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RS3

Discussion in 'A3/S3/Sportback (8P Chassis)' started by Matt, Mar 17, 2009.

  1. gavsteryoung
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    gavsteryoung Member

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    [Mar 18, 2009]
    Lifted from Subaru site...

    Basic Retail15% VATTotal RetailDelivery & Plates12 Months RFLTotal OTRCO2 g/kmVED BandIR
    2.5 STi Type UK£21788.24£3268.24£25056.48£528.52£455.00£26040.00243G19A
    2.5 STi 330S£25531.72£3829.76£29361.48£528.52£455.00£30345.00243G20A

    Makes an extra 5k for the Audi seem reasonable....
    #41
  2. warren_S5
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    warren_S5 Moderator Staff Member Moderator VCDS Map User

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    [Mar 18, 2009]
    Just say for a minute we choose to forget that accountants exist to put the anchors on anything remotely 'interesting' being conceived, there are surely only a few key facts that will make or break the argument of whether the RS3 can make it into production.

    1) Demand
    As has been mentioned quite eloquantly above, the RS3 would stray into the cost territory of some major league 2nd hand cars. You can buy an extraordinary car 2nd hand for £35k at the moment, but they unfortunately have running costs to match.
    This in part makes the concept of an RS3 a great buy for the well heeled petrol head, BUT how many people can or more importantly WOULD shell out the cash for a new one. Buying a NEW one is a very different proposition to buying a 2nd hand one, which is what the majority of folk would be looking to do.
    So for Audi to make the RS3 a serious contender as no.1 superhatch there is some serious R&D required to get the drivetrain & suspension up to the task of handling the 2.5T's capability. You'd have to assume they would widen the track, lower the stance, firm up the ride, widen the arches, put limited edition body parts and interior trim in it. All of these bespoke RS3 parts when produced in LOW volume (could they borrow from other parts bins???) cost a horrendous amount. Problem is you can't go and ruin the RS ethos by cutting too many corners.
    It makes absolute sense that given Audi's recent success an RS3 wouldn't be out of place, but you will bet they will monitor sales of the TT-RS first before putting another RS model out into the market. This single point could be the make or break of the RS3 which is a shame as it appeals to a very different market.

    2) Audi's long term vision for the A3

    Lets be honest here, whilst a class leading car, the A3 / S3 has never really shook the foundations of the hatchback world. The Focus RS models and Renault R26R have received far more positive press despite their obvious limitations, and the sticking point of the S3 is that it, like the 135i and Breara 3.2V6 are overpriced cars for people who want to mark their territory in the mid sector 'one upmanship' race. Whilst I kind of see the point here, I think they miss the fact that to me the S3 is a car I can rock up at a track day with, then go into Central London and park outside the Ritz and no-one will look at me as if I am a boy racer. In fact they think pretty much nothing which suits me fine as I'm not a habitual show off. The S3 is an accomplished and unfussy car which usually holds it ground in any arena or class sector. Audi will have to decide whether the A3 has the genes and the breeding to carry off the RS badge, as there is a risk that if they go sticking those 2 letter on everything it will lose the 'wow' factor (remember VW thought the answer to their future was sticking a GTI badge on everything in the MK4 Golf days, even if it was a pi$$y 2.0 112bhp - for the company car market - IDIOTS only went and nearly ruined the brand of Project GTi!!).

    3) Capacity
    In reality, do they have the manufacturing skill internally to manage another RS production line??? I appreciate the technicians only have to bolt together pre-built modules in most cases, but you have already seen the TT-RS being produced elsewhere. How many RS models can they support and supply parts for. A benefit would be that it would increase the demand and production of the 2.5T engine, thus reducing costs via economies of scale, as it seems strange they would build a bespoke lump for the TT-RS without it going in anything else (unless the plan is to install detuned versions in A4/5 for instance).

    I like others would love to see an RS-3. I would have it in a custom paint finish, and I would spec the in-house approved performance upgrade pack which they would have to start offering (yeah right)........ oh apologies I'm dreaming again.......

    So in reality although I'd adore one Ijust don't think it will happen, but then they said the S3 would NEVER get DSG or a sport back model as it didn't fit the ethos of the S car...... Hence, never say never!!!
    #42
  3. PaulAr
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    PaulAr S3 (8P)

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    [Mar 18, 2009]
    So are we getting one or not?:)
    #43
  4. Jamiekip
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    Jamiekip Member

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    [Mar 18, 2009]
    Some really good points and well delivered!

