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RIP my K04 - Replace...or Hybrid K04

Discussion in 'A3/S3 Forum (8L Chassis)' started by Jimgrim77, Jan 25, 2012.

  1. Jimgrim77
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    Jimgrim77 Member

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    [Jan 25, 2012]
    Having this week hit 130k miles my K04 finally seems to have cracked and subsequently failing under maximum boost. On my quest to 300bhp it reporting around 250bhp on the dyno, some 18bhp less than 6 months ago with bucket loads more mods mounted.

    As a result, I'm considering either a straight replacement or a turbo dynamics stage 1 hybrid.

    I must say that I still am not convinced about the aftermarket manifolds and might retain the oem and limit bhp/torque to suit and retain performance/ reliability as opposed to chasing figures.

    The stage 1 turbo dynamics is attractive as it features an uprated 360 degree thrust kit amongst other bits and I imagine would beat suit my purposes.

    Does anyone have experience of this and can offer opinion?

    I understand that westy went for new K04 and is boasted huge torque. Be interesting to hear others views.

    Cheers

    James
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  3. aragorn
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    aragorn "Stick a V8 in it!" Staff Member Moderator VCDS Map User

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    [Jan 25, 2012]
    If you've got a goal of 300hp your not getting there with the standard turbo, regardless of it being new or otherwise...
    #2
  4. bez101
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    bez101 Yorkshire & Humber Rep. Regional Rep VCDS Map User

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    [Jan 25, 2012]
    dont TD do a stage 2 ?
    id defo go stage 2
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  5. Dane
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    Dane Faster than a V12 Q7

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  6. Paradox1
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    Paradox1 Active Member

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    [Jan 25, 2012]
    have a read of beach buggy ko4 thread,may give you an idea of what option you have without having to remortgage your house!
    #5
  7. s3dave
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    s3dave TFSI Hybrid

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    [Jan 25, 2012]
    care to grab the quote westy.....:)
    #6
  8. Jimgrim77
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    Jimgrim77 Member

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    [Jan 25, 2012]
    Perhaps...but i may never know. Was pushing 280bhp pre custom tip. Torque = performance in my opinion and really it's about reliability and sustainability from here on in. 300bhp was a figure that many strive for and as I've modified most things aside from the rods and Mani, I thought I might be able to get there.

    In answer to another question, yea Turbo dynamics do a stage 2 but this would be overkill without intention to fit unproven manifolds (many years and not 6 months). I don't want to put too much strain on rods/mani essentially.

    Finally, Money isn't the issue and not for me. It's what's best for the task at hand. It's a 10 year old car, i ain't selling it but don't want to part with hideous levels of cash. £1000
    Ish for the turbo. Labour is £240 fitted.
    #7
  9. Westy
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    Westy Double Dark Side! Diesel & 8P

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    [Jan 25, 2012]
    I think it can be done and will soon know whether it can or not.

    I currently need another 25bhp to reach 300bhp. We all know how restrictive the standard exhaust mani is and Welly has proven just how much more power you can free up by using a tubular mani.

    I have a large port head to be fitted and I also have a (temperamental) WMI kit running at the moment. Both these mods will allow me to run more ignition timing. I'm sure the rough rule of thumb calculation is 5bhp per 1 degree of timing but I might be wrong.

    So with some aggressive timing and a decent exhaust manifold I dont see 300bhp to far out of reach.

    My turbo has already shown 326lbft of torque on Revo stage 2 software (see below) so I think it is possible to get 300bhp from a standard K04.

    [​IMG]
    #8
  10. superkarl
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    superkarl MAN OF STEEL

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    [Jan 25, 2012]
    Xs mani I'd proven. And will give you a more reliable car whilst giving torque and power gains. Less heat, lower egts, more flow. Youl certainly reduce the chance of cracking a turbo if thats what youve done.

    For trouble free get an oe ko4 and Xs mani. Contact sandip on here for a borg warner ko4 virtually brand new.

    Alternatively, 1000 quid budget might net you a hybrid on an exchange, but brings more challenges and more mods to the table.

    I believe, although not done YET, 300 is possiblefor a ko4
    #9
  11. Reesy
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    Reesy Well-Known Member VCDS Map User

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  12. beachbuggy
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    beachbuggy Well-Known Member

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    [Jan 25, 2012]
    Don"t mean to rock the boat but all K03 and K04 turbos have 360 degree thrust bearings from stock. They have too. I have asked a number of turbo builders what exactly their uprated bearing is, and the only straight answer i got was that the oil channel on the under side of the bearing was a little deeper to allow oil more flow..So don't be fooled into thinking that it's a better turbo because it has one... And as of yet non of the builders could offer any information as to it's actuall benefit and if it is really needed. Maybe it does help, but unlike the T3's which are 270degree bearings the K04s all have the 360 anyway so your not really getting an upgrade in my opinion.
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  13. v5 tt
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    v5 tt Member

