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S4 Exhaust Manifolds - wanted....

Discussion in 'A4/S4 forum(B5 Chassis)' started by calvin, May 10, 2010.

  1. calvin
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    calvin parked up

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    [May 10, 2010]
    Due to a change of heart and lack of time, I am looking to change my rattley exhaust manifolds the quickest way possible - with better, standard items.

    Therefore am looking to get a pair of good used, or even new facelift ones. Would even consider pre-facelift ones that I can seam weld before fitting to stop the dreaded detachment of the inners.

    So, anyone know of anyone who has done some shiny / power upgrades but has the standard parts left over?

    or other thoughts / suggestions on this - I want to be able to whip the lump out, change the parts and lob it back in - as quick as poss without other issues / jobs to do..

    Ta.
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  3. Matt82
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    Matt82 Active Member

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    [May 10, 2010]
    i suppose youll check the turbos for the obvious issues, maybe lambda and egts whilst its all in bits too.

    dont envy you though, but would love to be involved in that if you fancy a hand. its a tad early but i dont think sussex is too far from me
    #2
  4. calvin
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    calvin parked up

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    [May 10, 2010]
    Would appreciate a hand - have a fully equipped (Zillions of Teng Tools), light and airy new race shop / barn (good mate of mine) to do the work in, with plenty of other projects (racing Legends etc) around to keep you interested too if you get bored! - have PM'd you..

    Turbos are already replaced, engine has been out 3 times in last 18 months for various reasons - manifolds looks to have caused my turbo issues initially, so hoping to fix once and for all...

    Ok, so now just need some manifolds!! anyone?
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  5. Ben_Lucas43
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    Ben_Lucas43 Contemplating trip to the Ring

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    [May 10, 2010]
    #4
  6. Matt82
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    Matt82 Active Member

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    [May 10, 2010]
    calvin, just out of curiosity, have you been under the car to pin point the rattle?

    i bought my car with a rattle on the offside. i put it down to a heatshield.

    i spent a couple minutes under the car with a stethoscope etc and found the offending shield (the one that covers over the top of the compressor housing on the offside blower)

    it still flapped a little after a nipped up the little 10mm bolt. pulled the engine bay apart, got access to the second bolt. nipped that up and job done.

    i then got both bolts out, loctited them and job done
    #5
  7. calvin
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    [May 10, 2010]
    Ok, think I've found me a pair of manifolds (thanks to AudiSRS) - AND some help (Cheers Matt!).

    Now, just need to complete my shopping list - would anyone be so kind as to let me know part numbers for the manifold gaskets (both types) for a '98 S4 - My dealer is a bit **** to say the least, so I need to be forearmed to order the right bits.

    From memory from last time I will also need the metal downpipe gaskets (or can I reuse these?)

    Apart from the usual fluids and regassing, and he gaskets above, what else do / might I need if I am whipping it all out, changing manifolds and plopping it back in again?

    Its JUST been serviced, so all oil and filters etc are done very recently (like 500 miles) and Turbos are new, as are heatsheild, thermostat, cambelt etc.

    Oh, and finally, I am thinking of removing the pre-cats (been told by several people this is good thing to do for flow) - any comments either way? (I'm hoping to pick up a secondhand spare exhaust shortly too, so can experiment before it all goes back on) - If I do this do I then need to consider a check on my remap due to increased flow??

