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Rolling roaded and not a happy camper !

Discussion in 'A3/S3 Forum (8L Chassis)' started by S3 Paul, Jul 17, 2010.

  1. S3 Paul
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    S3 Paul Well-Known Member Regional Rep

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    [Jul 17, 2010]
    Today i took my car to RS tuning in leeds for a dyno run...
    The car has the following mods...
    Hybrid K04 turbo,
    3 inch downpipe and decat
    Forge boost hoses and 007p DV
    FMIC
    Miltek "cat back" system
    4 bar fuel regulator
    cotton green panel air filter

    The engine has done around 12k since a full build inc New block Uprated rods/pistons...

    The car has been mapped by JBS with a custom stage 3 Custom code map,

    Todays results...
    we had 3 runs...
    Run 1 = 239.1bhp @ the flywheel
    Run 2 = 200 bhp @ the flywheel
    Run 3 = 200.4 bhp @ the flywheel

    Not realy a good day !
    When i spoke to Paul the owner and guy who did my dyno runs he said the fueling is way off... the AFR went 13.2 at one point ! this is dangerously lean .
    The boost peaked at 1.4 bar @3500 rpm then slowly dropped to 1.3 @5500 rpm the strangely went back up to 1.4 again ?

    He seems to think the fueling is badly mapped and the boost control isnt very well set either.
    This is his opinion but i did see the runs myself and saw the figures.

    So....
    Where now?
    Im fitting my own AFR gauge tommorow now as im a little worried how much damage will be done if the car IS that lean.
    BUT if today is a true reading of what the car is doing ( i think it is as all the other people who went got readings within 4 bhp of what they have had at other dyno days) Where do i start? Is there something mechanical i need to look at? Can i log anything with vag com? Do i need a new map?

    The Rolling road used today is a Dyno Dynamics and was used in 2wd incase this makes a diffrence...

    :crying:
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  3. S3 Rav
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    S3 Rav Well-Known Member

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    [Jul 17, 2010]
    Bloody hell Mate that's not good. Hope you get to the bottom of it.
    #2
  4. Broken Byzan
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    [Jul 17, 2010]
    You need injectors IMHO, the 4 bar FPR just puts more pressure on the already struggling fuel pump.

    Some decent injectors and a fuel pump coupled with a decent map should sort her out assuming everything else is fine, Ie no boost leaks, fault codes etc
    #3
  5. Andrew@A.L.D
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    Andrew@A.L.D May add NOS to 600+bhp?

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    [Jul 17, 2010]
    As i said in another thread,

    Vauxhall VXR 470cc injectors.

    I've been speaking to Badger about my engine as i'm new to S3's/20vT and i have almost the same spec but a 2.1 and a ported head and he said i would most likely be running lean when i comes to mapping
    #4
  6. homer_s
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    homer_s Member

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    [Jul 17, 2010]
    TBH if i was in you shoes, i would get the car logged by some one who knows what there doing to see if the injectors are working flat out and if a upgrade is needed. Then cut your losses with custom code and get a proper custom map from somebody else.
    #5
  7. badger5
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    [Jul 17, 2010]
    mapping speedysteves now.. stock injectors are not up to it on his - max'd out, 440cc in there now and fueling ok
    #6
  8. S3 Paul
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    S3 Paul Well-Known Member Regional Rep

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    [Jul 17, 2010]
    What injectors will fit straight in ?
    i was talking to a lad who was there and he said "cant you log what the injectors are doing?"
    Can i?
    I have vag com and the car shows not fault codes
    Would the map need ditching if i changed the injectors?
    Andy... i was asked today by the tuner "you havent bored it out have you" as he said a k04 would never be happy with trying to fill the increase capacity?
    #7
  9. badger5
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    [Jul 17, 2010]
    what happened between the runs?
    Run 1 = 239.1bhp @ the flywheel
    Run 2 = 200 bhp @ the flywheel
    Run 3 = 200.4 bhp @ the flywheel

    40bhp difference after run 1...
    anything logged during the runs? afr, boost, plots would be usefull
    #8
  10. Dani_B19
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    Dani_B19 Audi-sports own special child.

