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S3 S-tronic Gearboxes 6 speed - Wheres the Limit for the clutch pack?

Discussion in 'A3/S3/Sportback (8P Chassis)' started by mjr901, Feb 9, 2013.

  1. mjr901

    mjr901 Parts Manager - (Main Dealer)

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    I'm getting a mega itch for this DSG map + i.e more torque, which is the killer...

    My 2012 Stage 2 S-tronic S3 is currently outputting 295 f/lbs which I believe is approx - 400nm (337bhp)


    Basically, we all know the Manual version for the S3 is basically sat right on its limit out of the box and the

    S-tronic box is stronger, but by how much?

    Ideally i would like to remap the S-tronic box, but to the point way before the limit, i'd kinda like it to last a little

    bit!

    I have a feeling that once its mapped and the automatic torque limiter is basically removed, it'll behave just

    like the manual version, and slip before long?

    Where do they start to substantially wear out/slip? Bearing in mind I drive with a VERY heavy foot when i drive it :rockwoot:

    Has anyone witnessed or heard of these S-tronic clutch packs slip at all? with or without added maps etc

    Im yet to hear of one? Find it hard to believe actually?

    (Mechatronics failures I've heard of, but this isn't relevant in this case)
     
    #1 mjr901, Feb 9, 2013
    Last edited: Feb 9, 2013
  2. mjr901

    mjr901 Parts Manager - (Main Dealer)

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    According to JBS, that to reliably hold 420f/lbs (580nm ish) then this is the answer,

    VW AUDI SEAT SKODA DSG Upgrade Clutch Pack Stage 1: 6 Disc - JBS

    And F@*k me, thats alot of cash.

    Is torque easily adjusted? can the DSG box be simply programmed to lets say 380f/lbs? or are they tuned to the

    420 flb/s limit or just set to give full torque, and however long the clutch lasts from then is as long as a piece of string?
     
    #2 mjr901, Feb 9, 2013
    Last edited: Feb 10, 2013
  3. L1ARR

    L1ARR Active Member

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    Someone on the Golf R forum is running a big powered DSG car. His clutch does slip but the car is running 400+ bhp.

    HPA do an updated dsg box for £5k, it's a lot of money but another level. If you want big power and reliability you may have no choice due to the current limitations of the factory dsg unit.
     
    #3 L1ARR, Feb 10, 2013
    Last edited: Feb 10, 2013
  4. S3Alex

    S3Alex Rarely neutral

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    I'd agree with the 420lbs limit there,as I know a couple of guys on VAGOC have experienced similar.
    There are a couple of companies producing uprated clutch packs for the DSG,but HPA are by far the best for replies and help,and one chap I know tried for a considerable time to get a reply from the others before exporting his gearbox to Canada to get HPA to work on it.
     
  5. mjr901

    mjr901 Parts Manager - (Main Dealer)

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    thanks for the replies, any idea how much standard clutch packs cost for these cars? I've heard they're easier to fit than the manual version?

    id love to spend 5k on my gearbox......but I simply don't have that sorta cash lying around :( I'm 23 after all! maybe one day!

    So what uprated power would be reliably 'safe' for a standard DSG gearbox? I don't want to have it remapped so it sits on the limit of the current clutch pack, like the manuals basically do!

    Am I best to stick with my 400f/lbs and play it safe?
     
  6. S3Alex

    S3Alex Rarely neutral

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    I honestly dont know the price of a stock clutch pack,but any decent tuner can give you a price(not the dealers!),but a limit of 400lbs currently should be quite safe.
    The gearbox is no less robust than the manual,but the manual for whatever reason is saddled with a stock clutch made from chocolate,and it surely wouldn't have cost more to put a Sachs organic in there on the production line,but there it is.
     
  7. mjr901

    mjr901 Parts Manager - (Main Dealer)

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    hmmm, do you think the software on the gearbox can be changed so it doesn't kick down etc but keep the torque limiter the same?

    Im really after the full manual affect from the DSG where it doesn't change up or down on its own.

    Suppose Mikko at Shark maybe the best person to ask?

    Having gone through one clutch in my manual S3 by 20k, Im getting a bit nervous...current DSG is at 17k and I'm running more power now...
     
  8. S3Alex

    S3Alex Rarely neutral

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    By all means ask your tuner,but if they don't supply DSG software,I would ask Revo,AMDTuning and APR,all of whom do software for the DSG box.
     
  9. mjr901

    mjr901 Parts Manager - (Main Dealer)

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    Shark do your normal DSG Remap, but I'm unsure about a tweaked tamed version ....I can but only ask!

    You seemed to have a lot of success with AMD, I very almost went with them from day one, but as there a very good drive from

    Worcester I thought again.

    Although shark HQ isn't exactly close either! But N8 came to me!
     
  10. S3Alex

    S3Alex Rarely neutral

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    I can't fault them....they've been superb.
    As well as my car,they're busy with a trackday build for a guy I know who will have similar power and torque to mine,but running a DSG box with HPA internals,so they know what they're doing.
     
