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Running Issues at Cold

Discussion in 'A4/A4 cabriolet/S4 forum(B6 chassis)' started by Funkyfin2000, Feb 22, 2011.

  1. a8 tech back
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    a8 tech back Member

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    [Dec 30, 2011]
    Ok here is mine from cold see mvb 13 injectors are spot on and remember my car is spot on

    Pd cold start - YouTube
  2. Funkyfin2000
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    Funkyfin2000 Member

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    [Dec 30, 2011]
    Remember a number of those vids are a year old when i got the car, and a good service and new plugs made it much better!

    Just got a vid from cold logging MVB13......A8 Tech! Where you based! I need to come and see you LOL!!! :) I probably passed down near you yesterday to Stafford from Stranrear!

    Video Just uploading...be ready in about 1hr... :

    MVB 13 on VAG COM on a dodgy Starting Audi A4 1.9TDI AVF Engine Code - YouTube

    I did have the camshaft checked when the new injector loom was put on, but will ask the mechanic to check it all again maybe....it doesn't take much to check it does it from above? In fact will he be able to check it when the new tandem pump is fitted easily?
  3. a8 tech back
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    a8 tech back Member

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    [Dec 30, 2011]
    Ok swap injector number 2 for number 4 and run the mvb 13 test again (now see if number 4 follows the same readings and if number 2 improves)

    Whilst your workshop is swapping it get them to check the cam lobes and injector adjustment

    Id say your tandem pump is fine you have a fault on cylinder 2 for sure
    Last edited: Dec 30, 2011
  4. Funkyfin2000
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    Funkyfin2000 Member

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    [Dec 30, 2011]
    interesting stuff, I can't change the injectors my self sadly......it would be expensive for my mechanic to do it just to try out too!

    Fancy some beer money?? :D

    Yeah I have a feeling tandem pump isn't going to make any difference!

    Any thing else you want to see a log of to verify the cylinder 2 issue? Can film on VAG com again for you?
  5. Funkyfin2000
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    Funkyfin2000 Member

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    [Dec 30, 2011]
    and again, can he check cam lobes and injector adjustment went doing the tandem pump? IE does the rocker cover etc have to come off to do the tandem pump?
  6. a8 tech back
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    a8 tech back Member

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    [Dec 30, 2011]
    You don't need to remove the rocker cover for the tandem pump but its no bother for him to do it and as long as the old rubber gasket is ok he can re use it

    My rates are higher than indi workshops
  7. Funkyfin2000
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    Funkyfin2000 Member

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    [Dec 30, 2011]
    OK will get him to check on Tuesday again for me given your information, as it might point out something wrong on cyliner no.2 as you suggest.

    Anything else on VAG Com you want to see?

    Rich
  8. a8 tech back
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    a8 tech back Member

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    [Dec 30, 2011]
    No more info needed till the injectors are swapped as this seems to isolate the fault
  9. espen22
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    espen22 New Member

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    [Jan 2, 2012]
    I am hopfully doing my seals this week, christmas has dealyed all mail so i havent got the parts yet.
    Can say that i did something you shouldnt, i torqued the hold downs a little extra, and it sure did a difference in my starting problems.

    But as stated earlier, my problem is leaking seals according to the odd pressure readings, other problems may not be the seals, and no one should re torque those hold downs as it might lead to a huge engine repair. (my car is now parked and wont be runned until seals and new bolts are fitted)
  10. Funkyfin2000
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    Funkyfin2000 Member

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    [Jan 3, 2012]
    Well peeps.....all is done....full service.....

    fuel filter black but of course just as usual....

    Tandem pump replaced......

    Camshaft and lobes fully checked and absolutly no wear or signs on it at all, as suspected.

    Injector 2 was also checked and adjusted, but Dave the Mechanic said, there was nothing to adjust, all seemed fine.

    Car ran well home, smooth etc but will have to check when it's cold in the morning to see if the issue is resolved. All started fine after work no trouble.

    Update tomorrow, if not, it's an injector clean/check job and replace the seals I guess!

    Cheers all.

