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Safe BHP for stock internals

Discussion in 'A3/S3 Forum (8L Chassis)' started by Stuart35205, May 19, 2013.

  1. Stuart35205
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    Stuart35205 Member

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    I've been reading most people's build threads and other questions , taking into account what work has already been done to the car could I fit 3" down pipe decat / sport cat , upgrade middle section , reuse scorpion back box. I've read up on these 0280 150 558 which can run the same fuel pressure so not stressing the fuel system as ramping the pressure up , they are EV1 which I believe are right and run the same impedance as stock which is good for ecu . They are 440cc so that's about 88bhp poss achievable each x4 is 352bhp now I don't want or need that but could it be mapped to run say 280-300 bhp with this set up on stock internals & fuel pump etc or should I look for smaller cc injectors which take me to this bhp figure.
    Cheers
    stuart
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  2. Stuart35205
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    Stuart35205 Member

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    Forgot to say I would need fmic aswell
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  3. jojo
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    jojo S3 Drift King! Staff Member Moderator

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    It would help greatly, if you could tell us what turbo? Stock K03S, not a chance.
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  4. <tuffty/>
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    <tuffty/> Badger 5 Edition Staff Member Moderator

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    You have an AUM so 19mm pins... this means crack rods and tangless bearings... I'd do rods regardless...

    As its a wideband ECU, go for Bosch 550cc EV14's as they are just a better injector...

    300hp will be totally dependant on turbo... Bill's Lupo with a hybrid++ has made over 330hp on it but... and its a big but... EGT's were massive as the K03 hotside is restrictive as hell...

    300hp from a K03 fitment hybrid requires WMI... end...

    <tuffty/>
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  5. StaceyS3
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    StaceyS3 Active Member

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    Theres some 19mm integrated forged rods on ebay at the moment ;)
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  6. Broken Byzan
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    Broken Byzan Photographic Moderator Staff Member Moderator

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    safe BHP is 180, any more is taking a risk
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  7. Stuart35205
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    Stuart35205 Member

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    180 is boring my last diesel had more lol! I mean what bhp is relatively safe seen as these are good strong engines I am happy to upgrade bits as necessary to keep bhp well within what the engine can take .

    Stacey I have the rods in my watch list!

    Ok so maybe I was bieng optermistic when I said 280! Lol

    turbo is a ko3s I believe bieng aum , egt wise there has to be a rough bhp where it crosses over to becoming a problem
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  8. 16Klappe
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    16Klappe Princess Slayer

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    You haven't got a scooooby doo have you mate? :(

    I have never known of a K03s bend a rod, only hybrids and things with launch control.

    Mine is 245 and 319lbft and I'm concious of the rods because of the torque. But a 280bhp K04 would be arguably safer than a 245bhp K03s due to the greater flow and lower torque figure creating a more linear power delivery.

    It depends what you want in the car really, 200bh/ton is achievable with a K03s, but 220bh/ton is easier and safer to achieve with a K04.

    The guys above are all suggesting rods because they know how fragile they can be. It is down to you; a complete engine costs less than a set of rods. That's why I don't have any internal upgrades.

    And I know of several 300bhp LCR's and A3's running stock rods, which have been for years.

    With reference your question about injectors, don't even bother. Just fit standard S3 ones and a K04 setup if you want 280bhp. And the hardware will be less than £500 if you shop around.
    Last edited: May 19, 2013
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  9. Stuart35205
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    Stuart35205 Member

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    You haven't got a scooooby doo have you mate?

    Nope not really lol , that's why a read some articles & ask some questions & if it haven't got it I will have another look.
    Thats why I ask what is safe & achievable with stock internals , then given the info I receive I would then have a read on it . As with most stuff on forums you take with a pinch of salt
    one person has said 180bhp which it already is then you know cars running 300 so not a lot of continuity , I'm not trying to beat any records I'd just like it to be more lively without worrying every time it's driven hard.
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  10. 16Klappe
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    16Klappe Princess Slayer

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    So what have you done to it so far then? There's no mention of a map in your little mods list in your signature, which tells me it isn't 180bhp yet?

    I did go out to beat records, and it is retarded. Just go for a nice 230bhp stage 1 car with a decent suspension setup. MUCH more enjoyable than going higher than 240bhp on the stock turbo. And much much cheaper.

    If you want more power, then go get another car. The other choice is to upgrade to a K04 and run it at 250/260bhp, otherwise you'll be wanting to run rods and if you're fitting rods you might as well get a GT28 and have 300bhp.

    You'll have to excuse the piss taking and generally not caring; it isn't your fault. But every single week we get a new hero pop up who's read a couple of build threads and wants a 250bhp A3, or a 300bhp S3 and thinks it doesn't take years of knowledge and building to get to that stage. Then after we've answered the same questions all over again we never hear from them again after a month.

    This forum has got a very high class of car, and as such we get a lot of idiots. I'm not saying you're an idiot, but every question you are asking has been answered 100 times already this year.

    Basically :beerchug:

    :)
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  11. <tuffty/>
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    <tuffty/> Badger 5 Edition Staff Member Moderator

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    Rod failure is too subjective to be able to suggest a safe figure... regardless of power etc... and its not actually power that breaks them, its torque... 19mm rods tend to spin bearings more than anything tbh...