  11. Autograph Cars

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    We have plenty of cars running 500-600nm on the stock clutch packs, it's the delivery of the torque that's the killer. If the engine is mapped for a really aggressive boost delivery at 3000rpm then this puts a real strain on the clutch, but if it's mapped sensibly then they are fine. We do an upgrade clutch pack ( dsg clutch upgrade ) that will stand 750nm officially, but we currently have a customer running a MK1 TT 3.2 Turbo with these clutches in that is holding over 800nm on the Dyno!

    In our software we change the torque limiters and shift times but do not remove them all together, the target shift times can be pushed too low with some software and this causes a bit of slip because too much load is put on the clutch during shifting gear.

    Here's a review of some DSG software we just did for a customer...
    http://www.audi-sport.net/vb/volkswagen-other-vag/179361-autograph-cars-credit-where-’s-due.html
     
  12. S3Alex

    S3Alex Rarely neutral

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    I see that's the SSP clutch pack,and I know one guy who had immense problems with that before going to HPA instead,although in fairness,his engine spec was fairly extreme at 580bhp and I would think over 800Nm
     
  13. mjr901

    mjr901 Parts Manager - (Main Dealer)

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    Definitely feeling better about the DSG map....

    Is yours available to people who have been mapped through any tuner, "Shark" for example?

    Or is this a map that will need to have your own engine map to go with your DSG map?

    The power is pretty smooth with Shark. Heres my recent Dyno, your thoughts welcomed.

    [​IMG]
     
  14. Autograph Cars

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    Yea, we also had some issues with the early SSP clutches. We've worked really hard with them over last year or 2 and the new ones are great. The TT is running over 500BHP/800NM AT THE WHEELS!! and it holds with no slip whatsoever. The new clutches we have developed with them have an extra friction disc in there, and we have changed the cover plate in the basket to take up some of the free play, altogether seems to work perfect. We developed some special software specifically for these clutches to increase the oil pressure within the clutch basket under full load...
     
  15. S3Alex

    S3Alex Rarely neutral

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    That's obviously what made the difference then,and my mate was doing this build over a year ago,as was the other chap I know who's having his work done by HPA.
    .
    I think the problem for many of us is that the market in this sort of gear is both quite small,and also quite fluid in terms of updates and developments,and if you don't have your ear to the ground all the time,things can be overlooked.
    I'm thankful in some ways for having a manual 'box,although even that has been a learning curve.
     
  16. Autograph Cars

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    That's a nice graph, they've done a decent job of boost control by the look of it. We can make our gearbox software work with any engine software, just need to know the rpm limit of the engine ECU. At 400nm you won't have any problems, they could actually push the engine harder and give you more torque, it will be fine up to 500nm. We do our own engine software but not the sort to force people to have everything done by us... would be nice though ;-)

    We can do a full manual in any or all modes, best to leave it as an auto in D mode though but we can play with the shift up / down points in D to make it more interesting to drive.
     
  17. Autograph Cars

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    Yea tell me about it, we develop software for all sorts of custom applications and even doing it every day it's tough to keep up!
     
  18. mjr901

    mjr901 Parts Manager - (Main Dealer)

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    That sort of power....Im a LONG way off.....as are most people on this forum, and probably in the world! Surprised the chassis isnt a different shape after that much power.

    My plan is very simple really, i'd like to keep the original clutch/gearbox, purely because any upgrades in that respect is a lot of ££££££, and i dont have sort of disposable income at the moment.

    What are the costs of your DSG remap then? :)
     
    #18 mjr901, Feb 10, 2013
    Last edited: Feb 10, 2013
  19. S3Alex

    S3Alex Rarely neutral

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    Since the engine build on mine,there are new BT kits(although none hugely better),new turbos,even new fuel pump applications,and it just keeps coming,as one guy tries something,makes it work and so on.
    .
    As long as companies like yours,and all the others keep pushing,there's loads to be gained yet.
     
  20. Autograph Cars

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    Yea, very smooth power delivery, could be made more aggressive once the DSG software is done. Stage 2 DSG software is £495 inc vat for the newer stuff, I'll do it as a 'Forum Deal' for £450 for you. Because your car is so new I might not have seen the software version before so there's a chance I might not be able to do it on the day. File conversions for new SW versions take me a day or so to finish. Because they are really labour intensive and require a lot of concentration I generally do them at night when I have some peace!

    Where in Worcs are you? I'm down there quite a bit.
     
  21. Autograph Cars

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    That's for sure! We now have the TFSi running as a stand alone with the Stock ECU. We've removed the variable pressure tank pump from the equation, removed the tumbler flaps in the intake, removed the immo and vehicle coding info, and developed a host of files for different hardware. I'm in today because I'm building a TFSi engine for a Lotus Exige, target 400BHP+ on a hybrid turbo... but with higher than stock compression to make it responsive off boost. I'll let you guys know when it's done!
     
  22. S3Alex

    S3Alex Rarely neutral

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    Sounds good.....mine runs the USP auxiliary pump setup and has been very reliable,and kept the stock compression but with uprated pistons and rods for a solid 500bhp.
     