    Rich
  11. Funkyfin2000
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    Funkyfin2000 Member

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    [Jan 3, 2012]
    PS - i got pics of the camshaft and lobes etc so will post up in the next few days. But they were all fine.
  12. a8 tech back
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    a8 tech back Member

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    [Jan 3, 2012]
    great news if there is no mechanical wear
  13. Funkyfin2000
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    Funkyfin2000 Member

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    [Jan 4, 2012]
    Here are the cam pics:

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
  14. Funkyfin2000
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    Funkyfin2000 Member

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    [Jan 4, 2012]
    We also returned the values in adapation 01 and 03 back to standard.

    Started the car this morning, idle was a little irratic, but quickly sorted itself and i couldn't tell there was much smoke at all (hardly any but it was quite windy)

    Will keep checking and film MVB13 again in the next few days!
  15. Funkyfin2000
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    Funkyfin2000 Member

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    [Jan 5, 2012]
    Well it looks like we have no change, this morning rough start for about 5-10secs and smoke......so back to square one! Has to be injectors now I think!
  16. haytch75
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    haytch75 Member

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    [Jan 5, 2012]
    Just caught this thread mate. I have exactly the same smokey starts but cant say the idle is rough......I stuck a quadrouple dose of millers additive into a full tank of Shell V-Power and then took it for an Italian tune up.......around 45 minutes of driving everywhere between 3000-4000rpm. Not really how I'm used to driving and got me some funny looks and masturbator gestures...... but the next morning there was no smoke.......so I reckon my injectors need ultrasonic cleaning. I've no idea how much this would cost but it's sure to be more than I've got right now. Are you planning to get yours done?
  17. stu_m
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    stu_m Well-Known Member VCDS Map User

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    [Jan 5, 2012]
    What sort of ultrasonic cleaner do they use to clean injector's?

    My uncle does ultrasonic cleaning and vapour blasting as his business I'm sure he would do them for a reasonable price if he can do them
  18. haytch75
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    haytch75 Member

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    [Jan 5, 2012]
    I'm not that well up on them to be honest. I think they're some sort of ultrasonic water bath. My problem would be finding someone that could remove, clean and refit them properly for me......not decided yet.
  19. ian-r
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    ian-r New Member

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    [Jan 6, 2012]
    I have a similar problem with my '51 A4 TDI 130 - had itever since i bought it around a year and a half ago and always been the same. Ihave been in the motor trade for around 8 years before I left and had lots oftraining with these new diesel systems so thought I would be able to find thecause of the problem.... mistake.

    The car runs really well however in the morning for 5 - 10seconds when cold (will not do it for the rest of the day) it will rattle andsmoke the clear itself and run well. The only other issue is sometimes when itswarm it will kind of wobble on idle, almost feels like a slight mis fire butthe engine runs well when it does it and there is no smoke.

    It has already had a new DMF around 10k miles ago with aclutch so I have ruled this out. I have also had the EGR valve out and inletmanifold off, very sooty and blocked up so this was cleaned but made nodifference. I have now blocked the EGR valve off to get rid of EGR and I dothink it runs / performs better.

    Like you, I replaced fuel filter, did a full service butstill no cure. Had the injector wiring loom off and did a drop test on it tocheck for broken wires / high resistance but it was fine. Cam lobes and top endlooks really good and tested the glow plugs and they are ok.
    So in all - I have lost interest and will not throw £100'son it just guessing and hoping it will cure this minor issue. I never thinkabout it now and just accept after reading countless posts on here aboutsimilar problems it’s a characteristic of the PD engine, never get problemswhen driving and it out performs a lot of new TDI cars so I’m still reallyhappy with it.

    What I think the problem really is... Injectors withoutquestion. Been on many training courses in the past and they always hammer onabout how important the spray pattern is. Basically (and I hope I’m not teaching you to suck eggs) and injector has a spray pattern when it injects,not just one squirt of fuel. This atomises the fuel so it creates a better burnand on a test rig when tested you can often see a faulty injector when it’sblocked and alters the spray pattern. It will still make the cylinder fire butnot as well / i.e. causing a slight mis and or smoke where the fuel hasn’tburned correctly. On a petrol injector you could test them on a piece of paper(it was a rough but proud way but did them job) however these PD engines run atsuch high pressure it’s not worth the risk.