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    [Jan 25, 2012]
    A k04 on a audi TT achieved 297-bhp at awesome gti a quite a while back and i think a couple of months ago on a TT rolling road day the same car with water-meth got 310-bhp with some pretty hefty torque figures and im pretty sure this was on stock manifold
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  14. badger5
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    badger5 www.badger5.co.uk Site Sponsor

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    [Jan 25, 2012]
    indeed.
    and same car later made a shed load less for no change after visiting Powerstation and then back to Awesome again
    dyno lottery at its best or at least a sickening car

    AmD also have recorded K04 stage 2 LCR's with >300bhp.......... without the neccessary airflows to support it however.
    Unless rocket fuel was being used, its intriguing as to where the power came from if not airflow alone
    :think:
    #13
  15. v5 tt
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    v5 tt Member

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    [Jan 25, 2012]
    yeah hard to get a true reflection on various dyno,s i know he had a forge actuator and was probably running some crazy boost,
    and on stock rods how he hasn't bent a rod yet im amazed his torque on both dyno,s was showing something like 350lbs
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  16. Jimgrim77
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    Jimgrim77 Member

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    [Jan 25, 2012]
    That's really interesting. So you are saying that it's a stock K05 element and probably being used as a selling tool for hybrids by turbo manufacturers then?

    To be honest, I'm still really not sure which way to go. I have to replace the turbo and it makes sense to change the manifold at the same time but having looked at the xs power manifold, i'm sceptical about it's long term longevity under duress.

    If you all had the option of K04 or K04 hybrid (without money being an issue) - which one would you go for and why?
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  17. Jimgrim77
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    Jimgrim77 Member

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    [Jan 25, 2012]
    Sorry, stock K04 element i meant to say.
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  18. Prawn
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    Prawn My other car is a MINI!!!!

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    [Jan 25, 2012]
    I'd still go with the hybrid, and Infact, I did. I thought about running a ko4 flat out to get ~280bhp, but then realised that it'd just self destruct over time with hard use like my ko3 did when run flat out.

    With the hybrid, I can get the same power at WAAAY lOwer boost, as well as the benefit of a larger power band, as the hybrid can hold its boost even past 7500rpm....
    #17
  19. Jimgrim77
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    Jimgrim77 Member

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    [Jan 25, 2012]
    Thanks.

    What manufacturer did you go with?...I'm looking at turbodynamics but should i be considering others?
    #18
  20. Prawn
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    Prawn My other car is a MINI!!!!

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    [Jan 25, 2012]
    I have Wellys old CR turbo's unit, most of the successful hybrid builds I've come across seem to be using CR turbos. I believe the exact spec they use is something that Bill devised with them
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  21. aragorn
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    aragorn "Stick a V8 in it!" Staff Member Moderator VCDS Map User

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    [Jan 25, 2012]
    A prawn pointed out, running any turbo on the ragged edge of its possible airflow/power will seriously reduce its life.

    Given you've said you want reliability and sustainability, then IMO those two requirements require a larger turbo thats not running on the ragged edge, for your desired power, or a much revised goal.

    Maybe it will be possible to extract 300hp from a K04, but its no going to be a good idea imo.
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  22. Westy
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    Westy Double Dark Side! Diesel & 8P

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    [Jan 25, 2012]
    The only reason i'm pursuing 300bhp from a K04 is because I bought a brand new one last year and dont want to now shell out for a hybrid or big turbo. If and when this K04 is knackered I will then have a car that will be hybrid/BT ready. Plus everyone wants to see what a K04 can do dont they ;)
    #21
  23. beachbuggy
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    beachbuggy Well-Known Member

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    [Jan 25, 2012]
    There may be some truth in what they say but in my opinion I think a lot of it is marketing hype.

    Here's a few examples from k04 hybrids being sold. These are all to improvements to justify the price tag.

    Modified seal plate, ( not needed as the 2283 compressor wheel fits on the existing k04)
    360 thrust bearing
    Up-rated twin seals ( plenty of turbos run fine on 1 seal and have seen reports of the twin seals causing problems)
    Left hand trim exhaust wheel ( they all are, even the K03! )

    I think as bill proved porting the waste gate is a far better upgrade, which no one seems to offer, other than sticking a 26mm bore through the middle!!!

    Thing is these components run in stock form ie normal thrust bearings, backplates, seals etc on the new s3 and TT's at over what our hybrids can do with no problems so why the need to change them. Most important thing is building it using good parts and balancing. If you just throw it together or use cheap Chinese parts, then they are not worth the additional money!

    Call me cynical but I do feel some companies are using the word "hybrid" to over charge when actually it costs very little extra to make one!
    #22
  24. aragorn
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    aragorn "Stick a V8 in it!" Staff Member Moderator VCDS Map User

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    [Jan 25, 2012]
    By all means, i was simply point out that Jim was saying he wants reliability and whatnot, and the way to go about that isnt to screw every last horsepower from the turbo!
    #23
  25. Prawn
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    Prawn My other car is a MINI!!!!