  23. mjr901

    mjr901 Parts Manager - (Main Dealer)

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    I'm right in the middle of Worcester and Malvern, 6 miles from both, right in the sticks where its quiet. :)

    I'd without a doubt be happy to have a remap from you for the DSG and I'd probably prefer to over anyone else, i get the sense of a more custom/refined outcome, however, like most, I'm on a budget, and I believe Shark offer a very similar outcome at roughly half the cost. So at the end of the day, as much as i'd like to follow my heart, I have to follow my wallet :(
     
  24. Autograph Cars

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    Fair enough, it's not the same as you would get from Shark though, we've been developing our own DSG software for years. £225 from Shark sounds too cheap?

    If we do it as part of an engine tune or another job then we subsidise it so it's cheaper, like wise if it's an older car then we no doubt have development files we have already done that we can base a new tune on. The best I can do for a new software version is £400 all in. No hard feelings if you don't use us though!!
     
  25. mjr901

    mjr901 Parts Manager - (Main Dealer)

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    I've been trying to search where i got that figure from Shark from in my head now across the forum, cant find it anywhere, maybe it was wishful thinking! Nothing like accidental bargaining!!

    When I have some spare cash, ill be in touch. As its a 2012 'new' car, do you simply 'read' the DSG ECU, take the information away with you and then develop it 'in house' and then come back and upload? or is it something you do whilst on the rollers, or live logging?

    Thankyou
     
  26. Autograph Cars

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    I need to read the ECU, but we have to plug direct to the gearbox on yours with a special lead because VW have locked them over the OBD plug. When I see the data I can look and see if I've seen that version before, we might be lucky! Otherwise yes, I'll sit and study it and develop a tuned version. Most likely I'll have seen something similar so would be able to turn it round same day if you come to us. Rollers are no good for this, it has to be done on the road so that it works properly for actually driving.
     
  27. mjr901

    mjr901 Parts Manager - (Main Dealer)

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    I'll be rustling funds asap, although it will not be immediate by any means.

    When i get it done, you'll be my first port of call. :)
     
  28. Autograph Cars

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    Nice one, and like the 'Accidental Bargaining' comment! Not had that one before...
     
  29. mjr901

    mjr901 Parts Manager - (Main Dealer)

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    Never done it before myself either!!! But may be onto something here!!

    All the best :friends:
     
  30. RedDejavu

    RedDejavu Well-Known Member

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    I would be interested too but you are located miles away:/
     
  31. nluk100

    nluk100 Active Member

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    I have used E-maps on a previous car as back then they were the only tumer I could find that would offer a standalone DSG map. IIRC they were cheaper than everyone else too and came to my home to do the map. Very close to mjr901 as well!

    E-Maps Home - Performance car ECU chip tuning and mobile engine remaps

    Bear in mind that they are unlikely to increase your torque. These days the engine map can manipulate the torque figure sent to the DSG ECU making it think it's getting less than it actually is, however your car seems low at 400Nm for a stage2. The main benefit of the DSG map is to increase the rev limit, faster shifts, better shift points and stgopping the car changing up/down in M.
     
  32. RedDejavu

    RedDejavu Well-Known Member

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    I noticed on mine torque figures are slightly low thats why I'm considering DSG map? What you reckon?

    [​IMG]
     
  33. mjr901

    mjr901 Parts Manager - (Main Dealer)

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    Yeah 100% we all need the DSG map to unleash full potential. At the moment all our modded DSG's are either being slightly fooled by the ECU or the torque limiter is doing its bit.

    Im just worried about doing it and then it wearing out too quickly for my liking.

    Ill do it once Ive got some spare cash :) only live once I guess!
     
  34. jimojameso

    jimojameso Active Member

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    I want a dsg map but there are no decent people down here who do dsg maps for newer cars. Only the pre 2009 cars :(
     
  35. RedDejavu

    RedDejavu Well-Known Member

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    true only wondering how is this going to work when ECU map and DSG map are both fiddling with the torque and from different tuners:confused:
     
  36. mjr901

    mjr901 Parts Manager - (Main Dealer)

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    God knows, I'll let the tuners worry about that :)
     
  37. nluk100

    nluk100 Active Member

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    That does seem a bit low. My car is running around 460Nm (340 lb/ft) on a stage 1 map.
     
  38. RedDejavu

    RedDejavu Well-Known Member

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    wow that what I was thinking to be close to 340-350lb/ft but certainly DSG is holding back the torque. Your is manual I presume?
     
  39. L1ARR

    L1ARR Active Member

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    Your correct, please bare in mind most tuners will invest money where they want to see the most return. The software on the later DSG cars changed which means more R&D costs. I have been looking I to this for ages and been on at Revo for 15 months, have even offered my car as a demo. They will be looking into this but not a a priority as they have been honest about tuning the TTRS / RS3.

    Not great for us but its swings and roundabouts I am afraid.
     
  40. L1ARR

    L1ARR Active Member

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    Nice to see an alternative tuner with this option, will keep my eyes on this. Please keep us involved on any DSG upgrades on later S3.
     

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