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    [Jul 17, 2010]
    Hows steve going bill?
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  11. badger5
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    [Jul 17, 2010]
    i have used some 440'c i had here, but you need to be sure the nose of the injector is small diameter, and that the body of the injector is'nt close to the tip, else it will hold the o ring away from the seal position, bottoming out on the holder first. we had to change to larger o rings to get the 440's i had here to sit ncie and snug.

    if you can log a run, logging 001, 002,031, and 001,020,118 under wot in 3rd or 4th if possible, that might shed some light on an issue

    you can call me if you need assistance.
    regards
    bill
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  12. badger5
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    [Jul 17, 2010]
    progressing. work in progress so to speak.
    mapping will roll into tomorrow.. pretty close now, but some runs/tweaks should likely be needed
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  13. S3 Paul
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    S3 Paul Well-Known Member Regional Rep

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    [Jul 17, 2010]
    Ive got some plots... not everyone as it was kind of a dyno shoot out... and he had already spent half hour on my car ,
    I have the AFR for the 200.4 run and the boost was staying the same each run he said... i do have a plot of this too for the 200.4 run
    He surgested changing the fuel filter as it was done the end of last year??
    im going to change it in the morning but surely that would not be this bad?
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  14. badger5
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    [Jul 17, 2010]
    the logs i suggested will give a clue, if you are able to do them and send them post them up etc?
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  15. S3 Paul
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    S3 Paul Well-Known Member Regional Rep

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    [Jul 18, 2010]
    I will get these logs done today.
    Thanks for the help bill
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  16. S3KO4
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    [Jul 18, 2010]
    was it a 4wd dyno? I know you say the boost held up, could it be splitting hose, from run1 to run2? are they VAG tuners?
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  17. Andrew@A.L.D
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    Andrew@A.L.D May add NOS to 600+bhp?

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    [Jul 18, 2010]
    RS Tuning is a 4wd dyno
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  18. badger5
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    [Jul 18, 2010]
    DD seem to have very spikey haldex type car plots tho, so possibly run in fwd mode with fuse pulled perhaps.
    (guess)
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  19. S3 Paul
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    S3 Paul Well-Known Member Regional Rep

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    [Jul 18, 2010]
    Yes Bill it was run in 2wd ( front only )
    Paul said that some haldex cars will run on their dyno in 4wd but not all.
    He did try it but the wierd graph it was plotting made him stop ( said he could tell that the haldex wasnt going to play ball )
    So out came the fuse.
    #18
  20. S3 Paul
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    S3 Paul Well-Known Member Regional Rep

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    [Jul 18, 2010]
    Ive just been out to log the blocks you mentioned ... Im not very up on how to post them but i will try... i will email then to you too bill,
    http://sleeper.marklancaster.co.uk/


    #19
  21. Broken Byzan
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  22. badger5
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    [Jul 18, 2010]
    Code:
    Sunday	18	July	2010	17:01:14											
    8N0 906 018 J  		1.8L R4/5VT         0004													
    															
    	Group A:	'001				Group B:	'002				Group C:	'031			
    		Engine RPM	Coolant Temp.	HO2S Control	Adj. Conditions		Engine RPM	Engine Load	Ave. Inj. Period	Air Mass Flow		O2S1 Voltage	O2S2 Voltage	Bin. Bits	Bin. Bits
    	TIME					TIME					TIME				
    MARKER	STAMP	 /min	°C	%		STAMP	 /min	%	 ms	 g/s	STAMP				
    	0.01	2320	96	0	11101001	0.4	2400	124.8	9.86	62.92	0.8	0.93	0.945	        	        
    	1.2	2640	96	-7.8	11101001	1.61	2760	190.2	14.96	109.64	2.09	0.93	0.922	        	        
    	2.51	3040	96	-7.8	11101001	2.91	3200	191.7	15.98	122.11	3.33	0.867	0.86	        	        
    	3.73	3480	96	-7	11101001	4.22	3680	191.7	18.02	139.11	4.62	0.821	0.813	        	        
    	5.02	3960	96	-6.3	11101001	5.44	4080	191.7	17.68	153.39	5.84	0.813	0.813	        	        
    	6.33	4360	96	-3.9	11101001	6.85	4520	191.7	18.02	170.03	7.34	0.805	0.813	        	        
    	7.74	4800	96	0	11101001	8.25	4920	186.5	17.68	169.53	8.65	0.805	0.813	        	        
    	9.05	5080	96	2.3	11101001	9.45	5200	185.7	18.02	180.83	9.85	0.805	0.813	        	        
    	10.25	5360	97	5.5	11101001	10.67	5440	183.5	18.36	191.81	11.16	0.797	0.813	        	        
    	11.56	5640	97	10.2	11101001	12.08	5720	191.7	20.06	215.64	12.57	0.789	0.789	        	        
    	12.97	5880	97	12.5	11100001	13.37	5960	191.7	21.76	216.67	13.77	0.828	0.711	        	        
    
