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Revo Stage 2+ with KMD fuel pump internals from JBS

Discussion in 'A3/S3/Sportback (8P Chassis)' started by warren_S5, May 27, 2009.

  1. warren_S5
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    warren_S5 Moderator Staff Member Moderator VCDS Map User

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    [May 27, 2009]
    After fannying about for ages I finally made the round trip to Chesterfield where Nino at JBS Auto's had sourced me some KMD fuel pump internals. I'd given up hope of seeing any Autotech internals, so resigned myself to testing out KMD's offering. I'd never been to JBS before despite seeing them at GTi international a few times. The office was tidy, comfortable and the addition of a PS2 with GT3 was pretty welcome! Service received was very good.

    The guys at JBS had it fitted within an hour, and it wasn't long before I was rolling back down the M1 towards Daventry in Northants to Revo HQ.

    Initial impressions were pretty mixed. Whilst the car felt slightly less sluggish at the top end, it was a mixed bag across the rev range, with moments of inspiration in parts, and then areas where there was something lacking in others. There is that feeling where after you've spent some cash you are trying to convince yourself it was worth the money, and initially that warm feeling was lacking a little. Mindful the car would need to adapt, I rode with it and waited for Revo's input.

    As usual the guys at Revo (Kev & Carl) were on top form with customer service. I even got to see the new premises which look as though they will offer fantastic facilties. Coffees and a catch up, whilst Carl went to work on the car (Note: Carbonia filter and intake & NGK Iridiums are the only other mods). I don't have an aftermarket exhaust / downpipe, and with the possibility that the car may go back in 9 months I wasn't going to bung out £1,100 on one as it would be a poor return. Objective of the day was to get the most fun for the remaining 9 months of ownership for a fair outlay.

    Kev suggested we try stage 2+ despite the lack of the Milltek / downpipe, and I'm pleased to say that the results are unbelievable. It's no secret that I've always been grossly underwhelmed by the stock power of the S3, and although Revo's excellent stage 1 map provided a great interim solution, the stage 2+ with fuel pump is a revelation. To me there always seemed to be a slight malaise when accelerating hard under load from mid range speeds, particularly accentuated in warm weather where the inlet temps were noticeably higher (in stock mode). Whilst stage 1 optimised the situation available from the OE kit, the new fuel pump with stage 2+ map pulls so much harder to the redline. Gone is the slightly lazy and laboured progress with in gear acceleration, replaced with a sharp raspy surge which just keeps going. Fuel consumption is pretty much like for like, and it's only if you gun it constantly that you see any marked change. The general around town ride remains absolutely composed and well mannered. Overtaking is no longer an activity with any residual fear, instead you'll just shreak with pleasure as the car continues to surprise you with its relentless shove.

    Just as a point of note, the OE pump internals showed a slight sign of wear on the tip, but nothing significant or as severe as some internet sites suggest (car is MY07 EA888).

    So often, and particularly more recently, I have found than in some cases the cost of modifications can be very high against the benefits you actually get in return. In fact sometimes you can be left wondering whether you are getting any benefit at all. Hand on heart, I can honestly say that this KMD pump with the Stage 2+ map are a match made in heaven. Even minus the full exhaust system it feels every bit the real article, and I'd be fascinated to see what kind of gains I get at the next RWYB (0-100 is unbelievable).

    For anyone on the stage 1 set up who wants a great upgrade that is well under £400* (for mere mortals without APR money), you won't be disappointed. I was very dubious, but a tank full of Optimax later and I feel very pleased that the car will see us out for a great last 9 months. Also got the new Revo Select Switch and was pleased to find it works on Vista (32 bit). In a year when money is less plentiful it was REALLY uplifting to feel that the money had been very well spent.

    *Requires Revo Stage 1 at full RRP before Stage 2+ addition can be added.
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  3. Ash B
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    Ash B Well-Known Member

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    [May 27, 2009]
    Hi Warren, Hows things? Hope your well


    I must say thats a great write up there mate....And also very helpful and a lot of good information here! How come the car going in 9 months? Replacment?
    As you can see decided to stay with Audi and not go for that Seat :) lol. Good choice i think!

