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Running Issues at Cold

Discussion in 'A4/A4 cabriolet/S4 forum(B6 chassis)' started by Funkyfin2000, Feb 22, 2011.

  1. espen22
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    espen22 New Member

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    [Dec 13, 2011]
    Yes, changing the tandem is a good idea if youre keeping the car.

    But since this is 2 independent jobs, i would go for the tandem first(since you ordered it), and then the seals if it dont solves your problem.
    The tricky part of injectors are like stu said, getting them out.
    But also lining them up correctly again is very important.
    This is a good description on injector seal change : http://eva2.homeip.net/Bentley99-05...lectrical/23 Fuel Injection-Diesel (1.9L).pdf
    #81
  2. Funkyfin2000
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    Funkyfin2000 Member

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    [Dec 14, 2011]
    Tandem on its way to me, will be changed on 4th Jan.

    The Injector Kit is this apparantly:

    Injector seals: They come as a set of gaskets for each injector. 038 198 051C @ £22.44 a set, so £22.44 x4. Its more than just a seal, have a look at the attached jpg, all the arrowed parts are what you get in one kit.

    But you say Rocker Bolts need doing too?

    Rich
    #82
  3. stu_m
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    stu_m Active Member VCDS Map User

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    [Dec 14, 2011]
    Yes but they are cheaper if you buy them from a bosch supplier like I say I got all mine for around 30 quid

    Yes rocker bolts are stretch bolts and need angle tightening up
    #83
  4. Funkyfin2000
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    Funkyfin2000 Member

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    [Dec 14, 2011]
    Any online bosch suppliers any body?
    #84
  5. stu_m
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    stu_m Active Member VCDS Map User

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    [Dec 14, 2011]
    http://www.andrewpage.com/

    This who I used see if they have a branch near you if not I will happily help you out and pick a set up and post them
    #85
  6. Funkyfin2000
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    Funkyfin2000 Member

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    [Dec 15, 2011]
    Cheers dude, making a few enquiries plus might be the new year.

    What other parts apart from new rocker bolts need changing at the same time? I heard there is another set of bolts that should be changed too?

    Anyone got a run down?

    Cheers

    Rich
    #86
  7. stu_m
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    stu_m Active Member VCDS Map User

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    [Dec 15, 2011]
    If I get chance later I will have a look in my haynes manual and see what's what
    #87
  8. Funkyfin2000
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    Funkyfin2000 Member

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    [Dec 15, 2011]
    Thanks Stu thats good of you!! :)

    I think there are 3 sets of different bolts that need replacing....

    It's something that I will look to do if the Tandem doesn't fix it.

    Tandem is arriving on Wednesday, £250 delivered, genuine Audi from Germany! What a great price. My mechanic quoted (with discount) £360!
    #88
  9. espen22
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    espen22 New Member

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    [Dec 15, 2011]
    Injector seal replacement parts :

    Seal kits # 4
    injector hold down bolts # 4
    Rocker arm bolts # 8

    Its all here, in this link... its the procedure to do it too. http://eva2.homeip.net/Bentley99-05/...%281.9L%29.pdf

    I know ive seen a good write up on tdi club, will find it and post the link
    #89
  10. stu_m
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    stu_m Active Member VCDS Map User

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    [Dec 15, 2011]
    just had a quick read of my haynes and its the rocker bolts and the injector clamp bolts that need replacing if you remove them

    if you are going to carry out this job then i would buy a manual as there is a set up procedure and the injectors have to be lined up right too

    Stu
    #90
  11. Funkyfin2000
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    Funkyfin2000 Member

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    [Dec 15, 2011]
    Cheers Espen, Cheers Stu,

    Will get a quote off germancarparts for those bolts too.

    Not sure if need to do it yet.

    I was hoping to get the injectors checked and ultrasonic cleaned but I can't find anyone local to my garage who could do it same day :( Doh! Only have 1 car and we need it most days.
    So sending them away to be done isn't an option unless I did it all on my drive but I don't have the knowledge

    Stu - Don't want beer money to do mine on my drive :) Or Espen pay your flights :)

    Any way could all be in vain as the tandem pump might fix it.

    Espen when are you doing your seals?

    Cheers

    Rich
    #91
  12. stu_m
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    stu_m Active Member VCDS Map User

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    [Dec 15, 2011]
    it would be cheaper to take it to Audi then pay my fuel and beer money lol

    to be honest i really cant see it been the seals as you would have diesel either in the pots or leaking in to the oil it can only go one way or the other

    i did mine as i had diesel in the oil but i wasnt getting any starting trouble!!
    #92
  13. Funkyfin2000
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    Funkyfin2000 Member

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    [Dec 15, 2011]
    The only other thing I notice is I seem to be using a fair amount of oil....and it seems to be blue smoke that gets chucked out not white!