    A couple of things though, just to add to the debate.
    £35k as a price point. Considering the specs of some peoples S3's on this site, I don't think £35k will put that many people off.
    An S3 with buckets, DVD nav, BOSE, Cruise, Light pack and a few other bits and bobs is £33k, so clearly people are prepared to spend in that threshold.

    With regards running gear - most of the running gear would be lifted straight from the TT-RS, engine, brakes, gearbox, drive shafts etc - so development would be easier, or lets say the R&D budget would effectively be shared across the models making it more cost effective.
    The only real dev would be getting the suspension/damping sorted.

    I think you have hit the nail on the head with regards the tooling for wider arches. Note the TT-RS doesn't have any body work mod's like that and is no doubt the eact reason the TT-RS will be going on the standard TT production line, not a unique Quattro GMBH production line.

    You clearly bought an S3 for the same reasons I did - fast, capable, but not chavvy. I think the S3 deserves better recognition for what it can do. It will hassle cars in the sector above when pushing on, but you can also safely pull in to a clients car park without them pre-judging you.
    The RS3 could continue this trend, but as you say - it has to deliver!!!

    Capacity - as mentioned above, given that the TT-RS is runnig down the same production line as a TT-S or TT-TDi I'm sure they can dot he same with the RS3 and run it down the A3 production line so shouldn't cause any issues.
    Again, I agree 100% about the engine - why develop a new unit that delivers 340bhp and and 30mpg and stick it in one niche model? Doesn't make sense.

    I heard from someone several times that the RS3 was developed and ready before the TT-RS, but Audi management wanted the engine to launch in the TT for marketing reasons. If this is true, the RS3 could be launched sooner than we all think. I guess we'll see soon enough.

    I'll take mine in Sepang Blue please ;)
    #44
  5. PaulAr
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    PaulAr S3 (8P)

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    [Mar 18, 2009]
    The RS brand still carries heaps of respect and Kudos in the motoring world but was always the reserve of the bigger AUDI Avants/Salloons
    On that basis you could have argued that the baby of the range, the A3, would never see an RS version

    But now with the TT-RS (often criticised as style over substance and not held in particular high regard by the motoring press) around the corner, you might say that the RS brand has already lost its exclusivity, and so from a branding perspective there is no longer a reason not to produce an RS3.
    Whether or not AUDI see it is as economically viable is another thing.

    cheers
    Paul
    #45
  6. markwiggy
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    markwiggy Third Gear

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    [Mar 18, 2009]
    I have asked 2 dealers recently about the RS3 being developed during my negotiations for an RS4 avant, they both say nothing definate has been decided but it is a 'definate maybe' they seem to think it maybe after the new platform is launched. They may have just said that though to keep me intersted in a RS4, as I would probably keep my S3 and wait for the RS3 as the 8P does suit my needs better.
    I kind of hoped as a send off the 8P S3 they would increase the BHP put bucket seats in as standard and fully load it with goodies, maybe they will launch an RS3 instead, heres hopin.
    RS4 avant ??? not sure, dealers appear to be holding out for silly money at the moment, may just bung the dealer a deposit for an RS3.

    Mark
    #46
  7. Jamiekip
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    Jamiekip Member

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    [Mar 18, 2009]
    Hmm, I wouldn't trust a dealer.
    I know a couple of TT-S owners who are pretty upset about the fact they specifically asked before ordering "Is there a TT-RS in the pipeline" to be told "no, definately not, the S will be the sportiest model" and low and behold the RS comes out.
    They are there to sell you something now is the unfortunate truth.
    #47
  8. mattyboy199
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    mattyboy199 Active Member

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    [Mar 18, 2009]
    i didnt think audi release more than 1 RS model at a time but i understand an RS5 is in the pipeline maybe theyve changed that.
    #48
  9. markwiggy
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    markwiggy Third Gear

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    [Mar 18, 2009]
    It would appear so, as the RS6 is also currently in production.

    Mark
    #49
  10. XPOWER
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    XPOWER Member

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    [Mar 19, 2009]
    I was hoping that they would were building an RS3 when I was looking at buying my S3, I would have defiantly would have bought one.

    I think there is a market for a £34K to £40K hatchback. Mitsubishi have already marketing products in this price category:-

    2.0 Turbo Lancer Evolution X GSR FQ-330 by HKS Manual (Petrol) £33,999.00

    2.0 Turbo Lancer Evolution X GSR FQ-360 by HKS Manual (Petrol) £38,999.00

    If Audi do release an RS3 with the current generation A3 what will Audi do to the next generation S3 to make it better on paper than VW’s R20T without making it better than the 8P RS3?
    #50
  11. scottie123
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    scottie123 (●̮̮̃•̃) (●&# VCDS Map User

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    [Mar 19, 2009]
    #51
  12. scottie123
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    scottie123 (●̮̮̃•̃) (●&# VCDS Map User

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  13. warren_S5
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    warren_S5 Moderator Staff Member Moderator VCDS Map User

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    [Mar 19, 2009]
    pretty sh1tty photochop onto a sportback by Top Gear.