    I take it your quite impressed with the results? And obviously recommend it to people. Dont blame you for not spending the £££ for downpipe. Enjoy the car and once again good write up



    Thanks

    Ashley
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  4. Jamiekip
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    Jamiekip Member

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    [May 27, 2009]
    That's really interesting that the pump can make such a difference without the CAI and exhaust..........
    Did it go on the RR at Revo?
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  5. warren_S5
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    warren_S5 Moderator Staff Member Moderator VCDS Map User

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    [May 28, 2009]
    Usually change every 3 years, however with the way the S3 is going now I could be tempted to make that 4.

    Personally I think given the quality of the average Audi dealership SEAT make for an attractive proposition. I still love them for the money, and the new Bocanegra versions should put the wind up a few cars (see Performance Car magazine this month where the Revo Leon outdrags the Focus RS!). Can't dispute the Audi is by far the nicest place to be sat, but for a hefty premium!

    I'm going to be controversial here. Over the years I must have spend £50k on modding various cars, and whilst some mods are noticeably beneficial (Forge FMIC on the Leon Cupra R comes to mind), others make marginal improvements (and I do mean marginal for often very big bucks). I've had a range of exhausts over the years, blue flame, magnex and finally on the LCR a full Milltek system with 100 cell race cats. Whilst from a manufacturing perspective it was beautiful, was the performance per £ ratio that good? Hard to tell. If you go BT like BigAndy S3 then there is a case for it, but my new motto on exhausts is replace it when it's shagged. The exhaust is not the weak point on the S3, the fuel pump is. You will be amazed what a pump, an uprated intake and a map can do with NOTHING else; trust me! YES, you will eek out a few torques and a few horses by carefully selecting a good exhaust and other partnering equipment, and if money is no object then absolutely why not.

    Kev logged the car on the fly with settings 9/6/6 (Boost/Fuel/Timing). No issue with inlet temps etc.... It was always under the impression that if it was too much for the car that we could have reverted to a 'softer setting'.

    As you say, very very pleased, and will provide happy last 9 months of motoring!!

    No RR yet, Revo have just purchased a new facility where they are having aRR installed with extensive cooling. I'm not a big RR fan (dyno lottery) so will wait for RWYB at GTi international & lap times at Combe for results!
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  6. warren_S5
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    warren_S5 Moderator Staff Member Moderator VCDS Map User

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    [May 28, 2009]
    Attached is a photo of the fuel pump internals from the OE Audi unit.

    Close inspection saw there was some very light wear on the head of the pushrod, but nothing out of the ordinary or as extreme as some cars have experienced (car is MY 2007 EA888, 25,000 miles). Apologies, but no pics of the new KMD part.

    [​IMG]
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  7. Iggu
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    Iggu Active Member

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    [May 28, 2009]
    As always from you Warren - great write up.
    One question though - why are you running Fuel 6 on Revo ? If you put decent fuel in you can alwys run Fuel 9.
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  8. DeckedS3
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    DeckedS3 Active Member

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    [May 28, 2009]
    So no clutch upgrade yet...... Let us know how you get along. I've planned to get my pump upgrade but haven't found the time! When I get back I must get this sorted out :)
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  9. warren_S5
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    warren_S5 Moderator Staff Member Moderator VCDS Map User

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    [May 28, 2009]
    Hi Iggu,

    Settings on my Revo Select Switch are as follows:
    B = Boost
    T=Timing
    F= Fuelling

    STOCK (When back at dealers) : B 0 / T 0 / F 0
    PERFORMANCE (Unmodified performance setting): B 6 / T 2 / F 9
    SETTING A (For very hot weather - high intake temps): B 6 / T 4 / F 8
    SETTING B (Everyday setting for very good performance): B 8 / T 5 / F 7
    SETTING C (High performance setting - track days / race): B 9 / T 6 / F 6

    I got Kev to set these up for me based on the way the car had been running. I have to admit I'm no expert in these matters so leave it to them to resolve the optimum set up, so Whilst I may have a fiddle with the Select switch settings to Fuelling 9 on setting 3, only the guys at Revo could comment on the set up above and it's merits. 99% of the time I use Shell Optimax 98RON, and the others I use BP Ulitmate 97 or Tesco 99 (although I have heard the excessive additives in this fuel could cause long term build ups).