    You not based near the midlands then!
    #93
  14. stu_m
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    stu_m Active Member VCDS Map User

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    [Dec 15, 2011]
    is this smoke all the time? or just on start up ?

    im in hull, yorkshire
    #94
  15. Funkyfin2000
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    Funkyfin2000 Member

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    [Dec 16, 2011]
    just start up! Will get a video up oevr the weekend for you all so you can see.......

    It can also easily stall if you leave off to quickly....

    The only other thing I get is, sometimes lifting off in 4th gear at about 50-60 you feel a little blip (almost like a slight misfire) its not massive but its like the car has a small hiccup is the best way to describe it. Doesn't happen constantly but every now and again. Nothing on Vag Com ever.

    Cheers for the info about what parts.
    #95
  16. Funkyfin2000
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    Funkyfin2000 Member

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    [Dec 17, 2011]
    Ive also tracked down the best price now for the seals and bolts. About £90 all in from my mechanic plus £115 labour.

    Ive also found a place down the road that can ultrasonically clean and test all the injectors (waiting on a price) on the same day....so that works perfectly if I have to get this done.

    What I don't understand is WHY all this gets worse in the colder weather???? Surely if it was an air leak or pressure leak, fuel is thicker in colder weather? So any leaks would be less conspicious in effect? There has to be a clue why its worse in colder weather surely!?

    The place that cleans and test the injectors as well, has the best price for replacements - £285 plus vat for genuine Bosch.

    Tandem pump next on the 3rd Jan! Lets see how we go! Will try and get a video today for you all.

    In fact I have some old videos taken last year:

    New Video of Idling issue with Avant A4 - YouTube

    Audi Engine Misfire and Alternator Pulley Issue - YouTube

    This one shows smoke quite well:

    Now Fitted Pulley/Engine Mount and New Fuel Filter - YouTube
    #96
  17. Funkyfin2000
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    Funkyfin2000 Member

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    [Dec 17, 2011]
    And the latest video....the smoke doesn't look to bad but it was windy so it just blew away really...

    the engine really rocks as well as you might see from the video....

    The video should be up in about 20mins....

    Cold Starting Audi 1.9TDI Dec 2011 - YouTube
    #97
  18. stu_m
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    stu_m Active Member VCDS Map User

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    [Dec 17, 2011]
    have you checked the injector loom? ive heard stories about that causing misfires

    its hard to tell from the vids

    thats a good price for the seals and bolts labour isnt cheap i might start doing car repairs if thats what they charge lol
    #98
  19. Funkyfin2000
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    Funkyfin2000 Member

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    [Dec 17, 2011]
    Oh aye injector loom replaced last year very early on! :)

    It is hard to tell on the vid as it doesn't look like its even that bad.

    Seals and Bolts yeah, my mechanic will get them through TPS but normally gives me a good rate, just the tandem pump was far cheaper through GermanCar Parts for some reason.

    Labour is very reasonable at £35 an hr pls vat.

    BVR Automotive in Stoke on Trent (Staffordshire VW Specialist | Staffordshire's Volkswagen Specialist | BVR Automotive) Dave is fantastic! Just can't get to the bottom of this fault.

    The other things is, the car does probably need a DMF and clutch soon 111,000 miles and on the original! He says thats probably to blame for the rocking engine, but rough idle and smoke won't be.

    I will try and measure some values starting tomorrow and get them posted up.

    Any specific blocks I want to measure for cold start to post up?

    Cheers for all the help guys. Espen has gone quiet at the mo :)
    #99
  20. quattrojames
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    quattrojames Moderator Staff Member Moderator

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    [Dec 17, 2011]
    This is not helpful in any way..... but I did laugh at the smoke screen drifting off down the street!
  21. Funkyfin2000
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    Funkyfin2000 Member

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    [Dec 17, 2011]
    Thanks James! Lol!
  22. Funkyfin2000
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    Funkyfin2000 Member

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    [Dec 18, 2011]
    Took some readings on VAG com this morning, these shots are when idling.

