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Discussion in 'A3/S3/Sportback (8P Chassis)' started by nicks3, Oct 1, 2006.
Does anyone know if there will be a DSG option for the new S3?
Not at launch, and I suspect you'll be waiting a long time for it to be added as an option.
I've pretty much decided it is a prerequisite for me upgrading. Maybe if enough of us spam Audi with requests they will listen.
In This month's issue of Audi Driver magazine is a article where Paul Harris, the editor, drives the new S3. An intresting point towards end of the article is where he asks some of Audi's marketing team whether there would be an S-tronic(DSG) gearbox and a Sportback version. The answer was no on both accounts. They reckon that a manual gearbox is the best solution for a car with the character of the S3, but it may be that there is so much call on Audi's development engineer's that the package has been kept relatively simple.
Yeah I read that comment on Pistonheads.
I think this sends out the wrong message on two counts. Firstly, it should be an option for the driver to choose, not someone in Milton Keynes or Ingolstadt. Secondly, Audi have marketed this S-tronic box as the best semi-automatic there is, faster than a manual and the only one in a road car that operates like those in an F1 - and the motoring press have largely agreed. Now to say it "doesn't match the character of the S3" somewhat undermines either the gearbox or the S3.
I say if it is good enough for Michael Schumacher then it should be good enough for me
So Audi reckon DSG is pish for sporty driving as well then ?
Nice to see my own thoughts on DSG vindicated by Audi though.
Victory is mine !
For the record, DSG is nothing like F1 'boxes. Dual-clutches are banned in F1.
I'm afraid I have to agree with bowfer on the DSG. I couldn't understand what he was on about at first and was sure I'd want it in my next car, then I spent a couple of hours in one and just couldn't get on with it. Nice smooth changes when pressing on but far far too hesitant pulling away or when "stamping on it".
The basic problem is that, no matter how clever the gearbox is, it can't read your mind and has to react to your actions whereas with a manual you can pre-empt manouvres. This will never change.
Jeremy Clarkson mentions 'flappy paddle' gearchanges in one of his latest columns,were he gripes about technology.
Here are his musings;
"Just about the only foray into a mad (technological) world has been with the gearbox. We had Merc trying to prove seven speeds are better than five, and then wisely not bothering on the new SL. And just about everyone's played around with flappy paddles.
This is flatscreen technology with a clutch. It is the sandwich maker you were given for a wedding present and which you've never used. It looks good, and it sounds impressive when you first explain it to mates over the water cooler, but it's rubbish.
Maserati has just figured that out. They know that the idiot-box spoils the Quattroporte, so they're redesigning the car, ditching the transaxle layout so they can get a proper, tried and tested box in there."
Have any of you thought about the fact that it might not fit under the bonnet. If the config of the engine has changed to produce the 260 odd bhp, then maybe they can't actually fit the dsg box in. Look under the bonnet of a car with dsg then a car without, you'll see how much space dsg takes up
If that was the case (can't see how),Audi would surely have stated that.
They have stated that they decided it didn't suit the sort of driving an S3 offers.
Have you guys driven the DSG box? I was impressed until I came to go down a hill. The box kept shifting up a gear, which meant I had to keep changing up a gear after realising the reason I was speeding up was due to the DSG!
If DSG came to the S3 I think that it would need some engineering first, as I don't fancy hammering around a corner downhill with haldex and ESP working their heart out and then the DSG box deciding I want to change gear... Eeek!
10 minutes going down a hill pretty much decided for me that if I get an S3 (for the moment) it was not worth spending, what is it, around £1.5K? Just to speed up in corners down hill.
Don't get me wrong, I was impressed by the DSG box, but after the amusement of paddle shift wore off after an hours drive, involuntarily speeding up down a hill was the deciding factor...
I took a DSG 3.2 quattro out for a drive a few weeks back. Have to say that the DSG is slick technology. Not many hills out here, so can't comment on the "bobsleigh" tendancies. When I took it back the dealer asked me for my thoughts. I was impressed with the smooth DSG gearchange, but felt a little un-involved. Had to check to see if I still had a pulse in my left leg... DSG isn't for me......
I think the biggest problem with DSG lies when it's installed into turbo cars.
A driver doesn't have the option of increasing the revs/ slipping the clutch to get around turbo lag,so you end up with the dreaded and downright dangerous 'DSG delay'.
You put your foot down and feck all happens.
How's an S3 driver going to feel about that ?