    Just as a point of note, the Select switch firmware has been upgraded, as have the settings on the switch. Revo users may want to get back in touch with Carl / Kev to get their switches updated to latest spec. Position 9 now includes a FIRMWARE UPDATE selector for any future updates which is very useful. This requires software version 1.8 CD Rom for compatibility, and although only recommnded for use on WinXP, also operates on Vista 32bit OS.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
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  10. Spin140
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    Spin140 Active Member

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    [May 28, 2009]
    Excellent write up and interesting read.
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  11. warren_S5
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    warren_S5 Moderator Staff Member Moderator VCDS Map User

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    [May 28, 2009]
    First thing the wife said when I got back last night was "So how long will this clutch last now" :motz:

    Since my last clutch / DMF / rear diff at 11k miles I've treated the car like an angel, so will be interesting to see if there is any further degeneration. I don't do traffic light grand prix, so only ever tend to use the torque when overtaking. If it does go I've budgetted for a Sachs, but then I'd have to be looking to keep the car for a 4th year.
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  12. Iggu
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    Iggu Active Member

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    [May 28, 2009]
    I too have heard unpleasant things about Tesco so I avoid it.
    Your fuel settings are interesting and you're right to trust the man Kev - nobody will know better ! I didn't realise you should knock the fuel settings down for harder driving and have never had mine off F9. I'm currently running B9 F9 T6 but will tinker with the fuel settings and see what Vagcom shows up. Fewer correctional factors maybe ?
    Thanks again - always interesting posts yours mate.
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  13. Rabbit222
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    Rabbit222 Active Member

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    [May 28, 2009]
    Excellent write up Warren!

    I am confused about 1 thing though, I was of the impression that an aftermarket DP was required for Stage 2+?
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  14. warren_S5
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    warren_S5 Moderator Staff Member Moderator VCDS Map User

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    [May 28, 2009]
    So was I, so you and me both :uhm:. We decided to try it and observed no negative performance related issues. I'm sure you can squeeze some extra bhp with the DP / full system, no question about that, but with an intake, decent plugs and a fuel pump you have most of the main requirements for stage 2. I don't know if Revo have a secondary setting for cars without DP on this map, but as far as I am aware this is the real deal.
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  15. dc240969
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    dc240969 Member

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    [May 28, 2009]
    The only thing about this thats running through my mind is wouldnt tempretures in the system be high. lve heard cats can burn out.
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  16. warren_S5
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    warren_S5 Moderator Staff Member Moderator VCDS Map User

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    [May 28, 2009]
    So you're saying that by sticking with the OE Audi factory DP there are heat dissipation issues?

    Kev checked the inlet temps which weren't excessive, and I'm using a cooler grade of NGK Iridium IX plug. Whilst I see the logic behind you're thoughts, and did wonder whether a Forge twintercooler might help, I'm not sure how the DP would help here. To be fair I'm a fairly considerate driver and only gun it occasionally in the right environments.
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  17. dc240969
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    dc240969 Member

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    [May 28, 2009]
    lm pretty much the same type of driver. But theres a thread somewhere that sprung to mind when l orginally read this. l dont think the twintercooler will help as these temps are after combustion.
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  18. Rabbit222
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    Rabbit222 Active Member

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    [May 28, 2009]
    As far as my knowledge goes, yes. I am assuming Kev and Carl have done more extensive testing and have found that its not entirely necessary to replace the OE factory DP..

    Ok just got confirmation from Carl and it seems and I quote:

    In regions with high atmospheric pressures and high temperatures you should never run stage2 or stage2+ without a downpipe.

