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Sachs Performance Clutch Write-Up

Discussion in 'A3/S3/Sportback (8P Chassis)' started by AJames, Oct 18, 2009.

  1. AJames
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    AJames Rally Driver - road Audi S3-8P

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    [Oct 18, 2009]
    Hello to all,
    I thought to put you at pace with my experience on the Sachs Performance clutch kit, that appears to be much used and desired.
    The reference part numbers I am talking about are:
    1) SR883082 999787 SRE Clutch Cover
    2) SR881864 999502 SRE Clutch Disc

    I had this kit installed by my Audi dealer two months ago, when I ahchieved what is referred to as Stage 2+.
    The clutch assembly had been installed together with new clutch pedal and clutch actuator OEM pumps.
    The car is pulling about 420-430Nm of torque.

    The problems I had, and reason for which my car has been newly torn apart by my Audi dealer, are:
    - The pedal had loads of compliance.
    - The pedal compliance/clutch release point varied at its pleasure.
    - The gear disengagements were never immediate nor full.
    - This brought to difficulty in changing gears up when driving hard.

    Now, we are talking with the Sachs chief engineer, and this is fresh, so we are still waiting for an answer from them.

    ACCORDING TO THE AUDI DEALER, AND JUSTIFIED BY IMAGES AND MEASUREMENTS- FACTS:
    - Sachs clutch plate is a bit thinner than OEM.
    - Sachs CP's central spring has no pre-tension, at difference from OEM.
    - Sachs CP's central spring sits 8mm further away from pump than OEM.
    - This excessive compliance forces the clutch pump to work out of its ideal range.
    - It is possible that the clutch pump is not strong enough for this plate.
    - It appears that this assembly has been designed for the VW Golf Gti, that would justify the compliance.

    I will now post the images and drawings from Sachs.
    Please let me know if you are having similar problems, maybe you can get a fix together with me.
    Will keep this post updated with Sachs's answers and (I hope) solutions.


    Difference in clutch plate spring position/height (OEM not pre-tensioned):

    [​IMG]


    Difference in Cluth Plate thickness (OEM on the left):

    [​IMG]

    Technical drawing from Sachs, updated with Audi Dealer's measurements:

    [​IMG]



    Assembly view from side:

    [​IMG]


    OEM Clutch assembly, mounted w/spring pre-tensioned:

    [​IMG]


    The condition of my flywheel after two months of Sachs Clutch:

    [​IMG]
    Last edited: Oct 18, 2009
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  3. Staz
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    Staz is a retronaut Staff Member Moderator VCDS Map User

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    [Oct 18, 2009]
    Has anyone else had problems? It's the first I've heard of it and there seems to be quite a few guys with them fitted.
    #2
  4. Broken Byzan
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    Broken Byzan Photographic Moderator Staff Member Moderator VCDS Map User

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    [Oct 18, 2009]
    I thought the Sachs kit was a popular choice used by many, maybe somehow you have been given the wrong CP?
    #3
  5. Iggu
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    Iggu Active Member

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    [Oct 18, 2009]
    I've been putting 360 lb/ft through my Sachs clutch for nearly 10,000 miles now with none of these issues. However I think there are two Sachs kits out there. Your part number is different to mine and my clutch pedal is now so stiff I doubt whether dealers would fit it - it would just bring complaints. I like it . It's stiff but the accuracy of the biting point is superb. But my missus won't drive it now for eg. (which is a bonus). AJames are you sure the Sachs kit you have is the performance version and not just the standard replacement for the old LUX item which Audi recently stopped fitting ?
    Last edited: Oct 18, 2009
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  6. AJames
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    AJames Rally Driver - road Audi S3-8P

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    [Oct 18, 2009]
    Yup mate, the kit is the performance one, bought it direct from Sachs Performance in Germany. You can check the references I listed above.
    Also my pedal is rock hard, but I have been having those problems...

    Could you please give me your part number, so I can cross check with Sachs?
    Thanks,
    AJ
    #5
  7. devonmikeyboy
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    devonmikeyboy As far from JBS as possible !

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    [Oct 18, 2009]
    I have only very very rarely heared anyone have any problems with a Sachs uprated clutch. When there was a problem Sachs have sent out a new clutch straight away and the problem has been solved.
    #6
  8. AJames
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    AJames Rally Driver - road Audi S3-8P

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    [Oct 18, 2009]
    Yup, I am still waiting for an answer from them.
    As you can objectively see in the pictures, the CP's are just different...
    #7
  9. evapor8
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    evapor8 Member

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    [Oct 18, 2009]
    Take from another thread ....