    K03s is typically good for up to 230hp realistically with supporting mods... the 245hp figures are achievable but don't expect any longevity...

    Safe sensible tune with a fmic and a few other odds and sods will net 220/230hp on a healthy engine with a healthy turbo... most I have seen though aren't and struggle to get much more than 210/215hp as a rule...

    <tuffty/>
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  12. Stuart35205
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    Stuart35205 Member

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    That's fine I accept what you say if you've been here for ages it must do you head in! It's been to r-tec last year before I had it and is running 187 at the wheels 202 flywheel if I'm reading the map correctly .I just haven't put it in my signature yet coz I forgot! If 230 would make a fast reliable road version then I would be happy to aim for that first and see what the future brings.
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  13. superkarl
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    superkarl MAN OF STEEL

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    Mark said 180 because thats how ko3s cars leave the factory. Technically speaking that is 'safe' as its how VAG engineered the car to be run at.

    But the general rule that most people accept is 300ftlbs torque. But, there are so many contributing factors as to what is 'safe'. In reality there is no 'safe', hence marks answer of 180hp.

    torque is the main figure to keep your eye on though, aswell as delivery, small turbos like the stock ko3/s spool very fast and can hit peak torque/boost at like 3krpm. Im sure jardo (klappe) could post a dyno graph of his as his torque figure really is an incredible feet for that turbo. I dont know your knowledge of mechanics or physics but take how fast it takes to rev/accel from idle to peak torque, lets say 3k rpm, and imagine te forces involved when producing 300ftlbs at the crank, its insane, especially when you see how feable the rods are.

    On the other hand rods can be looked after with careful mapping, for example limiting boost and therfore torque, delaying the onset of peak boost i.e. Making the delivery very linear and not spikey. But then, where is the fun in that!?
    As jardo has said bottom ends are cheap enough.

    But, i doubt that with a stock turbo you will be on the edge of aby disaster. So tune away, and cross your fingers when youre hooning it.
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  14. Stuart35205
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    Stuart35205 Member

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    Cheers superkarl that sheds more light , mechanics wise I've dabbled with engines but landrovers/range rovers I have stripped & rebuilt from ground up ( offroading days)! So this I'm afraid is quite out of my comfort zone! Hence bieng shot down for soft questions, lol
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  15. 16Klappe
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    16Klappe Princess Slayer

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    Cool. Go easy on what Paul says (with the greatest of respect) because he is scare mongering a bit, you will be well within the safety realms of stock rods with a K03s at 230bhp. Tuffty couldn't tell you of a single 230bhp K03s that had bent a rod; I'm certain of it. Anything that did go would be down to fatigue and wear, rather than the power being over-rated for the rods if you can understand that.

    For 230bhp you'll need a downpipe and decat and a front mount on top of your current spec. Niki will get 230 out of that no problems, and it'll be safe and reliable.

    Only thing you'll need to do is make sure that everything is up to scratch and the car has no boost leaks and a healthy actuator.
    Last edited: May 19, 2013
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  16. Stuart35205
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    Stuart35205 Member

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    Sweet , 230 is the aim then with a few nice mods I hope to have it back to niki in the not so distant future then .
    Cheers all
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  17. 16Klappe
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    16Klappe Princess Slayer

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    It will probably go something like this at 230bhp -



    Mine was 234 at that video.

    Enjoy, have fun. :)
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 15, 2014
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  18. Stuart35205
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    Stuart35205 Member

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    Need some ASAP
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  19. <tuffty/>
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    <tuffty/> Badger 5 Edition Staff Member Moderator

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    Not scare mongering at all Jardo... in context of the OP's original aim of 280/300 hp thats hybrid territory and hybrids (in my experience and personal view) require rods as k03 based hybrids are spikey little buggers... AUM has 19mm pinned sintered rods with tangless bearings... in contrast other K03 based cars such as the AGU has the same rods the 210/225's have...

    In context my statement stands... while I haven't seen a 19mm std rod fail personally, I have seen them spin bearings and in fairness all of the cars I have seen with ko3 framed turbos running in the 280hp region have already had rods done...

    Back on task... mapped sensibly and with realistic power expectations then you should be ok but the whole rods bending issue is largely unrelated to power levels (although this will promote it) its more down to the age/mileage/how thrashed etc the car is...

    <tuffty/>
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  20. badger5
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    badger5 RIP S3dave Site Sponsor

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    The OPs also mentioning 300bhp in his post..............
    still will YOU guarantee his engines rods will be ok?

    Underwrite any mechanical issues for him then big boy... You are that confident in it.. ;) :)

    Not all K03s achieve the high figures... it is by no means a guarantee that this will be the end result. If healthy unit, yep its has a fair chance.. but there are many many tired units out there

    19mm rods on K03s... are adequate.. for k03s power BUT the OPs suggesting he's after something higher than this, which is bigger turbo/hybrid terrotory

    Old cars these are now
    things wear
    most are fecked already
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  21. superkarl
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    superkarl MAN OF STEEL

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    [​IMG]
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