S6 Purchase or E39 M5

jq_quint

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So I bought an B5 S4 in Dec and am paying the price for the tiny passenger space...(previous car was a C5 A6 Beauty 2.8), and with the misses having our third in the summer I need to go bigger, great car but just to small....

So do I go S6 ? Any advice guys?

Or do I go E39 M5 ?

Anyone be able to give me pro's / con's. & real performance difference?
I already know the C5 and I think its a great car, but don't know anything about the S6 engine.
And my mate used to have an E39 M5 , , it was awesome.....
 
I had a similar (ish) dilemma a while back. I liked the look of the 535/540i BMW with the V8. However I am a bit of a power freak and I discovered that the 3.5 in the 535 was 'only' 247 bhp and the 4.4 in the 540 was 'only' 290bhp. Hardly any scope for mild tuning in the beemers. Same has to be said for the S6 with its V8. At least that has 320bhp to start with :)
I plumped for the 2.7 biturbo and with a £225 remap Ive got almost 320bhp anyway.

An M5 is a different animal altogether though..... Its a difficult choice. I would imagine the S6 is more spacious being the larger car but you cant argue with the M5s power figures.
The one thing for me is the lack of an avant/estate with the M5. I would love an S6 avant. Such a sexy looking car :)
You might find insurance is through the roof with an M5.... Small price to pay for 400bhp though....:icon_thumright:
 
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Thats a thought a 2.7t avant A6..I assumed though as these were naturally less power than an S4 they couldn't be mapped as high? not the case then?
 
They were slightly detuned- 230 Bhp or thereabouts...
 
If you get a Quattro version with a manual box then its 250. Will map to over 300. :)
 
I think all of the Quattros were 250, the fwd's were 230. I think

I thought about autos, I loved the idea of the CVT box but thats only available in fwd and Ive read horror stories about the multitronic boxes all over the interweb!

Personally Im not 100% convinced about any auto box and when they go wrong its big bucks to repair.
 
Well i'm a bit of a lazy driver, and i used to have the 5 speed auto in my C5 2.8 qtro, it was a beaut to drive...so i would defo go for another..
 
Fair play then, make sure its a tipronic as they seem to have less trouble than the multi!

also if youre a performance buff, the tip is over half a second slower to 60 than the manual! (hence whyI got a 6 sp manual ;) )
 
Fair play then, make sure its a tipronic as they seem to have less trouble than the multi!

whats the visible difference? My old one had a + & - on the side of the auto selector to allow manual up and down, is this tip then?
 
Ok so i've got the bmw thing out of my head and its defo another A6..

Question is though 2.7t or S6,? 2.7's are about half the price and I guess once mapped similar power...? any thoughts?

Would an S6 be dissapointing after an S4? on paper the performance isn't great (slower than the S4)? Anyone drove both?
 
Right then, a6 2.7t's were only ever available in quattro form, they either have a 6 speed manual or a 5 speed auto tiptronic!

The 98-01 models had 230hp regardless of gearbox and from 01 onwards when they facelifted them they had 250hp regardless of box!

With a very basic remap you will see about 320hp and anywhere from 320-386 lb. ft depending on the mapper!

The manual you wont have many problems with when it comes to power, when the clutch goes drop in a Rs4 clutch and your set!

However the autos can be a pain in the ****! I really wouldnt go mapping to anything above 320 lb. ft without upgrading the Torque converter first, or at the very least a decent tip chip, GIAC, Vast etc! Also Audi claim lifetime oil in the auto's, this is utter BS, change it every 60k at least to save on problems further down the line!

However dont let this put you off the Auto, ive got one and love it, you can manually re-code the box using VAg-com which massively improves the way it shifts, makes it a fantastic box IMO! If you wre on a quest for big power, its siply a case of changing the Valve body and the Torque converter to beefier items, then you can start thinking of K04's etc!

Be wary that turbo's will go, and when they do be prepared for a 4 figure bill if going through a garage, or if you do it yourself at least £600 for a set of turbo's, life expectancy of these units can vary from 100k to 180k miles, it all depends on how they've been looked after!

I love mine, its a ****** fantastic car, 322hp can see of most things nowadays, the repair bills can be big and sometimes frequent, afterall this is a sports saloon, but believe me BMW //M gear is twice as expensive, and when them big V8's go wrong, they really go wrong!
 