    Everything tells me I want one, I just don't want to raise my hopes as for the last 10 years it hasn't really been anything beyond speculation.
    #53
  14. JohnS3
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    JohnS3 Active Member

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    [Mar 19, 2009]
    A few years ago I would have really been up for an RS3. However, I think the next time I throw large sums of money at Audi it may be for a second hand B8 S4.
    #54
  15. Ash B
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    Ash B Well-Known Member

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    [Mar 19, 2009]
    As warran said pretty **** photoshop by top gear. But lets hope for the best and see if Audi do and can release the RS3 as there been soo many storey's over the years. And i dont think Jamiekip can take any more storey's, he needs to really thing!

    Ashley

    #55
  16. a3norwich
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    a3norwich Not anymore - Back 2 BMW (shh)

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    [Mar 19, 2009]
    But there have been no test mules/spy pics/indication that an RS3 is under development. An RS5 has been seen testing some months back so that must be the next RS model no doubt. And we knew about the TT-RS about a year ago. Still think an RS3 in the current A3 in unlikey!
    #56
  17. 10blazin
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    10blazin HYPERDRIVE NEEDED

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    [Mar 19, 2009]
    damn you right ,,, pretty **** i though it was a piss take i need a copy of photoshop and il do a nice rs3 for here i just cant get a copy and the 2 ive had i cant load on my laptop ........ but a spotback rs3 would be wicked


    #57
  18. Matt
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    Matt Active Member

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    [Mar 26, 2009]
    ?

    can you make your signature picture a bit bigger, cant quite see it
    #58
  19. Staz
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    Staz is a retronaut Staff Member Moderator VCDS Map User

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    [Mar 27, 2009]
    You make a good point, but don't forget the facelift A3 is with us until 2011 IIRC, that's plenty of time.

    They may want to make one still to test the water. Remember the MkIV R32 only came out right at the end of the MkIV's life. It was a success so the MkV came out a lot earlier. Also didn't the MkI TT 3.2 only come out right at the end too? And then the MkII 3.2 was there from the start.

    I think if they make the RS3, then on the next gen A3 the S3 will be out after a year and then the RS3 a year later.
    #59
  20. Staz
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    Staz is a retronaut Staff Member Moderator VCDS Map User

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    [Mar 27, 2009]
    Not wanting to get off topic, but the standards on this forum have dropped quite a lot over the last year or so. Some of the valued long term members have disappeared. It's up to us to make the noobs aware this is an adult forum for people of, what I like to think, above average intelligence, down to earth people.
    #60
  21. Matt
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    Matt Active Member

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    [Mar 27, 2009]
    I dont read every thread on here but I cant recall any threats of violence from the ones I have read
    #61
  22. PNH80
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    PNH80 Low life livin' the high life.

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    [Mar 27, 2009]
    I think the RS3 would only appeal to real enthusiasts who maybe feel a bit cheated by the S3 and are hell bent on having an 8P pushed to it's technical limits (thus accepting any price Audi pluck out of the air).

    Personally i think they should only charge a small premium for it over the S3 (say £35K as mentioned) and only offer it in tiny limited numbers, first come first serve. Y'know... as a good bye to the current A3 and it'd keep it super exclusive.

    To be honest though in the back on my mind i'm thinking.... Very lightly used E90 M3 vs. RS3 for the same price? Looking at it from an unbiased view it's hard to justify the price tag based on the current platform.

    Lets be honest, Audi are currently well into the development of the next generation A3. To produce the RS3 'properly' with reworked chassis, suspension, bodywork, interior etc... It would be a step backwards in development to start messing about with the 8P format again. I just can't see it happening. There will definitely 100% be an RS3 when the next generation model arrives though. There has to be!
    #62
  23. Mr.G
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    Mr.G Active Member

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    [Mar 27, 2009]
    I love the A3/S3 & RS3 Idea, as that is all that it is right now. An Idea. Until solid evidence is brought forward i'll believe it when i see it.

    Now this is what i'm talking about. I'd love to see an RS3 come out. I'd love to own one but at the prices that it's likely to retail at i'd never buy one unless it was a few years old and therefore cheaper. Pointless spending circa £40k on a 3 door hatchback which is no supercar.