    and

    Code:
    	Group A:	'001				Group B:	'020				Group C:	'118			
    		Engine RPM	Coolant Temp.	HO2S Control	Adj. Conditions		Cyl #1	Cyl #2	Cyl #3	Cyl #4		Engine Speed	Intake Temp	N75 Duty Cycle	Press @ Intercool
    	TIME					TIME					TIME				
    MARKER	STAMP	 /min	°C	%		STAMP	 CF	 CF	 CF	 CF	STAMP	 /min	°C	%	 mbar
    	0.5	2040	96	-3.9	11101001	0.9	0	0	0	0	0.01	1920	29	94.5	1300
    	1.71	2320	96	-5.5	11101001	2.11	0	0	0	0	1.31	2240	29	94.5	1560
    	3.02	2760	96	-10.2	11101001	3.42	0	0	0	0	2.62	2600	29	72.5	2080
    	4.22	3120	96	-7.8	11101001	4.73	0	0	0	0	3.82	3000	30	69	2360
    	5.63	3640	96	-5.5	11101001	6.03	0	0	0	0	5.23	3520	32	67.1	2320
    	6.94	4120	96	-5.5	11101001	7.34	0	0	0	0	6.45	3960	33	67.5	2300
    	8.14	4520	97	0	11101001	8.56	0	0	0	0	7.74	4400	36	67.5	2270
    	9.45	4880	97	3.1	11101001	9.97	0	0	0	0	9.05	4800	37	65.5	2230
    	10.76	5200	98	4.7	11101001	11.16	0	0	0	0	10.37	5120	39	66.7	2240
    	11.96	5480	98	7.8	11101001	12.38	0	0	0	0	11.56	5400	41	68.2	2230
    	13.28	5760	98	14.8	11100001	13.68	0	0	0	0	12.78	5640	44	75.7	2360
    	14.49	6000	98	20.3	11100001	14.89	0	0	0	0	14.08	5920	46	76.9	2340
    
    Last edited: Jul 18, 2010
    #21
  23. badger5
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    [Jul 18, 2010]
    fueling actual reported by cars lambda is ok, maps adding some fuel under load, and boost is 1.3bar, g/s is low for a hybrid turbo at only 216g/s, no timing pull at all... (would take more then)

    fueling according to your cars own lambda is not miles out, its ok. (if cars lambda is reading ok that is)
    mass airflow looks low for a hybrid tho, so somethings amiss there, be it maf itself reading under, or the turbo is not flowing as its capable.

    nothing obvious leaps out at me I'm afraid

    {edit}
    duty cycle of injector at 5960rpm is 21.76ms which is 108% duty cycle... aka wide open, and max'd out.
    not good.
    Last edited: Jul 18, 2010
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  24. S3 Paul
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    S3 Paul Well-Known Member Regional Rep

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    [Jul 18, 2010]
    so... injectors and a few tweaks?
    Or a bit more in depth than that?
    Im fed up now and have been told by a local company that after looking at my logs the car is dangerously lean "when the turbo starts to spool" but ok on boost.
    In short he said dont drive the car at all as its lean in everyday driving conditions,
    Is this the case?
    If there isnt anything mechanical thats failed/ not as healthy as it should be the car was mapped like this about a year ago, Shortly before the new engine went it,
    #23
  25. badger5
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    [Jul 18, 2010]
    what did it do when it was dangerously lean (their words) before it came on boost... if its 0.9x lambda before boost onset thats normal. no need for higher fueling until its spooled up and producing power.. std cars run surprisingly lean in the low 0.9x lambda region.. which i personally find a tad alarming, but they know what they are doing on std cars at least.

    your logs when its on boost show it looking ok to me.
    injector duty cycle is too high however, so this should be addressed if it were my car

    if you log or see cruising lambdas, they will be at around 1.0, and under light throttle dip into the 0.9x region, then when proper boost buids the 0.8x fueling is where best torque is made, and low 0.8x, high 0.7x figures are when more fueling is added to assist in cooling, at the expence of best power.. - a balancing act

    if you have their logs or your logs or this reported danger area please post it up to see.

    what i cant explain is the 216g/s airflow from your k04 hybrid tho.. It is a hybrid is'nt it?

    cheers
    bill
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  26. S3 Paul
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    S3 Paul Well-Known Member Regional Rep

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    [Jul 19, 2010]
    I hope its a hybrid !
    I had the JBS k05 conversion and when that went pop i contacted Turbo Dynamics about a replacement to the same specifacation,
    Just a random thought but could the mass be poorly or on its way out?
    I will gladly log things cruising and part throttle to see if that helps?
    Im scanning the dyno print outs that RS tuning now so will post them as soon as
    #25
  27. Welly
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    Welly VX220 SC Driver :)

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    [Jul 19, 2010]
    That is a low figure for a hybrid, especially one of the JBS variants.