How do I feel about that,in my lowly diesel ?
Bleedin frustrated as hell.
The auto change up at redline is also intensely annoying,but that could be sorted by a software change.
As someone stated above,an S3 driver (I would argue any driver) doesn't want the car to change itself up a gear halfway around a corner.
I'm pretty convinced they've decided that DSG and turbos simply don't mix in a sporty driving scenario.
The box has too many compromises.
I can only applaud them for having the guts to admit it,as that is very much to their credit.
Must be some hill to take you 10 minutes to get down it!
Whilst acknowledging your hatred of DSG, some thoughts about your comments.
If the car has turbo lag and the only way around it is to slip the clutch, then the problem doesn't lie with the DSG but with the engine. It's been designed to operate in a certain fashion but slipping the clutch isn't a normal operation is it?
Also, why would you want to fly around on the rev limiter? Are you an ex-Type-R driver? Surely the point of rev-limiters and the corresponding auto-change up is to protect the life expectancy of the engine.
Seems to me that if you need to perpetually keep slipping the clutch to get away quick and drive at the rev-limiter round corners then you need a faster car, not a manual gearbox which would allow you to abuse the one you've already got
True... but the manual does hilight this "feature" and suggests that if you want to use engine braking to knock it across into manual and control the gears yourself. There are quite a few hills in my neck of the woods, and once you're used to it there's no problem.
My biggest issue with DSG (at the moment) is that you never feel quite in control of the car when trying to park or pull out of junctions. I'll get used to it though I'm sure.
I *think* it's a packaging problem being the reason the S3 isn't fitted with DSG. Can you get DSG / Quattro on any of the A3's?
Hmmm. It's a bit hard to understand their reasoning there, given that the new tiTTy is available with DSG.
And that car would surely be perceived as being more 'sporty' than the S3, as well as actually being a better car in reality, if the reviews are to be believed.
When the A3 was originally launched, only the 3.2 and 2.0TDI were available with DSG. The 3.2 obviously doesn't suffer from the turbo-lag issue whilst I think it was offered in the diesel as, when accelerating hard, the rapid shifts do help alleviate a lot of the momentum lost when changing gear manually, which would presumably appeal to many.
I have to go for a diesel for tax reasons.
Should that mean I can't drive it to the max ?
I should just potter around should I ?
Bottom line is,DSG is severely flawed for anything above 7/10 driving.
Audi evidently agree.
They expect the S3 to be driven hard and admit DSG is not suited to that.
Ok then, in order to give some credence to your comments, i've just been out for a minor hoon to see if i can replicate your complaints.
Whether or not it's just my car or more probably my driving style, i can't see of there being an occasion where you would be driving at 10/10ths and be on the rev limiter when cornering.
The ethos of the TDi engine is not so much the max power 4K RPM but the torque which is slap bang in the middle of the rev range. If you're cornering and at revs which mean the DSG decides it's best to upchange (at the limiter), you're seriously overdriving the car and not getting the best out of the engine, nevermind the 'box itself.
I wasn't talking about you pottering round, just that it seemed as though you were trying to get the car to change to your driving style as opposed to you changing to the cars in order to get the best out of it. This is what i meant by the Type-R crack.
I've read multiple postings from yourself and your inherent hatred or the DSG - fair enough says i - but to suggest it's inherently flawed seems to be a bit of a "flat world" attitude.
With respect to the S3, i daresay we'll never know why Audi have decided at this juncture in time (although they may change their attitude) not to offer the DSG on it. Perhaps they feel it DOES warrant only a manual box (which would go against their marketing of the DSG as an option - a visit to the Audi website claims the box was "initially pioneered for motorsport" - not exactly against the S car ethos is it?
Whether it's a packaging consideration - with the S3 already packing quattro it's going to be a heavy old thing isn't it? - who can tell.
But in your comment that DSG don't go with Turbo, you only have to look at the cars which are equipped with both to see that isn't the case.
A3 2.0 TDI - 140 and 170 BHP and Golf TDI
A3 2.0 TFSI
Golf GT TSI 170 BHP
I'm afraid i think that the last example puts the nail in the coffin of your claims.
Nail in the coffin of my claims ?
So DSG delay and the auto change-up are figments of my imagination ?
Look through the past threads on this forum.
I think you'll find there are plenty who agree with me,especially about the downright dangerous DSG delay (copyright,me)
I'll also give you an example of when 10/10ths driving and the auto change-up bugs the **** out of me.
