, but I don't have a clue what is happening and can't feel it. ESP off mmmmmmm....

    ranted a bit there... sorry /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
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  7. AL_B
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    AL_B Active Member

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    [Feb 24, 2003]
    Bit worried with what you said their Moff, Toyo's not helping much in these conditions then? Those are/were going to be my tyre choice come renewal time.

    That yo-yo-ing, presumably the car was sitting down at the back, and then coming back up again - I would guess it was probably because of ESP doing its braking bit.

    I never sense/feel the torque being sent to the back, unless in exagerated situations like above, or in snow. Normal, fast driving seems smooth. In fact most of the time I wonder if its actually running as 4wd or not! Especially when the car is understeering suddenly as you describe.

    I've heard it said that on some 4wd cars, I think it was said about the R32 - not sure, that you can accelerate through the understeer. Is that true? I've never had the nerve myself.

    AL

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  8. amoffat
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    amoffat Member

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    [Feb 24, 2003]
    Al, definitely not the Toyo's, they are still good, especially in the wet or dry.

    In this salty damp ****, I don't think much would help. I was pushing the car to the limit as well.
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  9. amoffat
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    amoffat Member

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    [Feb 24, 2003]
    [ QUOTE ]
    that you can accelerate through the understeer. Is that true? I've never had the nerve myself.


    [/ QUOTE ]
    I see what they are getting at there, but I would not try it, more likely to power into the ditch /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif
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  10. AL_B
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    AL_B Active Member

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    [Feb 24, 2003]
    [ QUOTE ]
    S3 Moff said:
    I see what they are getting at there, but I would not try it, more likely to power into the ditch /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Yeah, thats why I've not tried it! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

    AL
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  11. worfke
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    worfke Member

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    [Feb 25, 2003]
    Has it occured to you that the engineers who designed esp actually expect you to ease off the gas once you see the ESP light coming on? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

    Other than that, ESP is not always working when you see the light coming on, often it is just ASR, especially on roundabouts: The inner wheels have a smaller radius than the outer wheels thus have the tendency to spin. ASR will compensate for this, but it working will slightly destabilize your car's front thus creating some understeer.
    If this understeer persists, ESP will intervene by braking the inner rear wheel to neutralize understeer.
    However, if you are really on the limit of grip, this will create oversteer that has to be compensated for once again by braking the outer front wheel.

    When you start going even faster or if you were pressing the gas too hard during this manouver, ESP will also start limiting engine power, first by reducing the gas, later on by retarding or de-activating one to three cylinders (on a 4-cylinder car).

    However, if you persist for a while and you manage to keep going too fast for some reason for a while, your brakes will overheat and ESP will shut down to prevent permanent damage to the braking system. If you are still going too fast at this point, you will most likely end up in the decor unless you have excellent driving skills.

    This all said, this situation is very improbable as by the time this happens you will probobly have done 10 circles on your roundabout. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif
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  12. mramage
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    mramage Member

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    [Feb 25, 2003]

    I like those kind of rants Moff /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
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  13. Simon
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    Simon Member

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    [Feb 25, 2003]
    understeer - lift off, let the wheels grip again, power on - be ready to correct the lift off oversteer with opposite lock though /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

    RWD is lots of fun when you are epecting/provoking it - not so much fun when you are not...........

    and I don't thnk the mondeo driver was happy when he saw the back end of my car heading towards his door on a slow roundabout /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif

    Still there are two things that I love the most about RWD - big smokey wheelspinning launches where the car just steps out as you move off, and just hanging the tail out on a fast sweeping corner /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif
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  14. amoffat
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    amoffat Member

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    [Feb 25, 2003]
    [ QUOTE ]
    Still there are two things that I love the most about RWD - big smokey wheelspinning launches where the car just steps out as you move off, and just hanging the tail out on a fast sweeping corner

    [/ QUOTE ]
    just wait until next week when I get the S2000 for 1 whole week /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/groovy.gif I am going to kick some ass, and burn those tyres... its not my car /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/devil.gif

    #13
  15. amoffat
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    amoffat Member

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    [Feb 25, 2003]
    I have also been reading about Beemers (urghh) and DSC. If you switch off their Traction control button, pressing once, it only turns off ASR and not DSC. Apparently you have to press it a few times or hold it down to switch of DSC etc fully. Anyone clarify this, and can you do something similar with ours, or is it just an ON or OFF?
    #14
  16. Simon
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    Simon Member

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    [Feb 26, 2003]
    how new is the S2000? I have heard that the older ones are a bit quick to snap from controllable oversteer into 'oh **** I'm facing the wrong way!' the newer ones have had some suspenion changes to make the more progressive.

    Simon
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  17. amoffat
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    amoffat Member

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    [Feb 26, 2003]
    It will be brand spankers /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif Its a 52 plate, the car is a Honda UK demonstrater, so I hope it is run-in nicely for me.
    #16
  18. Mark
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    Mark New Member

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    [Feb 27, 2003]
    [ QUOTE ]
    S3 Moff said:
    It will be brand spankers /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif Its a 52 plate, the car is a Honda UK demonstrater, so I hope it is run-in nicely for me.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Moff - one thing you MUST do is to try it with the airbox cover off.
    Open up the bonnet and you'll be able to tell immediately what I'm talking about, the big black plastic box with a small 'trumpet' thing on the front - undo the 6 or so clips and chuck the cover in the boot - I guarantee you won't want to put it back on /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif (don't worry, most S2000 owners leave theirs off permanently in the winter, you only lose a couple of hp and the aural benefits are worth the cost....)

    Be safe though mate, let the tyres warm up before you cane it, and remeber there are NO driver aids on this car, you have 240bhp going to the rear wheels and 50:50 weight distribution....
    Slow in, fast out.
    Don't lift off on fast corners under ANY circumstances.
    Don't floor it out of wet junctions.
    Remember to use the gears to get the best from the engine, it's fairly quick under 6krpm, it's ballistic over 6k.
    The roof can come down in all temperatures because the heater blows air straight at the driver - it's mandatory to go topless at every opportunity /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

    Have fun! (you will) /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/froggie_red.gif
    #17
  19. AL_B
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    AL_B Active Member

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    [Feb 27, 2003]
    [ QUOTE ]
    Mark said:
    it's ballistic over 6k.


    [/ QUOTE ]

    I can vouch for that. 125 wasn't it Mark? Roof down, 6000+ rpm. Sounded like an F1 car! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/lol.gif

    Unfortunately it was freezing though - Mark had the heater to himself!

    AL
    #18

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