    Sorry for all the queries, but am keen to make sure I do this right, and ONCE!!
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  8. Matt82
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    Matt82 Active Member

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    [May 10, 2010]
    if you fancy an exhaust ive got the 3inch milltek still in the cupboard under my stairs that i never fitted
    #7
  9. evilbow
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    evilbow Member

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    [May 10, 2010]
    Would that be from cat to back? if Calvin isnt I may well be if it'll fit my 1998 1.8 saloon? Pm me if for sale with price etc thanks
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  10. aragorn
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    aragorn "Stick a V8 in it!" Staff Member Moderator VCDS Map User

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    [May 10, 2010]
    evilbow: Matts exhaust will be for an S4, and it wont fit your FWD car.
    #9
  11. mckay9uk
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    mckay9uk A4 2.4 30V PES Supercharged

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    [May 11, 2010]
    I'm after a manifold i've seen these on ebay :Item number:200468763310Item location:West Midlands, United KingdomPost to:Worldwide
    what i want to know is will the manifold end bolt up to the v6 A4 heads, i know the other end will not fit but i'm designing a custom exhaust
    for my Supercharged A4 this will be a good easy mod if it can be made to work .
    Thanks
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  12. mckay9uk
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    mckay9uk A4 2.4 30V PES Supercharged

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    [May 11, 2010]
    check these on Ebay:Item number:200468763310Item location:West Midlands, United KingdomPost to:Worldwide
    #11
  13. aragorn
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    aragorn "Stick a V8 in it!" Staff Member Moderator VCDS Map User

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    [May 11, 2010]
    They will fit a Naturally aspirated V6 so long as its a 30v, i doubt they'll be much use though, they'll probably crack in no time.
    #12
  14. calvin
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    [May 11, 2010]
    Bringing this gently back on topic.... :ermm:

    Can anyone help with my specific query (please?!) as my ETKA doesnt cover my particular model S4:

    1. I need to know which gaskets I will need to complete the manifold swapover, and the part numbers if poss

    2. Can I reuse the the metal downpipe gaskets (changed them last engine out time)

    3. Any other gaskets / parts I should consider or might have missed at the same time?

    4. If I gut the pre-cats (and possibly fit a milltek - cheers MattS4 might take you up on that...) do i need consider a re-re map (its been MRC'd but that was a while ago?

    (Its JUST been serviced, so all oil and filters etc are done very recently (like 500 miles) and Turbos are new, as are heatsheild, thermostat, cambelt etc.)
    #13
  15. aragorn
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    aragorn "Stick a V8 in it!" Staff Member Moderator VCDS Map User

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    [May 11, 2010]
    1: Not sure why your ETKA doesnt cover it? Manifold gasket is 078253039G, manifold to turbo is 078145039, turbo to downpipe is 8D0253115F

    2: Personally, i wouldnt, because if it leaks, you'll be doing Mr Rage before setting fire to it :p

    3: By the sounds of it you've already covered most of it, but if you havent then i'd be doing every washer, gasket and oring on the turbos.

    4: No your map wont NEED modified. If you want they'll charge you some money and tweak it a bit to make the most of it, but its entirely optional.
    #14
  16. Blue_Thunder
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    Blue_Thunder Active Member

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    [May 11, 2010]
    Give Stoke Audi a shout, they'll be able to order the gaskets for you if you can give them your VIN number.

    I would recommend changing the DP gaskets for what it will cost you. Imagine you didn't and your exhaust started blowing there!! Forgot if you mentioned previously whether you've changed the clutch. That might as well be done whilst it's all out too if it's got a load of miles on it.

    You won't have to get a new remap if you gut the downpipes and fit a better exhaust, but it would release another 15-30bhp if you did, possibly even more if you get some decent intercoolers fitted too. MRC charged me around £100 for a map tweak last time I went down.
    #15
  17. calvin
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    [May 12, 2010]
    Thanks Aragorn - spot on.

    Collected the manifolds last night (£50), agreed to pick up a spare (complete and good) S4 exhaust to play with the pre-cats for £20 (!) too, and the new gaskets came to £28 all in.

    Wonder if I can do the whole job for under a ton including coffee and biscuits - that would make a nice change to the usual S4 repair work!!