Thanks for the detailed response nora,

So would you reccomend the 2.7t over an S6 then? wouldn't the S6 (with no turbo's) be less risk when it comes to repair..?
 
The S6 is a different beastie all together!

Pretty bombproof engines the 4.2, although the auto box has the same issues, and from reading on the US forums, can be more frequent!

Im pretty sure the quattro system is different on the S6, different suspension, and the later models come with the HP2 brake setup, ****** good calipers!

Expect, well, poor economy! lol
 
According to my handbook, mines a 250bhp on a 99 plate so I guess its luck of the draw what you get. Its all much of a muchness anyway because they remap to just about the same figures.

For the extra money you would pay for an S6 in buying and insurance, a 2.7t is a sensible choice. Should see around 30mpg on a long run with the cruise control on.

Once remapped they dont half shift.
The only thing about the V8 is the sexual noise. My neighbour has a B6 S4 and the noise is awesome.
 
Oh yeah for me the better choice was the 2.7t, I was also considering the S6, but the the tuning and optional power available for the 2.7 won the day for me! Stcik on some K04's, Rs4 pipework, intercoolers, downpipes and a map should see an easy 450hp, if i ever feel the need! lol

Although the noise from the V8 is nice, so is the noise from a turbo'ed V6! lol

The one biggest thing that really attracts me to the S6 is the nice wide body compared to A6's!
 
The one biggest thing that really attracts me to the S6 is the nice wide body compared to A6's!
Totally agree, they look awesome...
Would an S6 be really much more uneconomical? and I guess would it be fair to say a mapped 2.7t would keep up with one?
 
My mapped 2.7t will get me about 31mpg on a motorway run at a solid 70mph, about 24mpg round the doors, and when pushing ive had it as low 6mpg! lol

Not sure on the S6, but a big thirsty V8 is never economical! Thing is with the 2.7, keep it off boost and you should see a good mpg return!

The S6 produces 310 lb. ft at 3400rpm, the stock 2.7t produces 258 lb. ft at 1800rpm, remap a manual or an auto if your brave properly and you will see 386 lb. ft at roughly 1900rpm, in other words im pretty confident a mapped 2.7t will beat a S6 hands down! Also take into account the S6 weighs in at about 1800kg and the 2.7t about 1600kg!

You will not be dissapointed with the 2.7t, trust me!
 
30mpg on a steady cruise, 22mpg rush hour motorway combo and 12mpg is the worse i ever got being stuck in brum for nearly 2 hours. Each to their own though, but one thing i have to say....No turbo, No Lag ;)
 
S6, M5 or 2.7T...

Tough call, and I can see all sides of all arguments.

I love the M5's and in their sector they widely seem to be acknowledged as the 'best in sector'. My boss has 3 kids in a 530d MSport and suffers with the rear seat bench as the rear seats are quit crafted (bolsters raise up), making it very difficult to seat all the kids comfortably (with appropriate booster seats etc.). Don't know if the E39 will suffer the same (as the E60), but may be worth going to see one. Although I'm a VAG man through and through I have an itch to scratch for an M5, and one day when I have the supporting funds I must do it. And this is the challenge, 4.9 litre V8 with 394 horses usually equals horrific service and maintenance bills over 5 years old (unless you find a one owner loved low mileage model).

I suppose the S6 (another fantastic car), is likely to come with the same drawbacks of running costs. I assume you're looking C5 model, so 4.2 V8 is another fuel guzzling monster, but again a car which will make the hairs on the back of your neck stand up every time you start it.

All in all it does make the 2.7 look the best bet.
 
Thanks for all the advice guys, I guess the only things that are niggling me is
1) Expectation of performance
2) Repair costs

Expectation
I currently own an S4 and (apart from the space) i'm happy with it, but 2 weeks ago I got totally blown away by a scooby (straight line drag). My S4 is not mapped by the way.
so if i go A6 2.7t then map it, will it be a substantially better performer (it will sure be a better size)?

Repair Costs
Everyday I read either this forum or the B5 A4 one i'm reminded about the turbo replacement costs on the 2.7 and it sends shivers down my spine....Would an S6 be 'Less Risk'? Or due to the 2.7's be substantially less money is it worth the risk?