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    Did a VAG com scan and came up completly clear:

    Chassis Type: 8E - Audi A4 B6
    Scan: 01,02,03,08,09,15,16,17,26,36,37,45,46,55,56,63,76

    Address 01 -------------------------------------------------------
    Controller: 038 906 019 LJ
    Component: 1,9l R4 EDC 0000SG 5934
    Coding: 00003
    Shop #: WSC 06325
    WAUZZZ8E4******** AUZ6Z0D0*****
    No fault code found.

    Address 03 -------------------------------------------------------
    Controller: 8E0 614 517 A
    Component: ABS/ESP allrad 4529
    Coding: 04255
    Shop #: WSC 06435
    No fault code found.

    Address 08 -------------------------------------------------------
    Controller: 8E0 820 043 AA
    Component: A4 Klimaautomat 1424
    Coding: 00000
    Shop #: WSC 06325
    No fault code found.

    Address 09 -------------------------------------------------------
    Controller: 8E0 907 279 F
    Component: int. Lastmodul RDW 0517
    Coding: 00001
    Shop #: WSC 06325
    No fault code found.

    Address 15 -------------------------------------------------------
    Controller: 8E0 959 655 J
    Component: Airbag 8.4EP 1002
    Coding: 0010602
    Shop #: WSC 06325
    No fault code found.

    Address 16 -------------------------------------------------------
    Controller: 8E0 953 549 S
    Component: Lenksáulenmodul 0611
    Coding: 01012
    Shop #: WSC 06325
    No fault code found.

    Address 17 -------------------------------------------------------
    Controller: 8E0 920 950 M
    Component: KOMBI+WEGFAHRS. RB4 D42
    Coding: 01401
    Shop #: WSC 00628
    WAUZZZ8E45A079060 AUZ6Z0D0352197
    No fault code found.

    Address 45 -------------------------------------------------------
    Controller: 8E0 951 177
    Component: Innenraumueberw. 0704
    Coding: 00001
    Shop #: WSC 00000
    No fault code found.

    Address 46 -------------------------------------------------------
    Controller: 8E0 959 433 BC
    Component: Komfortgerát T3B 1512
    Coding: 07147
    Shop #: WSC 06325
    No fault code found.

    Address 56 -------------------------------------------------------
    Controller: 8E0 035 186 D
    Component: concert II GRO 0004
    Coding: 01001
    Shop #: WSC 06325
    No fault code found.

    End -------------------------------------------------------
    Last edited: Dec 18, 2011
  23. benjie
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    benjie Active Member

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    [Dec 21, 2011]
    Hope I'm not butting in, but I have the same/v similar symptoms to you funkyfin. I have a 2003 remapped AVF and the way you describe the starts is really well put and identical to my problem. Recently I have started getting erratic idle too, more-so when cold. I also have a slight hesitation at 2k revs, like it's not getting quite enough fuel. I booked my car in to get its cam belt done this week and asked the guy there about my bad starts and erratic revs. He asked me a few other questions (can't remember what they were now!) and he said that he's 90% sure my tandem pump is leaking and causing the symptoms. He told me to look in my fuel filter and if it's all black, that's another indicator. I looked inside and it's black as night in there (bear in mind I changed it myself in June!) He's going to check it out when doing the cam belt and then advise from there.

    Just chucking my 2p in case it's helpful to you.

    With regards to your VAG COM screen above - lots of things look out of tolerance or near to tolerance. Though it could be because the coolant/engine is quite cold though.
  24. Funkyfin2000
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    Funkyfin2000 Member

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    [Dec 22, 2011]
    Hi BEnjie,

    Very very interesting! Tons of people seem to have the same issue! Not sure if it is all the same or a number of different issues.

    I have done so much on this one, I think Tandem or Injectors is the only way to go now!

    Will get the filter checked when I have the service on the 3rd Jan but of course a new tandem will be fitted then.

    If you need a new one, German Auto Parts do genuine ones for £250! Miles cheaper than your garage can get or from Audi of course.

    When are you going for your cambelt for a further check?
  25. a8 tech back
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    a8 tech back Member

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    [Dec 22, 2011]
    increase the fuel in adaption channel 01 enter login code 12233 and adjust

    check the fuel and coolant temp before starting in mvb and check the timing angle in mvb 4 (you have there ok)

    i don't no why people replace the injector loom as it seems to be the latest internet fix like maf sensors used to be

    check the egr duty cycle as well and if in doubt disconnect the vacuum (blank the pipe off) and try that if alter the setting in adaption channel 3 again login 12233 is needed to allow access to change

    always store the original values to re input if no change

    also try delete learnt values address 01 adaptation channel 00

    all from memory so double check

    example of fuel altered standard value is 32768


    Adaptation Channel 001:
    Stored value 32783
    0 /min RPM
    0.0 mg/str Inj. Quantity
    -35.7°KW Idle Stabilization
    72.9°C Temperature