    Seems like we here in SA are screwed lol!
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  19. dc240969
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    dc240969 Member

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    [May 28, 2009]
    Right then. Combining a thread or two. It seems one of our clan is running a Dp, sports cat and fabricated middle pipe and keeping the standard back end. So in light of this thread all thats really needed is a sports catand middle. Sorry but lm a bit sceptical but in saying that it saves a good whack of money, if there are no downsides.
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  20. warren_S5
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    warren_S5 Moderator Staff Member Moderator VCDS Map User

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    [May 28, 2009]
    From my perspective if the exhaust goes, then it goes. I'll replace it. However I'm happy to see it live out it's life under a bit of stress and tension if that is a by product of stage 2. I'd happily do the DP and cat if it fails, but as said above, will only change the exhaust parts of a result of failure these days unless they are a 'must have' pre-requisite to upgrade path. I appreciate this issue is specific to temperature.

    I know a couple of guys that have rotrex supercharged an R36 lump into a Golf Mk2. They swear blind that whilst aftermarket exhausts/DP's are nice, they offer limited benefits for anything other than out and out track work. As I'm not an engineer its hard to comment otherwise, but I do believe that internet forums fuel (pardon the pun) non issues which people often translate into hard fact (fuel pumps being a prime example - the early units running softer lobes had some issues, some companies handled the PR related to these issues better than others, and therefore have a better name on paper despite having similar issues for instance).

    When modding a car to a limit you have to be realistic and expect that stuff can fail prematurely. You could say I need to do the clutch, but I haven't. Yes it will probably need doing, but I'm not going to do it whilst there is life in the old dog yet. Ditto the DP / cat. The fact is I have 9 months of significantly better performance ahead of me, and so far the costs have been respectable. Only time will tell out if my short cut measure will come back to haunt me, and if so then others can benefit from that knowledge as it comes out.
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  21. dc240969
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    dc240969 Member

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    [May 28, 2009]
    l totally agree with what you have said. makes me wonder whether certain dealers, or all, are saying oh you must have this and that before you go and do this or that.
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  22. N8
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    N8 Kowalski Details VCDS Map User

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    [May 28, 2009]
    Well done Warren. I'm using JBS for my custom code phase 2 map, gonna get a price right now!
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  23. Jamiekip
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    Jamiekip Member

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    [May 28, 2009]
    Intersting thread you've kicked off here Warren....

    Anyway, Down pipe and custom centre - that'll be me then - and like said before, the DP and sports cats allow burnt gasses to be released more effectively reducing temp's... effectively better for the set up of the car. In terms of gains, it has deffo made a difference though, and remember I'm running the GIAC Hammer file which adapts as the mod's go on.
    The car spools up far more effectively and gives 30lb/ft more torque from 2500rpm to 4000rpm and higher headline figures. Just goes to prove, you don't need to go to the expense of a full system.
    I do think my car is torque shy though - always has been lower than many others :(

    Really interesting that Revo say the CAI and Exhaust aren't needed... does beg the question what the purpose of the Stage 2 file is though?
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  24. warren_S5
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    warren_S5 Moderator Staff Member Moderator VCDS Map User

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    [May 28, 2009]
    I know people often come on forums blowing a lot of hot air out of their @r$e$ when they get some new gadge. For members only, I'm more than happy to do a demo run if you are passing through West Berkshire to see whether you think it works. As said above, only time will tell if I have the long term reliability or failures, but Kev has access to the Leon Cupra (Revo's one), and has seen many other S3's / Ed30's. He said the car feels pretty good, so he, is my only other witness. Of course its not going to be in the same league as the fully tweaked cars, but against a standard S3 it feels like a bloody rocket.

    Tuning companies will always have the mindset that they want you to get maximum benefits, but there is no harm in trying alternative routes. Nothing ventured, nothing gained.