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  10. Iggu
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    Iggu Active Member

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    [Oct 18, 2009]
    AJames - just checked my invoice and I have EXACTLY the same kit as you. No problems at all.
    I know of at least 5 other S3 owners with the same kit - also no problems.
    Very strange. Do you think your dealer is telling you a story just to keep you quiet ?
    #9
  11. AJames
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    AJames Rally Driver - road Audi S3-8P

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    [Oct 18, 2009]
    I do not know what to think. Fact is that I provided the parts to my dealer, and I sourced them directly from Sachs.
    The fact that the CP has different sizes from the OEM is clear, and there to see.
    So, I think the options are two:
    - either Sachs sent the wrong part in the right box
    or
    - my Audi dealership, and its chief mechanic (that has worked for years on race cars) have not been able to mount the kit correctly.

    Am very curious to hear what they say from Sachs...
    #10
  12. AJames
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    AJames Rally Driver - road Audi S3-8P

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    [Oct 18, 2009]
    Yes. the part is the same too...:think:

    What is Audi fitting now?
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  13. Broken Byzan
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    Broken Byzan Photographic Moderator Staff Member Moderator VCDS Map User

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    [Oct 18, 2009]
    Well the height in the CP will get taken up by the slave cylinder tbh, Much the same as when your pads wear on the brakes, rarely do you have more travel As once more fluid had been taken in, the slave piston will settle just off the tension point
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  14. AJames
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    AJames Rally Driver - road Audi S3-8P

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    [Oct 18, 2009]
    It is an idea, but compliance is a dangerous thing if you go out of the working range. In my case we are talking of 8mm's, and a CP that doesn't even have its spring in pre-tension like the OEM part.
    Fact is that the clutch wasn't managing to completely dis-engage the primary shaft, and that is given by the slave cylinder not managing to push all the way...
    #13
  15. Iggu
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    Iggu Active Member

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    [Oct 18, 2009]
    It must be the wrong part in the box AJames - has to be.
    There is no other explanation surely ??
    #14
  16. AJames
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    AJames Rally Driver - road Audi S3-8P

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    [Oct 19, 2009]
    So today I got an answer from Sachs's main man. :)

    Basically it appears they have committed a mistake, and that the CP they sent me matches the reference, but is not fully compliant with the S3 8P.
    Infact, our cars have been built with a variety of clutch/fly assemblies, that have matured and changed from OEM as problems popped up.
    It then appers that they had done their compliance tests on an early version...
    Result: and that on mine there is an 11mm distance between the CP's spring and the spring actuator (pump-pusher), where there should be none.
    It almost works, because the pusher tries to compensate, but not near to as well as it should.
    Solution: they took the reference number of my LUK pump-pusher, and will issue another, longer and reinforced part to me.
    There you go, another one we won!
    #15
  17. Iggu
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    Iggu Active Member

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    [Oct 19, 2009]
    Good result AJames. I see your car is a 2008 car (probably MY09 ??). Mine is a 57 plate MY08 car - so maybe that's the answer.
    #16
  18. devonmikeyboy
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    devonmikeyboy As far from JBS as possible !

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    [Oct 19, 2009]
    Sachs customer services wins the day again.
    #17
  19. Rabbit222
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    Rabbit222 Active Member

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    [Oct 20, 2009]
    Nice read and thanks for the heads up AJames. My SACHS replacement clutch recently started slipping again. I'm not sure if this is because my Audi dealer used my old DMF? The car is making the power but it seems the clutch is not doing its work of putting the power down...doubt Audi will replace the clutch again?
    #18
  20. Iggu
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    Iggu Active Member

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    [Oct 20, 2009]
    There's no way the Sachs will slip under the power we have from Stage 2+. When the Sachs is installed you should put a new DMF in at the same time - this makes it a costly exercise but is essential to prevent slippage on an already marked DMF. When I was doing my research on the Sachs upgrade this was the universal advice of everyone I spoke to. If they have used the old DMF on yours Rabbit this will be the problem I'm sure.
    #19
  21. Rabbit222
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    Rabbit222 Active Member

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    [Oct 20, 2009]
    Cheers Iggu, I'm sending my Service advisor this link now so that he can have a read....
    #20
  22. Scorpius
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    Scorpius The S Factor

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    [Oct 20, 2009]
    Are you speaking here about the Sachs performance clutch that you have or the Sachs replacement part from Audi? What Rabbit222 has is the replacement part from Audi.. so would you say that the OEM part should be able to comfortably handle Stage2+?
    #21
  23. Iggu
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    Iggu Active Member