    Am hoping to polish and clean up the facelift manifolds to improve flow a little, and with the pre-cat removal I hope I'll get another 10-15 bhp out of the work...

    cheers all.
    #16
  18. mckay9uk
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    mckay9uk A4 2.4 30V PES Supercharged

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    [May 12, 2010]
    Have you had some of these manifolds before , what makes you think they will crack ?
    i'm uprating my engine mountings anyway.
    #17
  19. aragorn
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    aragorn "Stick a V8 in it!" Staff Member Moderator VCDS Map User

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    [May 12, 2010]
    Because they're cheap ebay stainless steel manifolds.

    Stainless is a horrible manifold material due to its high rate of thermal expansion, and those manifolds make no attempt to incorporate any expansion gaps etc. From what i've heard of them the welding is pretty poor and the collector is really nasty too, so the result is quite likely to be them cracking.
    #18
  20. Matt82
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    Matt82 Active Member

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    [Jun 1, 2010]
    REPORT!

    Nick, need an update.

    We had the lump out on saturday, manifolds off (ill let Nick tell you about those..) a small adjustment was made to the actuator arm on the nearside blower too. I was due to leave at 5:30pm. By 6pm we had the engine back in and on its mounts with most of the bell housing fasteners in place too
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  21. Blue_Thunder
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    Blue_Thunder Active Member

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    [Jun 1, 2010]
    How long did the whole process take Matt? Sounds like a very productive day!
    #20
  22. Matt82
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    Matt82 Active Member

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    [Jun 1, 2010]
    not that long. Nick started the night before getting the front end ready for "service position" and then unplugging the loom from the engine.

    when i arrived the front end was ready to be removed (just needed the AC rad separating, PAS disconnecting etc)

    we spent some time under the car sorting the bell housing bolts, engine mounts and then started hoisting it out (the most grief was caused by the gearbox oil cooler lines. we hadnt unbolted those from the engine. a couple water connections on the back of the lump were hard to get at too

    once "out" (but still hanging on the hoist) it was easy enough to get the manifolds and blowers off

    getting it back in was a bit of a pain (do able single handed i think) but youd be buzzing around like a blue arsed fly raising this and lowering that aligning it all again. with two of you there you can just shout raise this or lower that and off you go.

    no more daunting that removing any other engine tbh but it is really tightly packed in there. id do it again, but i dont own an S4 any more!!
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  23. calvin
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    [Jun 3, 2010]
    Ok, update!!!! (and pics at the end if you can get that far!!)

    Thanks to help from matt and the sacrificing ofmost of my knuckles and finger muscles, my S4 lives again. I started it up last night and ran it up to temp and no leaks, bangs or rattles were evident, so tonight will tidy things up and give it a proper run.

    The job took me 3 hours on Friday where I got the driveshaft covers (b@stards!) off, downpipe heatshields and exhaust off, then the downpipe nuts and all the top covers off. I also got the bumper, headlights and plastics off the front clip. I also wiggled out the downpipes and put them aside (I had prepared de-catted ones from a replacement system). One tip here to add is that I found by removing the EGT sensors early on and all the heatsheild bolts I was able to move the sheilds around a lot to enable easier access to the DP nuts. Finally I drained the oil (and saved it as it was only serviced 1000 miles ago!) and the water from the lower rad hose and sensor outlets.

    I should point out that I had the use of a big dry workshop with a two post lift and plenty of good tools. I also prepared better this time with a paint pen to mark things up, boxes to categorise the bits as they came off, and a proper lambda sensor open socket amongst other bits.

    Then I started again on Saturday at 7am and finished at midnight (!!) - Matt joined me mid morning and we had the lump out by about 1pm, the hardest part being the lowest 3 bellhousing bolts that are completely innaccessible without jacking the engine up with the mounts undone and even then are a PIG!!

    The intercoolers and pipework all come off easily, and the way we did it this time (yes, I did this all only a year ago..) was much simpler in the amount of pipes and cables that had to be disconnected - in effect we didnt mess with any oil lines apart from the gearbox cooler pipes (which had been bodged back into place by the previous engine removal - yeah, thanks Sienna (again)) - more on that later.. These mount onto the OS turbo housing on one bolt which is hard to get to but makes getting the engine impossible if you forget to remove it (as we found!) - once removed, all the oil pipes stay with the car and the engine comes out neatly.