And this is where the M5 came in, no doubt about the performance but unsure of the engine repairs.....Would rather stick with audi, but was very surprised by the S6 performance figures (no where near an E39 M5)....

ohhhh think my head is about to explode....
 
30mpg on a steady cruise, 22mpg rush hour motorway combo and 12mpg is the worse i ever got being stuck in brum for nearly 2 hours. Each to their own though, but one thing i have to say....No turbo, No Lag ;)

Those mpg figures don't seem too bad, how many miles your engine done?
And is the performance better than the stats suggest, I think my S4 2.7 isn't great mid range, does the S6 have a bit more grunt mid range?
 
I wouldnt worry too much about getting beaten by a scooby. I came from a scooby to my A6 and it would eat anything (and I mean anything) off the line. Mine was about 280bhp (not alot in the scooby modified world) and I clocked 60 in less than 5 secs from a full throttle launch. Apart from the sheer off the line speed and grip that defies gravity they dont have an awfult lot else going for them.

Thing is with the 2.7t engine, its totally transformed by a remap. Turbos spool quicker, masses more midrange grunt and top end power is also improved. Its frightening how fast the speedo needle moves, 80-120 happens in no time at all.

The A6 is a big luxury cruiser though, not a sports car. I guess a mapped one would have the edge on a standard S4 in a race but its the sheer cruising ability and comfort of the A6 that made me buy one over the S4 that I looked at.

That video of the straight pipes is awesome. My wallet will not like me watching that!
 
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About the scooby thing, i too came from a world of scoobies, had a V4 sti running 327hp, and Fox is right, nothing at all can beat it off the mark, even bikes struggled to beat me to the 100mph mark, remember on these things are only geared for 140ish mph so the acceleration will always be brutal!

But coming back from a football match the other week with 2 of my mates, 1 in a std scooby bugeye wrx and the other in a classic with a few bits on it, doing 70mph down the carriageway, all booted it and my Audi just sort of dissapeared, carried on pulling all way to 150 with ease and revs left! Of course this was our private carrigeway!

As has been said the 2.7t isnt a sports car, its a big german luxury car which happens to have a bit of poke! lol But like i said if your wanting big power, 450hp is very very easy to reach!
 
If you want reliability then stick with something that has the performance out of the box IMHO :) it's alright mapping stuff but on big engined cars like the 2.7T it ay gonna be cheap to repair if all goes wrong! Regards to mid range grunt of the S6 it's all the way through and soo progressive you don't feel the actual speed your travelling at until you look at the clock and think oh sh it that was a bit quick hey lol but like the other chap said it's a big luxury cruiser estate with bags of space, fully loaded, the recaros are the best i've ever sat in too .... If your after performance then get an RS6 :p If money is the issue then get a 1.9TDi...
 
S6 all the way.... The extras you get inside and the widebody and the v8.... Priceless. Get an LPG converted one if your worried about economy.
 
I bought a 2003 S6 Avant last August .... stock exept for the fact that previous owner had pranged it & so it has a complete new front end, all shiny new. I just love it. More than enough performance unless you want to race it, fantastic handling with quattro & slightly lower & stiffer suspension, without the ride being too harsh (unless you hit a new pothole just wrong!), and bags of space for the dog and three teenage kids and all thier stuff. Sure, it's thirsty (av.20mpg), but the sound of the V8 and just the joy of driving it, not to mention looking at it on the drive, makes it all worth while. I had an Audi 100 turbo back in the day, but this is something else entirely. Plus, they're as rare as rocking horse poo, so get lots of questions from admirers. Just do it!
 
I considered an S6 Avant but was put off by the auto box and lack of tuning potential. The M5 just wasn't available as an estate. At least not in right hand drive.
Basically I wanted a manual estate car with a turbo and rear/four wheel drive. I looked at the S4 Avant but it was too small and most were thrashed. It was then that I discovered the A6 2.7T.
They really are lovely cars with only two slight problems. The first problem is the suspension. Compared to my previous 525i the A6 ride is harsher and it understeers. I'm hoping to fix the handling with some anti-roll bars and some geometry tweeks.
The second problem is from a DIY maintenance point of view. Everything is difficult to get to. I actually paid someone to change the timing belt and water pump which is a first for me.