    I'll scan some figs in from a magazine in a minute that make for interesting reading.
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  25. warren_S5
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    warren_S5 Moderator Staff Member Moderator VCDS Map User

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    [May 28, 2009]
    [​IMG][​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
    #24
  26. Jamiekip
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    Jamiekip Member

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    [May 28, 2009]
    Mate - I'm not doubting a word your saying, and to be fair, everyone who has had the fuel pump done have said that the mid range punch becomes mind bogglingly fast ;) I thik your the first to add it without doing the CAI and exhaust first though lol

    I'm fascinated that you were told the DP is fine to use in satge 2+ as I was always of the impression the OEM DP is THE weak spot in the OEM system (hence me trying the DP and sports cat on teh stock back box as a bit of a test - which I'm pleased to report works well!!!).

    I got feedback from a certain exhaust manufacturer saying that running the DP only was an untested variable and shouldn't be done.... my view was that of course they will say that... they want someone to spend £1k+ on a full system.

    I like getting bang per $ and it sounds like you're the same - Nothing ventured, nothing gained.... EXACTLY :D
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  27. warren_S5
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    warren_S5 Moderator Staff Member Moderator VCDS Map User

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    [May 28, 2009]
    Now whilst I can appreciate the DP on some models (particularly later ones) could be an issue, in my mind a long running underfuelling is actually a greater issue of concern to me, and one more significantly likely to damage internal valves, head etc... If you were to back the boost off a bit then you shouldn't see such excessive temps should you?

    Problem is that in many cases we rely on what we hear to be the case which comes directly from the manufacturers of the products. Remember there is another point here which relates to either just getting good gains, or actually maximising the gains (eg. the full mod path). Until we see specific cases where things categorically don't work, or where failures occur it is hard to tell if there are any physical side affects, but until them we'll have to wait and see.

    As a side point if anyone in interested in seeing the full installations for HPP installation PM me your e-mail address and I'll send you a 5 page PDF of step by step instructions.
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  28. Iggu
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    Iggu Active Member

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    [May 28, 2009]
    Modifying cars is more about guesswork and chance as it is about science. There are so many of us running different maps, different intakes, different exhausts and different fuel pumps all in different combinations that the only thing which is clear to me is how little anyone actually knows for a fact.

    On a different forum this morning I've seen one of the most experienced "modders" in England describe the "fact" that DSG gearboxes cannot handle as much power as manuals as pure "scaremongering" - and I agree with him. The "facts" are nothing more than accumulated hearsay and group think - nobody really knows.

    Does my downpipe need a sports cat ? Does my back box need a downpipe ? Does my intake need a heatshield ? Does my fuel pump need a new camlobe ? Does my remap need a remap ? Who the hell knows ? Nobody.

    For me - it is precisely this that makes the whole process such fun. Just whack it on your car and see how it feels. If it makes you smile its good. If it doesn't - sell it. Such is the logic of my all-time favourite hobby - modding.
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  29. warren_S5
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    warren_S5 Moderator Staff Member Moderator VCDS Map User

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    [May 28, 2009]
    +1. The ECU provides the nanny state which should keep the major stuff in check. Anything else is trial and error.
    #28
  30. Jamiekip
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    Jamiekip Member

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    [May 28, 2009]
    So very true Iggu - lots of it is hearsay!

    That experienced modder has advised me on my mod's every step of the way - this is all pretty new to me tbh, it's the first car I have gone to town on, so I wanted to know I'm doing the right thing. And when he explains it, given his background and knowledge, it simply makes sense! So there is a degree of science to it :blush:
    Everything I have done has made a postive difference and put a smile on my face and at a fraction of the cost had I just done what I thought I should do!
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  31. JustCharlie
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    JustCharlie Member

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    [May 28, 2009]
    The way I see it is the tfsi engine is a fairly new engine and we are learning all the time what does and doesn't work. The stage 2+ code was written for a fuel pump, intake, and downpipe in mind. Maybe Revo have discovered that it can be run on std parts
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  32. Spin140
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    Spin140 Active Member

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    [May 29, 2009]
    Having read this thread through a couple of time it all makes sense and I now agree that we are all victims of some great marketing and repetitive hearsay, wish I had the same size Gonads then I could have saved myself a few quid, I already had reservations about needing a full system but went with the herd, I will opt for the HPFP as this makes perfect sense as a sensible mod.

