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S4 Tiptronic conundrum

Discussion in 'Audi S4/A4/A4 Cab (B7 Chassis)' started by HoppyUK, Jan 29, 2009.

  1. HoppyUK
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    HoppyUK New Member

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    Hello guys :s4addict:

    I'm new here, just got my 55-plate S4 auto last week. After a lot of searching, I chose it over an M3 E46, R32, and an older 911. Very happy indeed (apart from mpg!) but...

    Peak power is 340bhp at 7,000rpm. Red line is 7,000. However, the car will not rev higher than 6,800. It changes up. In sport, kick-down or manual, it always changes up around 6,700-6,800 no matter what. Therefore I am not getting 340bhp at all. Never.

    Put it another way, Audi might as well say it produces 400bhp at 8,000 but since it cannot rev that high, you won't be seeing it.

    My question is, are other folks' S4 autos the same? What about manual cars? Do they rev to the red line, or even to the limiter which I would expect to be 7,200rpm or thereabouts.

    This is all further confused by the handbook which has various illustrations with the red line at either 6,500, or 6,700 depending on which picture you look at. Yet the sales brochure produced when the car was new has a bhp/torque graph that clearly runs up to 7,200... :think:

    Can other owners shed any light on this?

    Many thanks,

    Richard.
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  2. razza1
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    razza1 Well-Known Member

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    Even in manual mode? Surely it wouldn't change up unless you changed it?
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  3. aragorn
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    aragorn "Stick a V8 in it!" Staff Member Moderator

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    i know its tiptronic, so is always semi-auto, but i'd have expected that if in "manual" mode, it would just rev out to the limiter and stay there instead of shifting.
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  4. mattfinn
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    mattfinn Smoking is good for you

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    What about the torque figure, the bulk of the torque will be lower down the rev range, and taper off higher up.
    Torque is where its at
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  5. aragorn
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    aragorn "Stick a V8 in it!" Staff Member Moderator

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    No its not.

    Torque is an instantaneous force, it does not tell you how a vehicle will accelerate, what you need to know, is work done, ie power.

    An analogy, based on electrical terminology: If you've got something thats using 20Amps and i've got something thats using 10Amps that doesnt tell you anything, because you dont have all the numbers.

    If i then tell you my widget is drawing 3000watts and yours 2000watts, you know which item is going to do more work, and if that work is creating kinetic energy, the 3000w one is going to do more.

    Watts like horsepower is a measure of power. Torque on its own is analogous to current, without knowing the other values, you cant tell what the end result is going to be in terms of work done.
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  6. razza1
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    razza1 Well-Known Member

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    Exactly my thoughts, my Supra was automatic, but in manual mode if I didn't change up in time (in moments of forgetting what gear I was actually in...:blush:), it would bounce off the rev limiter, not a nice feeling or sound....
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  7. HoppyUK
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    HoppyUK New Member

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    Thanks for the replies guys. Very useful info razza :yes:

    aragorn, that is what I would expect too. But it doesn't stick to the rev limiter, it always changes up, some 500rpm below the limiter and 2-300rpm below peak power. What I would like to know is, are other folks' S4 Tipronics lke this?

    I also agree on your comment about torque aragorn. Torque is used as a shorthand for 'mid-range bhp' and gets much misunderstood. If people would simply take torque x rpm/5252 we would all be much clearer about what the force is which actually makes a car move at lower revs, but I digress...

    By way of further comment, I will say that my wife's TT 3.2 V6 with the S-Tiptronic dual-clutch gearbox also changes up before the limiter. It actually runs like this - peak power 6,300, change up 6,500, red line 6,550, limiter 6,700. This isn't quite what I would like, as in manual I think it should go to the limiter and stay there as long as the driver is stupid enough to let it rev. However, the car will always realise full power and even go beyond it (in all gearbox modes). This is acceptable, but my S4 will not do that at all.

    I will also relate how a friend's RS4 with manual box runs. Peak power 7,800, red line 8,000, limiter 8,200. It will bounce off the limiter all day long. He would not be happy if his car was artifically prevented from ever revving beyond 7,500rpm, which is effectively what is happening to my car. I am being robbed of both rev range and power, which the car is clearly advertised as having.

    I know it's kind of hypothetical in practise as I don't track the car, but I'm not happy about it at all :( Would you be?

    Richard.
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  8. ChuckH
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    ChuckH Member

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    Audi Tiptronics Will change up to the next gear without Your input or permision As the gearbox ECU overides the driver to protect the engine ......
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  9. HoppyUK
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    HoppyUK New Member

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    Yes Chuck. That's what seems to be happening, but it's not how it should be. The rev limiter is there to protect the engine. I bought and paid for a performance car, and I have not got either the rev range or the power that Audi promised me.

    I accept that Tipronics do not accelerate quite like manuals, and that they use more fuel. That's stated in the handbook. But nowhere does it say they won't rev out, even to the quoted maximum power level? Audi points out that you need to feed it with Super Unleaded to get maximum power - what's the point when it won't even rev to maximum power?

    My wife's TT is also automatic (dual clutch Tiptronic-S). It revs beyond peak power and on to the red line which is 200rpm above that. Her car (3.2 V6) does not have it's wings clipped 'to protect the engine'. The engine obviously doesn't need protecting - it's got a limiter for that.

    I'm being short changed, and Audi is being more than economical with the truth in its performance claims for my car. It is telling lies, in fact, saying that the car will produce 340bhp when in fact it never can. Would you be happy if your car never, ever made peak power?

    Imagine the RS4 owner who has 414bhp at 7,800rpm, and an engine that will happily sing to 8,200rpm before the limiter. How would they feel if the revs were artificially cut at 7,500rpm? That is effectively what I am getting.

    Thanks again.

    Richard :( <miffed>
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  10. audiS42005
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    audiS42005 New Member

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    Hi Everyone...

    I have a 2005 S4 auto, and a 2004 S4 manual.


    They both have the same engine, but the manual is faster in 0-60, as it is allowed to go through the full limit of the rev meter. The auto is not allowed by the Ecu and Gear Box due to effects it might make on the engine and transmission.
    I think if i upgrade the Ecu and Gearbow Ratio`s and remove the limiters, it might do something with the power to give the auto car that little bit extra THAT IS MISSING.
    But believe me I WAS NOT HAPPY AT ALL WHEN THE NEWER AUTO S4 WAS SLOWER THAN THE OLDER MANUAL. I would have been happy if it was at least the SAME as the manual version.
    Saying all that........there is a super charger coming out for the S4.. which will take the same auto box to a massive 450+ bhp..................so what will harm the engine more?
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