So to sum up. The M5 is more highly tuned than the S6 so engine maintenance and repairs will be higher. One point to the Audi.
The M5 will be more involving to drive through the bends. One point to the BMW.
The S6 is available as an estate. One point to the Audi.
The M5 is only available with a manual gearbox.
The Audi is only available with an auto box.

You're right. This is a tough one. It could go on and on. I guess you need to decide what your top priorities are with regards to handling, gearbox type and load space.
 
After long deliberating I have talked myself into an S6 Avant.....got to finalise my job first in the next 2 weeks as there is a slim chance I may have to travel a fair distance, if this goes ahead all bets are off and i'll probably end up with a 1.9 diesel...lol..

So (assuming I stay at current work location 'close') I will be going for a Dolphin grey S6 Avant (if possible)...

Deciders:

Prefer to buy a higher mileage 4.2 V8 than a 2.7t (scared to death of failing turbo's)
Looking forward to the V8 roar
Loooove the wide body
Exclusivity (2.7t's & M5's more common)
Loved the auto box in a previous 2.8 A6 i had
The M5's seem far more expensive with 'hefty' potenial failures..
No avant in M5

I may struggle with my exact colour combo though dolphin grey + grey leather (not a fan of black leather)

I'll keep you guys posted with my final choice..
 
One thing to add the tiptronic box is superb, you can either have relaxed effortless cruising in drive, or steering shifts like a manual soo best of both worlds in my book :)
 
One thing to add the tiptronic box is superb, you can either have relaxed effortless cruising in drive, or steering shifts like a manual soo best of both worlds in my book :)

Yes good point, maybe I can use that final point to convince the misses..? ha ha
 
I had an S6 and ha bother with the auto box, after spending a fortune on it I sold it after 9 months.. It was hard enough to fuel at 18mpg, but great spec and sounded the ticket.. Put me off autos though!!
 
It's a real shame if you get a problem cuz it would put you off, but its like alot of things.....you have a SH IT indian takeaway from somwhere....are you likely to go back for more....i doubt it lol. Also you only tend to hear the bad stuff as it travels quicker than the good stuff. All i ever hear about the S6 is they're pretty bullit proof and thats from specialists ive dealt with....and the Tiptronic from what i believe was developed by Porcshe and i'd like to think they know a thing or two about mechanics :)
 
Deciders: Prefer to buy a higher mileage 4.2 V8 than a 2.7t (scared to death of failing turbo's) Looking forward to the V8 roar Loooove the wide body Exclusivity (2.7t's & M5's more common) Loved the auto box in a previous 2.8 A6 i had The M5's seem far more expensive with 'hefty' potenial failures.. QUOTE said:
All sensible reasons. If i had the money though, i would have preferred an M5 to my A6 4.2 V8, but as you point out, the used prices are greater and also general repairs more expensive, (albeit parts for the S6 are certainly not budget prices either). Good luck
 
I should imagine if your only running to the local shops and back then i guess yes 18mpg is about right.....well i recently went to wales for long weekend, 60quid of fuel and round trip off 300miles, not sure what that works out too....i think about 26mpg....but i was cruising at 80-90 on a private road (lol) and then quite a few A roads...I can certainly bare with 30quid trip to wales and dont forget car had roof box on, fully loaded too with four passengers :p
 
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to add though....if i'd got the 2.5tdi what will it return 30-35mpg at best....driving the same speeds etc...if it was remapped from 180bhp to i dunno what they are say 215bhp, your likely to be looking at 25-30mpg at a guess, i think personally for the performance, all the luxury extras your get, and the residuals are still pretty strong on these cars (dont forget people dont buy these for economy, its a 344bhp V8 load lugging cruiser) i think they are defo worth the 5-10mpg of say a 1.8 or 2.0T....but thats my appinion....if you worried about economy, why even consider an S6? :p
 
if you worried about economy, why even consider an S6? :p

there's being worried and facing bankrupcy after being wiped out week after week on fuel..ha ha..

If I can return early to mid 20's daily then I will be quite happy....

The whole "if your worried about economy you shouldn't be looking at an S6", can get a little tiresome sometimes...economy is ALWAYS important regardless of the vehicle matey...

anyways, started ball rolling, my S4 is up for sale now.....S6 Avant here i come.......
 

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