    40K will get you these days a lovely V8 Vantage. I love those cars. It is silly to compare them but relevant as the pricing is the same.

    Even better would be a 996 911 Turbo. Ohhhhh gotta love those cars. 40K gets you a lovely example and i'm sorry but no RS3 would compare to a 911 Turbo, not even close imo of course.

    G
    #63
  24. Mr.G
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    Mr.G Active Member

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  25. warren_S5
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    warren_S5 Moderator Staff Member Moderator VCDS Map User

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    [Mar 27, 2009]
    The only thing people tend to forget when comparing cars, is whilst the RS3 would still be a £14k car with bits on it (within reasonable bounds as I couldn't see Audi doing a real proper job of it anymore with the accountants so entrenched in the business), once thing you have to remember about the humble hot hatch is:

    1) Sensible running costs - A mortal on a 5 figure salary can afford to run it
    2) Practicality - most people who own something VERY exotic own something else. My Dad's best mate has a DB-9 for weekends only. He uses a Range Rover Sport in the week as its more practical / reliable! Also he hates parking the Aston anywhere slightly contentious whereas you can park an RS anywhere (+ it fits in the parking space!)
    3) Hot hatches allow you to put stuff in the boot / back / carry 4 people - although this isn't a pre-requisite of sport car ownership it is welcome option so you don't always have to leave your mates behind!
    4) As the new Focus RS has proved in Top Gear magazine, a £30k hot hatch can keep up with a Ford GT on an average UK road (obviously not roads where you can do 160mph+ before someone drops in that angle).

    Whilst I'd happily concede I'd take a second hand 911 over an RS3 for purist driver experience and heritage factor; with no question at all; the RS3 would make an incredible hybrid product in the way that the Nissan GT-R has done against the Porsche 911. Ultimately you'd probably want still want the Porsche, but the tides are changing in the car world and whilst the Germans prove with the 911 they can make a world beating car, the Japanese are reinventing the concepts of what can be done with cars which should be applauded. If the RS3 was 'done right' it could be quite a niche product, but pricing would be critical (circa £36k base price OTR in my opinion). There will always be those buyers who want to be seen owning a 'heritage brand' to look like they are 'in the know', but as long as those heritage brands keep up with the world and don't just ride on the badge then entry for the cars such as an RS3 will be harder.
    #65
  26. MintyS3
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    MintyS3 Works 60% the time, Everytime.

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    [Mar 27, 2009]
    If I had the funds I would defenately be interested. I dont need a big car but I love Audi and I was yearn for more speed.
    #66
  27. liam
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    liam waiting, waiting, waiting

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    [Mar 30, 2009]
    Just reading Clarkson's S3 review from early 2007 and even then he was saying the RS3 would be after the next-gen A3.
    #67
  28. warren_S5
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    warren_S5 Moderator Staff Member Moderator VCDS Map User

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    [Mar 30, 2009]
    When I ordered my S3 you couldn't drive one in the UK as there were no demonstrators available in RHD.

    Some magazines were bigging it up for its bigger turbo, extra capacity (2000cc vs. the old 1.8T), it's ballistic performance, so like a fool I trusted them and went and paid my deposit of £1500.

    When the first demonstrator turned up at Reading Audi I got to drive it on it's first official day as a demonstrator. The informed dealer put £10 of 95RON in the tank (RTFM guys - it runs on 98!) and I went out for a 2 hour unassisted drive.

    I drove for 10 mins to warm her up, then stretched it's legs a bit. First of all I thought there was something wrong with it. The stage 2 Revo Leon Cupra R225 I had arrived at the dealers in would have absolutely whipped it in the dry. I appreciated the S3 had only done less than 1000 miles, but I was mortified by the performance to the point where I considered asking the dealer whether I could change my mind and go for a 2nd hand RS4.

    I'm not a wealthy man (in my eyes), so this was a fairly big purchase and I felt like I'd got it wrong. I'd never buy blind again unless the car was being sold in such limited numbers I had no choice but to. In the end I gave the car the benefit of the doubt and when she arrived it looked lovely, but I had it remapped / intake + filter inside 200 miles as it lacked any urgency.

    One of my life goals from the 1980's was to own an Audi Quattro from new. I have to say that whilst on paper there is a tick on the box, it is not the right one. It's an amazing small car in terms of luxury feel, and modified it feels LIKE IT SHOULD HAVE DONE FROM FACTORY (for me). However an RS3 would have been far more appropriate for my aspirations of the sensations I wanted to feel from an RS/S car.

