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Remove recirc valve

Discussion in 'A3/S3 Forum (8L Chassis)' started by marks-krazy-s3, Feb 6, 2010.

  1. marks-krazy-s3
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    marks-krazy-s3 New Member

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    [Feb 6, 2010]
    has anyone removed the recirc valve any advise?
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  3. Westy
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    Westy Double Dark Side! Diesel & 8P

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    [Feb 6, 2010]
    What, removed it to clean? Removed to upgrade?

    It's easy mate, just undo the crappy clips with a pair of pliars (you'll need jubilee clips to replace them) and take the thing off.
    #2
  4. marks-krazy-s3
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    marks-krazy-s3 New Member

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    [Feb 6, 2010]
    sorry mate i mean removed it completely and run the car without it?
    #3
  5. <tuffty/>
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    <tuffty/> Badger 5 Edition Staff Member Moderator

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    [Feb 6, 2010]
    Don't... simples... If you have to ask why then especially don't....

    <tuffty/>
    #4
  6. <tuffty/>
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    <tuffty/> Badger 5 Edition Staff Member Moderator

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    [Feb 6, 2010]
    Recirc is there to dump boost pressure built up in the charge pipe system to prevent compressor stall (aiding performance) which puts a strain on the turbo's shaft and can cause it to snap in two especially on a small turbo like the K03/4

    Recirc if different to a normal dump valve as if dumps the the air back into the intake system (hence recirc) as this air has already been measured by the MAF and dumping this to atmosphere (such as the crappy Spilt-R for example) will cause running problems on the engine.

    If you still want to remove it I would advise selling your car and buying a car without a turbo as it will be less expensive to repair when you blow it up :)

    <tuffty/>
    #5
  7. Prawn
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    Prawn My other car is a MINI!!!!

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    [Feb 6, 2010]
    A little OTT perhaps tufty, although the general point of it is sound enough.

    Removing the recirc won't do THAT much harm to a standard car.

    The reality is, that outside of enthusiast ownership, just about every A3 and S3 in the country it running with a split DV that's not actually doing any recirc-ing at all. the majority of these can be problem free for many many thousands of miles.

    I'm not saying it's a good idea at all, we all know it's not. But if you insist on wanting to remove it, to gain that daft 'wastegate' sound people so wrongly call it, then who are we to stop you?
    #6
  8. <tuffty/>
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    <tuffty/> Badger 5 Edition Staff Member Moderator

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    [Feb 6, 2010]
    I don't think so... removing the DV serves no purpose.... The fact you even suggest it won't do 'THAT' much harm suggests you accept the possibility it will...

    Sorry if I am coming across a little harsh but I have seen too many cars that have been 'modified' to the point they don't run right or even at all by people who just don't have a clue.... Any mod that isn't compensated by changes to ECU software in someway (when it can't compensate for itself that is) is not a good thing to do as it serves no purpose at all...

    Air within the charge system is travelling at a fairly high speed and is also under pressure... closing off the throttle valve gives this no where to go and will stall the compressor wheel causing stress on the compressor shaft which is particularly small...

    Removing the DV does nothing but reduce the reliabilty of the engine... so why do it...

    Any BOV/Atmos type DV replacement is at best pointless and at worse it will just make the car run badly... the ECU has already calculated the fuel required for the air it has measured through the MAF... If some of the measured air is bleed to the atmosphere then the engine will run rich... while this may not cause any immediate problems, it can cause misfires and such in extreme cases...

    Soz to bang on but the DV is there for a reason, its a closed system designed to run using a recirculation valve... DV's and BOV's are there to protect the turbo....