    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------




    Adaptation Channel 003:
    Stored value 32768
    0 /min RPM
    850.0 mg/str Mass Air / Rev.
    1249.5 mg/str Mass Air / Rev.
    4.8 % Duty Cycle


    to check the tandem pump you need to apply a pressure test and if it holds 1 bar then its fine and not leaking

    mine
    [​IMG]
    iphone 056 by a8 tech, on Flickr

    black fuel is just a collection of returning fuel affected by combustion and not always a leaky tandem pump but could be leaky injector seals however cleaning the tank out and cleaning the pre supply pump is worth it as the sludge can build up around the pre supply so make sure there is sufficient fuel delivery quantity and pressure
    Black diesel fuel can be caused by a number of different contaminants. Most commonly, the contaminant is either oil or soot. Because of the design concept of these engines, low levels of fuel discolouration are inevitable and acceptable. These low levels remain static and do not go on to cause any running concerns or driveability issues. Because of the recirculating fuel system and the low solvent properties of diesel fuel, discolouration will remain throughout the life of the vehicle.


    normally .50 bar should be held between the pressure pump and the tandem and the tandem pump has a residual pressure valve so if this is weak you will lose your overnight pressure and require more effort to start and hence blueish smoke and uneven idle

    you could connect a ammeter clamp to the pressure pump to calculate the cranking draw of the pump to confirm if its ok and connect a inline pressure gauge to the fuel in pipe downstream of the tandem to check holding pressure

    another way to test pre delivery is disconnect the injector loom so the engine is immobile and disconnect the fuel filter out pipe and connect a pipe to the filter which draws off into a measuring jug

    crank the engine for 10 seconds or so and you measure the quantity of fuel collected approx 450ml
    Last edited: Dec 22, 2011
  26. a8 tech back
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    a8 tech back Member

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    [Dec 22, 2011]
    swap injector number 2 with number 1 and recheck mvb 13 and see if the value swaps from cylinder 2 to 1 as it seems out compared to others also check the camshaft lobe on cylinder 2 for wear, might be nowt but worth looking at
  27. Funkyfin2000
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    Funkyfin2000 Member

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    [Dec 22, 2011]
    Cheers mate for the info on the VAG com . I don't really understand the values and what you say in your first post.

    I see what you mean about Module 13 on the 2nd injector will take some more readings on that once the car is warmed up and see if its well out! Will also monitor it from cold with vag com. The tandem pump will be replaced anyway as I have it and the car has 111,000 miles on it and I will be keeping it.
  28. a8 tech back
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    a8 tech back Member

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    [Dec 22, 2011]
    mine has been on for 120,000 and its fine and my fuel filter is black as well but my engine runs spot on apart from serious overnight cold snap it suffers from a brief lumpy period

    always rev the engine a little at idle for egr and air mass readings as well then after a small rev watch the readings for these two come into spec

    Happy Christmas
  29. benjie
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    benjie Active Member

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    [Dec 22, 2011]
    Mine's booked in for the end of January... quite a way away!
  30. Funkyfin2000
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    Funkyfin2000 Member

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    [Dec 23, 2011]
    Ive done some checking with vag com this evening.

    Injector 2 is showing a - figure (upto 1.00) on MB13.

    All the others were either near 0 or in the positive.

    Something suspicious there presumably....

    I have also logged in to adapation and reset the values on 00 and saved. Presume thats put them back to standard.

    I also changed 003 in adaption to 32783 and Revs have increased on idle.

    Will see what different that makes.

    wil check in the morning.
  31. a8 tech back
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    a8 tech back Member

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    [Dec 23, 2011]
    mvb 13 info

    Read MVB 013 idle speed rest control. The values are between -3.01 mg/H ...+3.01 mg/H. If the maximum values are almost reached in both directions (positive or negative), poor combustion can be assumed. This may be caused by the engine mechanics (compression) as well as the fuel supply and the pump injector elements. If the checks are not successful, replace the pump injector element with the high value (positive or negative) for the idle speed rest control. The idle speed rest control must always have some fluctuation. If the 4 displayed values in MVB 13 are static, the engine speed is too high or the injected fuel quantity in the MVB 1 display 2 is smaller than 3 mg/H.

    also look at mvb 23

    [TABLE="class: cc abstand-liste, width: 100%"]