    I'm not sure where I go from the S3. After 15 years as a VAG man I am tempted to go for a BMW 335 Coupe new shape, but will wait to see if the new S/RS4 can offer any more ballistic experiences. I've resigned myself to the fact the RS3 will never come, but if it does I'll be up for one.
    #68
  29. warren_S5
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    warren_S5 Moderator Staff Member Moderator VCDS Map User

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    [Mar 30, 2009]
    #69
  30. Jamiekip
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    Jamiekip Member

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    [Mar 30, 2009]
    #70
  31. klauster
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    klauster Well-Known Member

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    [Mar 30, 2009]
    40k for a hot hatch? (wih options) im **** with money and spend it like water, but thats just daft, you guys seriously going to spend that on a hatch?
    #71
  32. liam
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    liam waiting, waiting, waiting

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    [Mar 30, 2009]
    If it was a convertible would that make it okay? :o.k:
    #72
  33. warren_S5
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    warren_S5 Moderator Staff Member Moderator VCDS Map User

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    [Mar 31, 2009]
    to me, this statement about says it all (Quote from article):

    **** has also said that the current S3 wouldn’t need to be altered drastically, with only minor changes to the handling and aerodynamics required to bring it in line with what buyers would expect from an RS.

    ****, should this thread ever by a small miracle fall in front of your gaze, I as a member of the S3 buyer base I would NOT be impressed with a minor makeover for an RS3.

    What you speak of amounts to a dilution of the RS branding, and a chance for Audi to sell a car at nearly £40k a unit for something that starts out in life at around £14k. The S3 is currently little more than a 'boutique styled' rebadged Leon Cupra at a 50% premium, so to aspire to do very little in order to create an RS3 is just customer abuse rather than a good step for the RS brand (remembers the Mk4 GTi Golf when VW would stick as GTi logo on anything with 4 wheels on it).

    SOunds like a wasted opportunity already if it was going to go ahead.
    #73
  34. PaulAr
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    PaulAr S3 (8P)

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    [Mar 31, 2009]
    Ive read this thread back and there is loads of negative speculation.

    AUDI have never confirmed the RS3 will happen.

    And yet many of us reckon it will be too expensive and probably rubbish anyway.:think:

    Come on guys lighten up.

    cheers
    Paul
    #74
  35. Matt
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    Matt Active Member

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    [Mar 31, 2009]
    In the absence of hard evidence speculation is where its at Paul! :moa:
    #75
  36. PaulAr
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    PaulAr S3 (8P)

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    [Mar 31, 2009]
    Well I am `speculating` the RS3 will have 800bhp, rear biased 4wd, and made entirely out of carbon fibre.

    Oh and and it will retail at £48 as long as you have 6 vouchers from the back of family sized Sugar Puff boxes.:nyah:
    #76
  37. Matt
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    Matt Active Member

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    [Mar 31, 2009]
    ooff sign me up. thats the diesel version, right?!
    #77
  38. PaulAr
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    PaulAr S3 (8P)

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    [Mar 31, 2009]
    A diesel RS!:scared2:

    Heavens above my good man!





    Actually yes.
    Its the V12 from the R8.
    #78
  39. silverlogic
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    silverlogic S3RVA

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    [Mar 31, 2009]
    http://www.worldcarfans.com/9090331.020/audi-rs3-mule-first-spy-photos-at-nrburgring

    Where others are trying to climb up the premium ladder, Audi is moving downscale and presenting potential customers with performance options at the foot of the hill. Globally more and more people are buying down as a reaction to the recession. Therefore smaller cars with good performance are now quite desirable. A case in point will be this Audi RS3 mule which has been spied testing at the Nurburgring for the first time. The quick Sportback has different air intakes and a new engine.
    First unveiled in the upcoming TT-RS, the RS3's 2.5-litre 5-cylinder engine utilises a turbo to force out 250kW (340hp) and 450Nm of torque through the quattro AWD system. Anticipating that the RS3's weight will be almost the same as the TT-RS, we think it's safe to use the TT-RS's performance specs as the standard of comparisson here. The 0 - 100km/h dash should be achieved in about 4.6 seconds and an optional unlimited top speed will be 280 km/h (173.98 mph). This kind of performance is approaching RS4 territory but at a considerably lower price.
    Though the all-new A3 is only scheduled to appear in October 2010, an RS3 should follow at least 24 months later - just as the TT-S and TT-RS followed the TT debut. This would give the RS3 a launch date of at least 2012.

    #EDIT To add weight to this the Golf R20 mule has been sighted there recently too
    #79
  40. liam
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    liam waiting, waiting, waiting

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    [Apr 7, 2009]
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