    Great debate and food for thought.

    Spin
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  33. Staz
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    Staz is a retronaut Staff Member Moderator VCDS Map User

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    [May 29, 2009]
    Great thread this guys! Given me lots of food for thought.

    How much is the KMD HPFP fitted?
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  34. warren_S5
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    warren_S5 Moderator Staff Member Moderator VCDS Map User

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    [May 29, 2009]
    £310
    #33
  35. warren_S5
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    warren_S5 Moderator Staff Member Moderator VCDS Map User

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    [May 29, 2009]
    Question:

    Given the extremely high exhaust gas temperatures which have driven a requirement for the aftermarket DP / cat, what is the likelihood that the exhaust valves will get absolutely baked and potentially fail earlier?

    I've had to back the boost off slightly today as I'm getting a touch of flutter from the OE valve (sold Forge valve last week doh!!), so am going to tap JKM up for one of the new revision valves from the later cars and see if that can handle boost 9!!
    #34
  36. S3Alex
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    S3Alex Rarely neutral

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    [May 29, 2009]
    I wouldn't say it's short cuts.....I've resisted the urge to fit a CAI until now,and the car has run well apart from the misfire which is still present,and I think is almost certainly injector related,but as it's been datalogged and isn't causing the engine any problems,we've left it for now.

    I'd also not fitted a Sach's clutch,and finally,the stock (LUK) clutch has given up,and I'm having the CAI and clutch fitted next week...so you could say it's inevitable,but in the meantime the car has been fine,and I haven't had to cough up over a grand in the meantime.

    Now....to find some new tyres,roll bars and coil-overs....that should keep me spending for a bit.
    #35
  37. block
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    block Member

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    [May 29, 2009]
    How do you mean flutter from the dv, is that a noise it makes or can you feel it in the car?

    block.
    #36
  38. warren_S5
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    warren_S5 Moderator Staff Member Moderator VCDS Map User

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    [May 30, 2009]
    At full acceleration you can feel a very slight drop off, almost like there the DV is trying to hold boost but the boost pressure is exceeding what the strength of the DV pushrod (I had an Autometer boost gauge in my old Leon and it was invaluable as a 'health-check' utility for your car). You can almost hear there is a little whispery sound where the valve sounds like it can't quite seal under full load (OE early revision valve). I'll take it out this weekend to check the seal. No ill effects otherwise.

    I caught up with Kev last night and I want to reiterate the following:

    1) I will not see the same torque / bhp from my set up as you would with a full on DP/Cat/TBE
    2) This kind of set up would only really be recommended for use in Northern hemisphere climates (cooler)
    3) If you really push your car hard all the time (track days / foot to the floor everywhere you go etc..), go for the full set up. I don't tend to , as most of my mileage is cost based commuting, so as the car will only see a marginal amount of very high performance usage it is an acceptable compromise.

    Now I'm off to do it's weekly wash before it goes for a front end respray on Monday :keule:
    #37
  39. block
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    block Member

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    [May 30, 2009]
    cheers for that,
    i get what i would describe as a rattle snake kind of fluttering hiss on mine at max torque, does that sound like the dv to you? should i be upgrading it? btw im currently running forge intake and giac remap.

    Another thing, what psi boost should a remapped s3 be running, i can check mine through vag com im just not sure what it should be!

    block.
    #38
  40. Iggu
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    Iggu Active Member

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    [May 30, 2009]
    Hi Block. On Vagcom measuring block 115 my Revo Stage 2+ shows sustained boost of 1.5 bar with occasional peaks of 1.6 and 1.7. Revo Stage 1 showed 1.4 and 1.5 pretty steadily throughout the rev range. That was with Milltek full TBE and Forge Intake also.
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  41. block
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    block Member

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    [May 30, 2009]
    cheers for that iggu i'll have to run some tests on mine once i get time.:thumbsup:
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