    If I was going to spend any more money on it I would besending the injectors off for testing and then cleaning - it’s worth testingthem first in case a solenoid isn’t working correctly inside one then it’spointless cleaning it as you will need to replace it.
    Sorry for the massive boring post - just trying to share myviews and that I really don’t think it’s worth throwing money at and worrying about.
  20. Funkyfin2000
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    Funkyfin2000 Member

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    [Jan 6, 2012]
    Hi guys,

    I think you are right, it all points towards the injectors...

    I have the power to do the injectors, my garage can take them out, down the road is a tester, and they can provide replacement ones same day.....

    but you are looking at injectors out and back in.... about 2.5 hrs labour - £150 or so
    New set of injector seals - £75
    Bolts about £25

    New Injector is £350 from said place....

    or £30 to test each one (£120 total if none need replacing)

    Could get pricey.... VERY pricey.

    My only concern is damage to the engine but people don't seem to have any issues with this, so I will probably just leave until it gets worse and I spend the cash.

    It looks like I need suspension parts doing soon and they won't be cheap on this car.....and possibly a clutch and flywheel....so need to save money for that at present.

    ESPEN22 is the next person to turn too as he is replacing injector seals shortly....we need to see what improvement he sees after that work has been done!

    Rich
  21. haytch75
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    haytch75 Member

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    [Jan 6, 2012]
    Ouch! Well with 6 cyclinders my bill will be even bigger so I think i'll live with it. The car's running fine other than an embarrassing puff of smoke from a cold start. I'll save my money for if/when a more urgent problem occurs.
  22. marktdisport
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    marktdisport Active Member

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    [Jan 6, 2012]
    mine was lumpy idle when i brought it, but used forte diesel injector cleaner and some good fuel and now its sweet no jumpy idle now.... seems you do have a injector issue though
  23. Funkyfin2000
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    Funkyfin2000 Member

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    [Jan 6, 2012]
    Yeah used forte and millers and some other stuff recommended but made little difference, but may try like a hard dose of it and some decent fuel but sounds like injectors now like you say!
  24. stu_m
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    stu_m Well-Known Member VCDS Map User

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    [Jan 6, 2012]
    Do I remember you saying your car uses a bit of oil?

    Just wondering if the puff of smoke could be valve stem oil seals leaking a tad or even oil in the intake system if its getting by somewhere like the turbo or something

    Just a thought
  25. Funkyfin2000
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    Funkyfin2000 Member

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    [Jan 6, 2012]
    yeah, chucks out quite a lot of smoke (blue as well) but not otherwise.

    Oil wise think it drinks about a normal amount...we all have to top up PD's every 3-4 months or so i think!?

    Can valve stem oil seals be checked when injectors come out?
  26. quattro tony
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    quattro tony Member

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    [Jan 6, 2012]
    Hi rich, you know when you said dave has checked and adjusted no 2 injector,did he check all the injectors? and do you know what exactly he has adjusted? The pd injectors have 2 manual adjustement points that i am aware of, top of the injector where the nut is, and the distance from the edge of the cylinder head to the injector body, these injectors need to be set very precisely in order for them to function 100% correctly. Ive known them to be set incorrectly and make them run not right. As ive mentioned b4 injector seals have been known to leak and cause all sorts of probs, inc leaking engine oil into the fuel system and it would cause a **** start and running and blue smoke as its fed into the engine by the injectors,Ive also come across the later 2.0l pd have a black fuel filter due to tandem pump problems.Shame the tandem pump hasnt solved the problem as its quite pricey.
  27. stu_m
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    stu_m Well-Known Member VCDS Map User

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    [Jan 6, 2012]

    I have just topped mine up with less then half a litre for the first time in 8k I also have over 200k on the clock too

    Yes it is normal for a top up

    Does sound to me like its burning a bit of oil on start up which could be value stem oil seals

    Not sure if its a head off job to do them to be honest
  28. espen22
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    espen22 New Member

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    [Jan 7, 2012]
    Leaking oil seals will make it smoke when running, there is no way oil will be down in cylinders on cold starts because of this if youre only using half a litre on 8k
    If the oil seals are gone then your valve guides are worn out to, i have not heard of this happening on a 1.9tdi pd, they run 4-500k without any issues.
    Its a wery strong engine, you can pull 200+ hp out of it with turbo/ecu mods, so its wery unlikely that it wears out on stock driving (only the cam and followers that dies on it if you run bad oil)
    Turbo holds for at least 2-300k, but they tend to clog up, this will trow a fault code on low or high boost, and you will get the engine lamp up if so.
  29. espen22
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    espen22 New Member

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    [Jan 7, 2012]
    Valve steam seals can only be checked if you pull the valve sprigs off, and its 2 ways to do that, Head off or a special tool that is tricky to use for many people. Cam must go out anyway, and timingbelt must be changed so its a large job...
    just fortget them they are not your problem.