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    [Oct 20, 2009]
    Ah - good point Scorpius. It is confusing that there are two Sachs kits out there. I was assuming Shaun had the Performance Clutch which is what I was referring to. I know nothing about the capabilities of the Sachs replacement part other than it is supposed to be stronger than the OEM Lux version. But since the Lux version appeared to be made of cream cheese I suppose that isn't saying much.
    #22
  24. AJames
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    AJames Rally Driver - road Audi S3-8P

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    [Oct 21, 2009]
    Hello, other update:
    - today my Audi dealer sent the DMF, the two full clutch assemblies (OEM+Sachs Performance), and the clutch pump/acutator up to Sachs, as from their request.
    They will try to engineer a solution with all the parts there to compare.
    Will let you know how things unfold.
    Cheers,
    AJ
    #23
  25. S3GG
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    S3GG Member

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    [Nov 1, 2009]
    Scary stuff my clutch has started to slip and I need an uprated Sachs clutch due to stage 2.... can't imagine this happening to me and I really will take measures to get it right..

    Im thinking of calling up Sachs, they seem to have a customer friendly number on the website. Telling them my model make which is late 2006 giving them my serial number stating every detail in the book..

    This is going to be my second clutch, my first went out at 20k and had to change the flywheel too because I delayed the change. Asap Monday I'm going to look into the matter I've also got stuff coming over in the mail which is going to make some more power so its definitely the right time.

    Its gonna feel like a different car when all the stuff gets built together... cai, dv, short shifters, spacers 12mm r and 10mm front, various hoses kit... and now the clutch.

    Been advised to change the clutch but keep some OEM parts in order to maintain the factory tension... Hopefully this clutch can hold up.
    #24
  26. gingers3
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    gingers3 Member

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    [Nov 1, 2009]
    hi guys , how much does the uprated clutch kit cost inc installation ?
    #25
  27. Spin140
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    Spin140 Active Member

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    [Nov 2, 2009]
    Around £1,100 inc new flywheel.
    #26
  28. david_phillips95
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    david_phillips95 Member VCDS Map User

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    [Nov 2, 2009]
    thats seems really cheap? the clutch kit from sachs is 600Euros which is around £550, a new flywheel from audi is around the 400 - 500 mark if i remember correctly and for installation i got quoted £350. so that works out around £1300 - £1400. Depending on mileage could you not just skim the mating surface of the flywheel? my car is less than 20k miles so the flywheel will have very little wear. After speaking to various mechanics they said the usual procedure would be to skim the surface to reveal fresh metal. your only talkin about removing the smallest amount. Anyone else heard about this method?
    #27
  29. AJames
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    AJames Rally Driver - road Audi S3-8P

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    [Nov 7, 2009]
    Hello everyone, and thank you for your posts.
    I hope I manage to answer you all with this:

    After having physically send Sachs Racing my standard clutch assembly (LUK brand, as in all S3's) and my Sachs uprated clutch plate and cover:
    - They have carried out centesimal measurements, and - their clutch/cover is about 3mm lower than the original part, with the center spring in working condition (50% pre-charge).
    - This distance increases the initial aperture of the clutch plate pump/push assembly, but it is in acceptable compliance.
    The effect you will see is: the first centimeter or so in your clutch pedal's excursion will basiacally run free. This is ok, don't worry too much.
    - My LUK flywheel WAS DEFECTIVE, so, one received all the stuff back from Sachs, I had a new, OEM clutch installed, and now it all works perfect.

    So:thumbsup:hands up and thank you to Sachs Performance service, although the part is not perfectly equal to standard (because it has to fit a variety of models in the VW group offering), they have questioned themselves, and relied to be trust worthy.

    I just got back from a track day in Monza F1 full circuit.
    The only problem left is my BRAKES!!!!:wtf:
    #28
  30. mattandrew
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    mattandrew Member VCDS Map User

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    [Jan 27, 2010]
    Are there two different tyres of flywheel then, ie SACHS or LUK
    #29
  31. CJ3BLUE
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    CJ3BLUE Member

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    [Jan 27, 2010]
    I need a flywheel and gave Audi my chassis number and they say i req a LUK unit,i asked about the sachs and they said they would only change "like for like".
    Im ordering the Sachs organic clutch and wanted the sachs flywheel as seemingly they dont agree with the LUK one.....im confused as to what to do now !!
    #30
  32. david_phillips95
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    david_phillips95 Member VCDS Map User

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    [Jan 27, 2010]
    I can only find a LUK DMF number, audi and sachs have told me they do not do a DMF for the S3 8P altho they do manufacture a clutch and cover.