    Matt proposed that we pulled the A/c rad and assembly off to one side to avoid regassing if we could, and this worked - it was only slightly inconvenient to work round it or hold it as the car went up on the lift each time - no biggy. The front clip came off as a complete lump with the water hoses being the biggest pain to persuade that disconnection was a good thing!

    We then used some chain and bolts to use the 3 lifting eyes on the heads / block to lift the lump out with a hoist - we spent ages trying to get bolts / nuts / brackets to make this bit work properly - even on the top of the engine there really is NO room at all!!

    Ok, so at this point the engine is hanging out on the hoist, just clear of the front chassis legs to give us the clearance to remove the manifolds..

    All the manifold nuts undid easily, though the turbo housing bolts (3 in each, 8mm IIRC allen head) were piggies and theres one on each that is hard to access and of came the manifolds..

    Aaarrrrggghhhh!!! - My pre-facelift car has already had the manifolds replaced!!! I had bought a used set ready to fit and the ones we removed were identical - and even had an audi part number sticker on one showing that at some point in my cars early life, the manifolds had been replaced.

    I must admit to feeling slight peeved at this point, BUT AT LEAST I NOW HAD PROOF THAT MY RATTLE WASNT SOMETHING AS SERIOUS AS THE MANIFOLDS BREAKING UP!

    Matt suggested testing the actuators which we did with a little gentle pressure from an air line. The NS turbo (where my rattle originated) seemed to have play in both the arm "bearing" and the actuator "penny" too. We compared the two and both had play but it appeared that the NS one wasnt seating quite properly, so Matt set about adjusting it carefully to get it to seat properly. I must admit this is right out of my skillset as I was led to believe that you cant go adjusting actuators and I have no idea what "right" looks like. However, Matt did, and I left him to it whilst I set about breaking things..

    First I refitted the OS manifold (I compared my existing one to the replacement ones and selected the one that resonated the least and had the neatest port openings just cos really!) and promptly snapped a stud in the block.. off with the manifold again..

    Matt again came to the rescue and by hammering a small 12 point socket onto the stud got enough purchase to unwind it - I found a suitable bolt and replaced it with that.

    Then one of the turbo housing allen bolts wouldnt wind in, and the threads started to strip, so that had to be retapped and a replacement bolt found (amazingly I had a couple of identical allen bolt in my spares box!) necessitating removal of the mainifold again, and finally one of the other studs on the NS head that had unwound on removal wouldnt go back in properly so we had to replace that with a bolt, too!!

    So we lost about 2 hours messing about with studs and bolts before the manifolds were safely and firmly back on and we could wriggle the block back onto the gearbox / splines.

    It never seems to want to go back on and suspect this is because the lump came out at a slight angle and we were struggling to line everything up initially, but with some lumps of wood, a jack and some levering it all popped back into place.

    I spent the rest of the afternoon and evening carefully checking every bolt and connector and got as far as I had the previous night with just the downpipe bolts to tighten and the exhaust to attach, plus the bumper and lights and fluids but spent a good hour and a half trying to fit the gearbox oil pipes back up onto the turbo housing clamp - it seems that they had been bent over by a previous bodger and I had to lever and carefully bend back these thick metal pipes so they lined up, then get access to the turbo flange and loosen the clamp bolt to swivel the base of the clamp round to where it should have been (would have been easy with the engine out!!) then tighten it all up again and fit the oil pipe clamp. Anyway 90 minutes later and that was fixed too.

    The new (de-catted) downpipes were wriggled back in and the DP nuts were actually really easy - 3 from underneath and one each from the top.