It's an example I've cited before.
I will be thrashing over a country road,with short straights between corners.
These short straights will not require a gearchange.
The same gear will do me fine,from accelerating zone to braking zone.
Ooooh nooo though,not with DSG....
DSG will decide it wants to change up just as I'm going to brake.
That a good enough scenario for you ?
We'll never know why Audi aren't fitting it to the S3 ?
They've told us why not !
They feel it doesn't fit in with the sort of driving an S3 offers.
What type of driving is that then ?
I would suggest sporty driving,where the driver wants to be in full control.
Not pseudo sporty driving,within a strictly computer-controlled rev range.
It's as close as you'll get to Audi admitting DSG is flawed for sporty driving,so I cannot possibly see why you can argue with it,as you're arguing against Audi themselves.
Like I said before,hats off to whoever decided driving was more important than marketing though.
my thoughts are two
cost and what it does to the car.
cost, imagine the list-price without any toppings of an S3 if it came with DSG would be close to £29K
also I reckon they didn't dare fit DSG for the lack of control you get, in a car that is supposed to be all about Driving.
I've had a SMG BMW and that was down right dangerous in any kind of commited Driving in auto, stick it in manual and magic, the problems go away
just the same as the DSG except not when I tried a 2.0T in manual the DSG nanny still kicked in and changed up dropping power when you try to hold a high rev low gear,
i.e. when Driving the car not just driving fast...
there's a big difference and AUDI recognise this it seems, isn't that why the Rs4 is a manual?
I was addressing your claims that "I'm pretty convinced they've decided that DSG and turbos simply don't mix in a sporty driving scenario." - perhaps i should have said "comment".
I've never said you're making these "problems" up. What i did say was that you are trying to adapt the car to your driving and not the other way around. If your previous car had been a big capacity N/A engine and your new one a turbo with lag, you'd adapt to that and not expect it to respond in the same manner. I can't see why you don't adopt the same attitude to the DSG box.
And good enough scenario for me? Well, your example above offers nothing as evidence on your comments earlier about mid corner changes - you're now talking about auto-change up prior to the corner.
I fail to see how "DSG delay" has any relevance to this thread on why the S3 hasn't been fitted with DSG. I suppose you could comment that this is not in the "sporty nature" or "instant response" of the car but how does this then sit with the turbo lag that journalists and testers have reported?
IMHO, there are numerous factors which would dictate why it isn't offered. VW feel that it is "sporty" enough to be offered on the top 2 variants of the Golf. Audi felt it was "sporty" enough to be offered on the previous range topper. But i'm wasting my time offering a reasonable opinion here when you (by your own admission) hate the gearbox and seemingly (in my opinion) can't see any merit in it.
Ah the good old DSG verses manual debate still rages on...
The last time I read a post like this people where discussing the merits of colours of cars
They don't have a version of DSG for the longitudinal engines, the RS4 would have to have the box out of the RS6 if you wanted an auto.
As I have said many times before Bowfer - You bought the wrong car and you should accept the fact. I bought exactly the right car. The DSG suits me and the way I drive to a tee. I am more than happy that it auto changes when it does. I never drive with the car a maximum revs. It just not the best way to use a diesel engine. I have adapted the way I drive to suit the car that I bought having tried it first and decided it was just what I wanted.
In your case you did not try it first and you are driving a diesel car with an automatic gearbox just the same as you would drive a petrol engined car with a manual gearbox. If you want to drive in that way and at 10/10ths all the time, that's your choice, but you made a big mistake in your choice of car.
Personally I think the main reason that Audi are not making the DSG available for the S3 is that they do not think it is good use of their engineers time for a car that will be produced is such small numbers compared with other A3s. If it is so unsuitable for 'sports' type cars why do they make it available on models in the TT range. Other models in the RS range are different. There is not a version of the DSG yet available for a 'longitudinal' mounted engine.
Audi make the A3 available to customers in both Petrol, turbo and non-turbo, and turbo Diesel versions and with both DSG on some models, ordinary automatic on some models amd manual gearboxes on all models. Its just a matter of making the correct choice to suit your requirements and the way you want to drive. If you make the wrong choice that is hardly Audi's fault.
Evidently DSG doesn't work correctly in Black cars...........
I don't get it - Bowfer's is silver....
I'll get my coat (and overly tinted glasses......)
DSG works correctly in any colour car. It just does not work how Bowfer wants it to!
Or how Audi themselves perceive S3 drivers would want it to.