    I'm winding on average around 210 G/S, but up to ~215 G/S out of a K04 which is a bit poorly....
    #26
  28. badger5
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    [Jul 19, 2010]
    maf could be failing yes. and under read as well as throw out the fueling and cause more corrections than normal

    yours is likely same spec as georges3? (or s3George) TD spec turbo.. as his when I saw it did'nt flow a lot more than yours does now.
    ???
    Last edited: Jul 19, 2010
    #27
  29. Welly
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    Welly VX220 SC Driver :)

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    [Jul 19, 2010]
    Worth borrowing one from a mate if poss - rather than buy a new one if it's not the problem.
    #28
  30. S3 Paul
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    S3 Paul Well-Known Member Regional Rep

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    [Jul 19, 2010]
    Well i took the car and my logs to See the guys at JBS today and after a look at the logs i posted on here and the dyno graphs from RS tuning ( at the end of this post ) That the car is requesting more fuel when it starts to go lean but something just cant manage it... be it injectors. regulator issues or maybe the pump failing... this i think needs looking at before i look at where all the horses have gone. ( personaly i think they are all hiding under tufftys bonnet)

    These are the dyno read outs from RS tuning...
    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
    #29
  31. Broken Byzan
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    [Jul 19, 2010]
    If you are giving horses away, i will take some, Tuffty has plenty LOL
    #30
  32. Welly
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    Welly VX220 SC Driver :)

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    [Jul 20, 2010]
    That Tuffty - what a horse hogger..... LOL.
    #31
  33. S3 Paul
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    S3 Paul Well-Known Member Regional Rep

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    [Jul 20, 2010]
    I fully understand the argument for bigger injectors and may well need to go down this route. But as the car made good power befor and is now frankly slow, I think maybe something is tired ? Maybe the pump that i think is 4 bar? cant keep up with the needs ? as the normal reg is 3 bar slightly tired fuel pump may be ok providing 3 bar of preasure but strugle to make 4 under load?
    Im guessing here to be honest but i think that repairing anything or replacing it with something better suited to the job should be the first thing to try
    #32
  34. badger5
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    [Jul 20, 2010]
    why is the S3 pump and LCR pump referred to as 4bar?
    No S3 or LCR ever came out of the factory with a 4bar fpr on it, and I have never yet seen any flow information on the pump confirming its flow/pressure rating.
    mis-noma I think.. generated ironically by myself and Jabba 9 years ago when both our ibiza's melted down when the ibiza stock pumps, sagged when pumping against a 4bar regulator, and new S3 pumps fitted the problem went away. I suspect now the problem was tired pumps, not that the S3 ones were higher flow/pressure, but just new and working better cos they were new? I dont know, but would love to find the pump flow data one day to confirm whats what.

    you mentioned MAF sensor previously, so a good palce to start is trying a known working one in there
    #33
  35. S3 Paul
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    S3 Paul Well-Known Member Regional Rep

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    [Jul 22, 2010]
    Ah,
    I was lead to believe the plan ( if the pump is dead )is to fit a TT pump . Im guessing these are the same as mine already?
    I think the FPR or my car is from either a VR6 golf or an R32, Not too sure to be honest.
    Im just tryin to look at anything mechanical "bolt on" if you like, that i can sort out first before any mapping is looked at.
    If nobody lives local and is willing to let me try their MAF to see if mines ill i may need to buy one of these to try too.
    For once im trying not to throw money at it in the hope something i do will fix it.
    #34
  36. Dani_B19
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    Dani_B19 Audi-sports own special child.

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    [Jul 22, 2010]
    Id say use my maf paul, but i think mines shot.
    #35
  37. S3 Paul
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    S3 Paul Well-Known Member Regional Rep

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    [Jul 26, 2010]
    The car has been in today to look for the lost horses...
    Fisrt the car was checked for any fault codes , All good there,
    The the fuel pump was tested and the fueling logged,
    The pump drops preasure under sustained load, So ... the pump needs replacing, Ive justed picked up a new one and hope to get it fitted wednesday.
    One more thing to cross off the list ...
    #36
  38. badger5
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    [Jul 26, 2010]
    you on 4bar reggy?
    #37
  39. Chlippo
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    [Jul 26, 2010]
    what pump you ended up with?
    #38
  40. S3 Paul
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    S3 Paul Well-Known Member Regional Rep

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    [Jul 26, 2010]
    Yes bill im on the 4 bar reg.
    Its a direct replacement pump for mine.
    The pump so im told is indeed a 4 bar item too.
    Just hope the new pump will help find the lost hourses !
    #39
  41. Dani_B19
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    Dani_B19 Audi-sports own special child.

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    [Jul 26, 2010]
    Where you get the pump from paul? It cost a arm and leg?
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