    Davie
    #31
  33. david_phillips95
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    david_phillips95 Member VCDS Map User

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    [Jan 28, 2010]
    Just a quick update, got the car back and the juddering is gone:thumbsup: seems the clutch was just settling in woooo. There is a little movement in the pedal before biting point but nothing excessive. Sachs did confirm that the clutch will judder for the first 1000 miles as it needs to bed in this is the case any clutch. The clutch feels a million times better than standard, bite point is very accurate and feels far more precise than the standard unit. :) I can confirm the DMF i installed is a brand new LUK unit.

    There are rumours of a Sachs DMF for Audi S3 8P - Audi & Sachs both confirmed that there is not a Sachs DMF available for the Audi S3 8P

    THE SACHS PERFORMANCE CLUTCH KIT WILL CAUSE NO ISSUES TO AN S3 WITH A LUK DMF INSTALLED, JUST CLEARING THIS UP FOR EVERYONE

    Cheers Davie
    Last edited: Jan 28, 2010
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  34. lour32
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    lour32 New Member

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    [Feb 11, 2010]
    AJames, so did you install the Sachs Race clutch from your text above it seems you went with a new OEM clutch, is that correct? So Sachs answer is you can use the clutch it just that there will be play for the first couple of centimeters before clutch is fully engaged.
    #33
  35. S3JET
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    S3JET Member

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    [May 22, 2010]
    Hi, guys.

    After seeing all this information.

    I have still got one more question to ask if anyone here can help me out.

    I was told by REVO to stay away from SMF.

    So what i have read from everyone on here.

    I should get a LUK and fitted with SRE clutch cover + SRE Performance clutch disc at a special rate. Transmittable torque 480+Nm!!!!

    All i find out from everyone is that its good set up for stage2 plus.

    But now I am doing a REVO STAGE3 with GT3071R.

    Will this set up still be strong enough to hold the power??

    Or i better of getting a SMF??
    #34
  36. mattandrew
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    mattandrew Member VCDS Map User

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    [May 22, 2010]
    Correct, you need to get the OEM LUK flywheel and the uprated sachs clutch and cover. From what i understand the SMF makes the car harder to drive as a daily.

    What else are you changing to go stage 3, is it just the turbo GT3071R? Is there any need to uprae internals
    #35
  37. S3JET
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    S3JET Member

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    [May 22, 2010]
    I have already done stage 2 plus on my car, so its got HPFP, Forge DV, Milltek turbo back, ITG intake.

    So now i am getting the turbo kit with all the pipes, RS4 injectors, and clutch.

    Will this set up (LUK and fitted with SRE clutch cover + SRE Performance clutch disc at a special rate. Transmittable torque 480+Nm) hold the amount of powers that stage 3 makes??

    Thanks for the reply!!
    #36
  38. mattandrew
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    mattandrew Member VCDS Map User

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    [May 22, 2010]

    Im running the same hardware as you currently, but already have the clutch.

    When you say all the pipes which do you mean?

    Whats the cost of the turbo kit and all the pipes and the rs4 injectors.

    Im 99.9% the clutch setup is is fine for stage3 its what others have used
    #37
  39. S3JET
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    S3JET Member

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    [May 22, 2010]
    #38
  40. akash_sky1
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    akash_sky1 Active Member

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    [Oct 20, 2010]
    Davie dont have your number and know you have sold your s3 but have PMd you regarding issues with my Sachs.
    Did it really take 1000 miles to bed yours in? that will take forever for me with the miles I do :_(
    my bite point is super high and as I have mentioned in another thread it still slips under load in the mid range. It has about 500 miles on it so far and have been fairly conservative with NO hard launches at all and no intentional slipping on uptake.
    Any help would be appreciated.
    PS i have 999787 999502 Sachs pressure plate and clutch disc with LUK OEM DMF same as everyone else.
    #39
  41. akash_sky1
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    akash_sky1 Active Member

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    [Oct 29, 2010]
    I think I have the same problem. My new clutch assembly has been stripped again -checked, no faults found apart from score marks from the slipping, and a new master cylinder installed.
    I think Sachs have given me the wrong part for my LUK flywheel. The bite point is sooooo high, and the brand new assembly slips in NORMAL driving- clearly a HUGE lack of clamping force.

    I have driven today around town- and it slips in normal driving! Sachs best be paying for a new DMF for me as well.

    Nearly 2 weeks without car, gearbox removed twice and clutch assembly re-installed twice with all new ancillaries, and get a car with worse clutch slip then with my old knackered one :-( Very unhappy.
    #40

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