Ooh,their decision must be twisting your chalfonts David.. ;-)
As I shall never be interested in an S3 it has no effect on me whatsoever. A 170 TDI with a DSG perhaps, but certainly not an S3.
I would say their decision undermines DSG across the range.
I now have no faith in my car and will discard it by the side of the road.
You, sir, are a riot.
I don't know whether or not to fear you or laugh at you. At least i'll hear you, coming round the bend at either 4000rpm or 2000rpm depending on what the DSG is doing.
All the money you saved on tax by running a diesel is being peed away by running your car at 4K - you do know that don't you?
I've got to ask a question which i'm sure has been asked many times before but i can't be bothered searching for - did you actually drive either a diesel A3 or one equipped with a DSG box BEFORE getting your car?????
Only if you assume that everyone who buys a DSG equipped A3 or TT wants to drive it in the same way as you.
Lenaldo - no Bowfer DID NOT drive a DSG equipped car BEFORE he decided to ask his boss for one. I think that's the whole problem. A few minutes driving with a DSG in his normal way would have shown him that the DSG will upshift automatically at max revs. Since then he has been trying to convince everyone that the DSG is flawed and Audi / VW were wrong to design the DSG in the way that they have and the mistake was someone elses not his. I don't think, or at least I hope, he will not make the same mistake again.
I think you hit the nail firmly on the head. Reading the review in Audi driver of the S3 (which is a good and concise read), they quote that just 4,453 S3's were sold in Britian.
Given my drive in a DSG, I would not have shelled out the money, so that's 4,452 with the potential for DSG in an S3. Assuming the numbers are correct and noting the comments here, I can't imagine their engineers spending the time mating the box to the engine for less than half of the S3 prospective owners, given the list price too.
Seems Audi made the wise choice and a "precise short shift gearbox" (Audi driver cmment) is what my current S3 has needed all along, I get fed up of having to be 'nice' when I seriously welly the car by gently helping it into second gear all the time. I have been in a few S3's and they all seem to have the same quirk.
So lets hope the engineers time was wisely spend and I can get to welly it as much as possible. Rozzers permitting that is!
Again David,Audi seem to agree with me (in the case of the S3 anyway).
Again,I don't agree with the test drive theory either.
I'm not in the habit of ragging the arse off a test car,so the redline change wouldn't have shown up.
The error lies with Audi.
They should not call manual mode,manual mode.
Perhaps I should have pursued a refusal of the car,under a misdeclaration of goods ?
If I am to reverse your argument around,you continually try to tell us that DSG is wonderful because you like it,despite loads of people agreeing that it has foibles.
bowfer.... which planet do you live on ? How can you say Audi agree with you in the case of the S3 and DSG?
I think perhaps all gearboxes have 'foibles' of one sort or another. It's a matter of whether you are able or willing to adapt to them or not. All my previous 1.8T A3s with manual gearboxes had their 'foibles'. Mostly a very poor change from first to second, the reluctance to engage first at all sometimes and the same with reverse. The poor quality of the Audi manual gearchange was one of the main reasons I want to try the DSG in the first place.
But just because Audi will not spend the time developing a suitable setup for a DSG in a niche market S3 does not mean they thing there is a problem with the DSG per sa. They offer it on the new TT. I'm sure that if they thought there was a problem they would not continue to offer it as an option on the latest release.
Most people are quite happy to drive a test car to it's maximum, that's what it's there for. When I test drove a 170 TDI last weekend the sales guy said take it out and give it some whelley - and it had only done 8 miles! With a TDI it's quite possible to tell that the DSG is going to auto shift-up in the first few hundred yards. 1st gear hits maximum revs very quickly. Put the lever in tip-tronic, pull away and before you know it the DSG changes into second and shortly after that it changes into third.
I am not a fan on these DSG flappy paddle SMG whatever you want to call them gearboxes.
To me they are just something else to go wrong, require more software updates than windows (if your a BMW owner) , they are dim witted , jerky and detract from the driving experience. I prefer to be in full control and I am not to lazy to move a gearstick and use a clutch.
Why anyone would want one on an S3 or any other performance car including a Ferrari is beyond me. I want to be as involved as I can and make the car do what I want it to do when I want it to do it..
Look what a sorry and stupid spectacle this kind of Technolgy has made F1 .
How these guys have the audacity to call themselves racing drivers is beyond me when they are nothing more than passengers in a techfest.
Ban flappy paddles thats what I say