    I bought Matt's yummy looking stainless system to fit but its missing a reducer so I trial fitted it to see where it will all go but in absence of that I got my £20 second hand system welded back together (was cut in half to get in a car!) and refitted that for this week and also it means I can see how everything is "stock" but de-pre-catted before I untroduce further changes.

    Massive thanks to Matt for his knowledge and skills - without him I would have prevaricated a lot with the manifolds and turbos and probably wouldnt have touched the actuators. At least now I KNOW that the manifolds are fine, the turbos are new, the actuators have been checked and everything that I can, has been inspected!

    Weird thing is, despite having hands that look like Mike Tyson's after 9 rounds of pummeling, I actually enjoyed it and now I know better ways of doing each stage, would do it again! (pref not on my car though..) I reckon it has taken about 20 hours total of my time plus 5 or so of Matt, though there were periods where I was prevaricating rather than just doing!!

    Will post how I get on with the test drive and how the new exhaust sounds / works when I get to that.

    ..now I just need to get my beach buggy engine reassembled and back in and I can relax for a few beers over summer maybe...?!

    Sorry for the long post, hope this is useful / interesting to someone!!

    Front bumper off, ready to dive in..
    [​IMG]

    Front clip almost ready to remove..
    [​IMG]

    Engine out, access to manifolds now possible!
    [​IMG]

    Matt gets stuck right in there!
    [​IMG]
    Exhausting - options...
    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]
    #22
  24. Matt82
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    Matt82 Active Member

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    [Jun 3, 2010]
    look at the arse on that.

    tbh it wasnt really that daunting at all, id tackle another one with you Nick. the crane is a must (obviously) but i think you could get away without a lift (just)

    im glad there is a sign that the rattle is gone, but the proof will be in the pudding tonight!!
    #23
  25. calvin
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    [Jun 4, 2010]
    Done the test drive - all works, minimal rattle under load (by which I mean trying to pull away in too high a gear at low revs for example) - there's still something there, but its not anything like it was, and this morning I remembered that I hadnt put the jubilee clips back onto the lower end of the heat sheilds (they need to go on last thing after the top heat sheild bolts are done up and all the DP nuts and Lambda sensors are back in and tight) - so thats bound to cause a bit of a rattle!! But its interesting that the rattle is less, even WITH rattley heatshields! So, it seems that the actuator arm was indeed the problem.

    The turbos seem to spool up a little quicker, so boost comes on slightly earlier than it did, but this is hard to determine as I drove the car like miss daisy for ages once I thought there was a manifold issue! So the de-catting hasnt had any adverse effect and hopefully adding the bigger bore stainless jobby will free a few more horses and flow.

    Luckily there's a private road near me (!) :sly: so I was able to do a few tests - after gently driving it the first mile (it had a good 20 minutes at idle to warm everything up) I gave it the beans and all felt good, right up to 130mph (or so I dreamed officer!). And 40-100 took a shade over 6 seconds even with 2 gearchanges - nice.

    So, my baby is back working and I am going to test it properly tonight and do a 120 mile trip to Gloucester - wish me luck and do what you can to ward off the Turbo Fairies!!

    Cheers Matt for your spannering and everyone else who advised / helped on getting the right bits and prep to make the job doable.

    And here's the proof - in the sunshine looking spangly (despite Apple's iphone's attempt at making everything fuzzy and ****!)

    [​IMG]
    #24
  26. Matt82
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    Matt82 Active Member

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    [Jun 4, 2010]
    fantastic. your feeling that the boost arrives earlier makes perfect sense due to the actuator being closed properly now, that near side blower will have all the exhaust gases blown over it properly rather than out the gate, hence more efficient spool!

    did you get onto the turbo refurb place to see what exactly was refurbed? the impellor felt fine (no odd movements) shame about the actuator but an improvement nonetheless.
    #25
  27. Matt82
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    Matt82 Active Member

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    [Jun 4, 2010]
    and some of those sienna spec bolts.

    he should get a refund on his torque wrench
    #26

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