    I am doing mine this week, and i will post you the results, i am pretty sure mine will be 100% after changing the injector seals and alligning the injectors up to oem specs.
  30. stu_m
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    stu_m Well-Known Member VCDS Map User

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    [Jan 7, 2012]
    Think you might need to re read its not me have starting trouble I put that I'm using half a litre in 8k for the op to compare it too as he could be putting in half a litre every 1k for all we know!

    Valve stem oil seals can puff a little on start up and stop seconds later I've had it before on a car changed them and it was fine after that!
  31. Funkyfin2000
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    Funkyfin2000 Member

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    [Jan 7, 2012]
    Thanks guys, I doubt it valve stem seals.

    Could it be a dribbly injector???
  32. pauldazzle
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    pauldazzle Active Member

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    [Jan 8, 2012]
    I had exactly the same problem on a Mondeo ST TDCI, & it turned out to be leaking injector seals.
  33. quattro tony
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    quattro tony Member

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    [Jan 8, 2012]
    Any thoughts on what i mentioned rich?
  34. Funkyfin2000
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    Funkyfin2000 Member

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    [Jan 8, 2012]
    Hi Tony,

    Sorry yes my apologies...

    Dave @ BVR just adjusted the top nut on injector 2 only. He said the others will be fine and injector 2 was perfect anyway, no adjustment was needed.

    The other bit that can be adjusted also didn't need doing.

    Yah it's probaly the seals.

    Once you take the injector out can you see if the seals have gone?
  35. stu_m
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    stu_m Well-Known Member VCDS Map User

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    [Jan 8, 2012]
    not unless they are split

    when i had a leak on my injector seals once removed they all looked fine
  36. quattro tony
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    quattro tony Member

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    [Jan 9, 2012]
    Hi rich, that makes more sense, as long as hes checked all the injector measurements and they are all with limits,thats fine. I would be looking at the injector seals next , lot cheaper then a new set of injectors, As u say u don't notice an improvement when fuel treatment is used,so I would imgaine ur injectors are not blocked, My other audi has done over 211,000 miles with the same injectors when new and still runs well, but lumpy when first start when v cold but nothing like urs rich. Btw has dave ever done a compression test on your engine?
  37. Greeny233
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    Greeny233 Active Member

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    [Jan 10, 2012]
    well believe it or not like i had posted previously i had exactly the same problem when starting from cold (only below 6 or 7 degrees) but i changed my top boost hose (the 90 degree elbow which fits into the inlet chamber) the other day as i'd noticed it wasn't fitting properly and was leaking some oil and afterwards i gave the engine a dam good degreasing and a jet wash, all the turbo hoses on the left hand side of the engine as you look from the front were covered in old oil and **** as were a couple of electrical plugs, after jet washing gave all the electrical connections a good spray with contact spay. When i drove the car afterwards it felt sooooo much smoother and pulled a little better and the next morning with 4 degrees showing on the dash the car started perfectly and without any smoke and it has been fine for the last 3 days. Not much help i know but possibly worth looking at the electrical connections and maybe cleaning them up a little.
  38. espen22
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    espen22 New Member

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    [Jan 10, 2012]
    You can measure them, they get smaller on the opposite side of where the clamp holding them down are seated.
  39. espen22
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    espen22 New Member

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    [Jan 10, 2012]
    Well all injectors are pulled, and as i suspected the seals were worn out, hard and also the lowest seals had small damages.
    On the worst cylinder in vag com, the lower seal was broken.

    Will post up when reassembled.
  40. espen22
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    espen22 New Member

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    [Jan 10, 2012]
    And what car was that ??

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