    [TD="class: punkt"]
    Read MVB 023 (required -100 ....+100). High negative values - smaller or greater than -60...+60 (e.g. -75) - indicate a fuel supply problem. Check the complete fuel supply . A value over +60 suggests a jammed pump injector element or poor fuel quality. Replace only the pump injector element which is too high in the measured value block. All other pump injector elements whose measured value blocks are within the required range must not be replaced.​
    [/TD]
    [/TABLE]


    Last edited: Dec 23, 2011
  32. Funkyfin2000
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    Funkyfin2000 Member

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    [Dec 25, 2011]
    MVB 13 is fine from start....the injectors stay just in spec on starting and level out, and injector 2 just sits in as a minus figure whereas the others are all positive or thereabouts but all in spec.

    MVB23 is fine too, I think block 1 was the highiest but not out of spec at all.

    I've logged in and change adaption 01 and 03 to 32783....was that right?? :S
  33. Funkyfin2000
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    Funkyfin2000 Member

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    [Dec 26, 2011]
    Well, today the car started perfectly, no smoke no nothing!

    So not sure if these changes have done anything - A8 tech? what do they do exactly on adaption 01 and 03?

    Its also been VERY mild here (In NIreland at mo!) at 14oC which always make the car work better anyway! Could do with it getting cold again!!!
  34. a8 tech back
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    a8 tech back Member

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    [Dec 27, 2011]
    01 is fuel quantity and 03 egr duty cycle feed to the egr solenoid

    so you increase the fuel slightly and reduce the egr flow so less dirty air enters the combustion chamber

    you may notice a slightly smoother acceleration as well
  35. Funkyfin2000
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    Funkyfin2000 Member

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    [Dec 27, 2011]
    Interesting...so if that's helped the issue upping both those adapations....what does that point towards as the issue...

    tandem, injectors? compression issue?

    I will test again this morning as its colder.....so will try in a sec....

    then I will try with the settings back to the original as well. See if the problem returns.
  36. Funkyfin2000
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    Funkyfin2000 Member

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    [Dec 28, 2011]
    Tested twice now as its been colder....same problem although it doesn't happen for as long as far as I can tell and not as much smoke....I think!

    So there we go..... now we wait for the 3rd Jan 2012!

    Keep you updated folks!

    Rich
  37. a8 tech back
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    a8 tech back Member

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    [Dec 28, 2011]
    I think you need to upload a video so it can be seen
  38. Funkyfin2000
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    Funkyfin2000 Member

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    [Dec 29, 2011]
    Have already done lots of videos...here was the latest:

    Cold Starting Audi 1.9TDI Dec 2011 - YouTube

    and check my username for tons of others from the last year!

    Hope that helps!

    The hesitancy I get is at 1900RPM, did our return home from NIreland today, M6 A75 etc etc, and it's normally on lift off or squirting throttle.....always at 1900RPM....
  39. a8 tech back
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    a8 tech back Member

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    [Dec 29, 2011]
    Bloody hell its like a tractor

    I see the service is due so pop the rocker cover off and have a look (use long life oil but every 10,000 miles)

    Also collect the old oil and check for swarf

    1900 rpm could be due to worn cams, egr flow or tandem pressure/injector seals leaking

    Check the mvb 13 when the car is faulting not when warm

    Read the measured value block 013 in the engine control unit and check the idle stabilisation. If the idle stabilisation of one or more cylinders is above +2.0 mg/H, remove the cylinder head cover and check whether the roller valve lever and the camshaft are worn. The clearance of the roll to the roller valve lever can be measured with a 0.15 mm feeler gauge (see arrow in photo 1). If there is sufficient clearance and no wear marks, the vehicle is correct. The high value in the measured value block 013 (>+2.0 mg/H) must have another cause. If there is no clearance between roll and roller valve lever (0.15 mm feeler gauge) and the roller valve lever is worn or the roller valve lever is broken, replace the camshaft and the tilting lever spindle. If the roller valve lever is broken, check whether other components are damaged.
    [​IMG]
    pd head 1 by

    Ill check mine from cold in the morning and log mvb 13


    Last edited: Dec 29, 2011
  40. Greeny233
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    Greeny233 Active Member

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    [Dec 29, 2011]
    Think you are reading too much into this cold start problem. Every diesel i've owned including Audi's and BMW's have all had the same symptoms when the temperature drops below 6 or 7 degrees, as far as i'm concerned this is how diesels are when cold. I just let it tick over for a few seconds and clear before driving off.
    If you do find a definitive answer to diesels not starting well in the cold then let me know. :eek:)

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