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    [Jan 25, 2012]
    I've learnt the hard way that running anything on it's limit will kill it faster. My car on the st2 ko3S used to be SO quick, just like Jardos is now, yet over time and abuse, it just got slowly slower and slower until it went from 230+ bhp down to sub 200 as the turbo died.
    #24
  26. beachbuggy
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    beachbuggy Well-Known Member

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    [Jan 25, 2012]
    See that's interesting as your still going to run stock rods on your engine?! Won't your hybrid just kill them faster?
    #25
  27. Prawn
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    Prawn My other car is a MINI!!!!

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    [Jan 25, 2012]
    if it's allowed to rip, then yes, it'll kill the rods in minutes!

    But I won't be letting it run anywhere near it's full potential, where my current ko3S in it's prime was making 230bhp and 290lbft, the ko4 hybrid, on low boost, will be the almost exact opposite, with 280-290bhp, and probably only 240-250lbft judging from what Bills got in the Lupo, so the load on the rods will actully be less than the ko3S running flat out! but the car will still be hugely quicker, because that 250lbft will be held over several thousand RPM, compared to the ko3S giving a huge spike at 3500rpm then dying instantly.

    Also, unlike many people who say 'yea it'll be fine!' I fully know the risks, and will drive accordingly too, never loading it up from low revs and the like. As soon as the car is running and mapped I'll be looking for a new engine to build up with rods and a few other nice bits :)
    #26
  28. Jimgrim77
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    Jimgrim77 Member

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    [Jan 25, 2012]
    Thanks everyone. Really interesting reading.

    I think that I'll hybrid and now do the xs power mani at the same time with view of doing the rods in due course.

    I have read that cr turbos seem to be priced competitively with an exchange option. Would consider them or turbodynamics but wonder about anyones views on both?
    #27
  29. aragorn
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    aragorn "Stick a V8 in it!" Staff Member Moderator VCDS Map User

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    [Jan 26, 2012]
    I suspect they're much of a muchness, what i'd want to find out is EXACTLY what they're selling you. IE what wheels used and what changes they're making to the housings etc.

    Turbodynamics seem a bit more expensive, but i couldnt say if they're any better. I suspect not however.
    #28
  30. Paradox1
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    Paradox1 Active Member

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    [Jan 26, 2012]
    a guy on UK mkivs who used cr turbos had nothing but trouble with cr turbos,sent it back 4 times with but the problem was never resolved. I guess its hit and miss though. as others have said, they become unreliable when running on max
    #29
  31. Westy
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    Westy Double Dark Side! Diesel & 8P

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    [Jan 26, 2012]
    To be fair I've heard reports on this forum of inconsistent work coming from CR Turbos. I went with Turbo Dynamics to get my old K04 refurbed. In the end it was un repairable and I had to buy a brand new unit but I was impressed with their customer service. I have no personal experience with CR though.
    #30
  32. 16Klappe
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    16Klappe Princess Clap.

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    [Jan 26, 2012]
    I like this.
    #31
  33. Dane
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    Dane Faster than a V12 Q7

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    [Jan 26, 2012]
    Last edited: Jan 26, 2012
    #32
  34. Jason.s
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    Jason.s Active Member

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    [Jan 26, 2012]
    Yeah but they cost a fortune! Just look at that price! The euro to the pound isnt far off identical last time i looked so you`ll be paying nearly £1500...
    #33
  35. Dane
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    Dane Faster than a V12 Q7

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  36. badger5
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    badger5 www.badger5.co.uk Site Sponsor

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    [Jan 26, 2012]
    Thats applicable to ALL turbos is'nt it
    #35
  37. Paradox1
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    Paradox1 Active Member

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    [Jan 26, 2012]
    of course but running a ko3s and running a hybrid, both at full boost, id put my money on the k03s to last longer tbh.

    I haven't heard of anyone having a high powered hybrid for over a year without problems. maybe I'm wrong, I don't know. how long did welly have his hybrid for?
    #36
  38. <tuffty/>
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    <tuffty/> Badger 5 Edition Staff Member Moderator

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    [Jan 26, 2012]
    Welly didn't change his hybrid because it failed, he just changed it as he wanted more power...

    <tuffty/>
    #37
  39. badger5
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    badger5 www.badger5.co.uk Site Sponsor

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    [Jan 26, 2012]
    speedy steve has been running one for >18 months now
    #38
  40. s3dave
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    s3dave TFSI Hybrid

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    [Jan 26, 2012]
    Ive run an hybrid for 2 and half years with no probs...although not to its full potential..:)
    #39
  41. Jimgrim77
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    Jimgrim77 Member

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    [Jan 26, 2012]
    I just wanted to thank everyone for their input into this thread, it's given me a lot to think about and I very much appreciated it.

    For those interested, I've just ordered a Turbo Dynamics hybrid stage 2 for my purposes...toyed with stage 3 but reckon that the 2 will deliver what i want.

    Also spoken with Sam and he's providing me with the order details for the relentless/xs power mani for a quoted £192 which i'll order tonight.

    So, all in all, an expensive day but one which I'm hoping will result in a car that will have the enhanced performance, free-flow, torque and reliability that i'm after.

    Cheers

    Jim
    #40

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