    <tuffty/>
    #7
  9. Broken Byzan
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    Broken Byzan Photographic Moderator Staff Member Moderator VCDS Map User

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    [Feb 6, 2010]
    I suppose even a BOV will vent the air somewhere to prevent compressor stall, remove it completly and its 2 part shaft time simples

    Removing it is turbo suicide IMHO

    #8
  10. marks-krazy-s3
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    marks-krazy-s3 New Member

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    [Feb 6, 2010]
    wow that is exactly what i said to my mate who has been banging on about the recirc valve removale will enhance the sound of the wastegte , but my argument was that it is there for a reason and removing it may make the wastegate sound louder but will harm the engine if it is not there , thanks for your responses guys that has confirmed my suspicions!
    #9
  11. Westy
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    Westy Double Dark Side! Diesel & 8P

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    [Feb 6, 2010]
    Depends what wastegate sound you're after? BANG is not a sound I'd like to hear :)
    #10
  12. marks-krazy-s3
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    marks-krazy-s3 New Member

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    [Feb 6, 2010]
    lol yh def bang is not a good sound at all !
    #11
  13. MIKE GTR
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    MIKE GTR Member

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    [Feb 7, 2010]
    Are you talking from experience or something someone told you?

    The last part of that sentance, to put it politely is errrr ******! A dump/recirc valve is more of a necessity on a larger turbo, simply because of the larger volumes of air being moved and the greater forces being applied.

    Your Turbo isn't going to blow up the minute you remove a std dump valve, so don't be scared by internet rumour mongerers. However, it is there for a reason and that reason is to aid durability on the turbo and help reduce spool up times - so in escence yes it does serve a purpose and your best bet would be to remove it for an uprated one that actually works (as being std and old yours prob doesn;t).
    #12
  14. badger5
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    badger5 www.badger5.co.uk Site Sponsor

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    [Feb 7, 2010]
    your mate (with all due respect) is ignorent of how things work and his advise is poor
    yes it will make a fluttering sound, cool sound i agree, but when you realise its partly compressor stall and loading on the shaft/bearings is higher, you realise why the manufactuturers fitted them (for reliability)
    BOV will make more woosh, non-functional dv's will cause chatter/flutter noise

    the flutter is inadequate venting of the excess, closed throttle boost.. with dv spool and respool is faster

    advise as already given is dont do it
    your mates an eejit
    #13
  15. Mattfaced
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    Mattfaced Member

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    [Feb 7, 2010]
    I replaced my dv recently, as the old one had a split and was working incorrectly. I worked it out as i could hear the chatter, but i wasnt easy to hear (windows down uphill on a country lane) so really ask yourself whats the point. Also when i replaced my dv i needed a new maf, not sure how the two connect but a broken dv doesnt give for a happy engine.
    #14
  16. Broken Byzan
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    [Feb 7, 2010]
    I am with Tuffty 100% on this. The shafts on Garrets etc on cossie and the like are twice the thickness and are strong enough to hold together without a DV or BOV. The k04 etc have very thin shafts and can snap easily from a high speed stall, FACT !! Not scare mongering as you call it.

    I have heard this from more reliable sources than the interweb. The fact the DV aids spool up and durability is another factor to consider.
    #15
  17. <tuffty/>
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    <tuffty/> Badger 5 Edition Staff Member Moderator

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    [Feb 7, 2010]
    I think it came to me in a vision or something....

    So not any good on a small turbo producing 20psi with a piddly little shaft then? bugger... must let the bloke at VAG know they have had it wrong all these years... maybe they will get in touch for some consultancy work for when they fit a GT35 to an A2

    Plagiaristic contradiction in one paragraph... respect...

    <tuffty/>
    #16
  18. MIKE GTR
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    MIKE GTR Member

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    [Feb 8, 2010]
    [​IMG] Originally Posted by MIKE GTR [​IMG]
    Are you talking from experience or something someone told you?
    I think it came to me in a vision or something....

    Amen to that brother

    [​IMG] Originally Posted by MIKE GTR [​IMG]
    The last part of that sentance, to put it politely is errrr ******! A dump/recirc valve is more of a necessity on a larger turbo, simply because of the larger volumes of air being moved and the greater forces being applied.



    So not any good on a small turbo producing 20psi with a piddly little shaft then? bugger... must let the bloke at VAG know they have had it wrong all these years... maybe they will get in touch for some consultancy work for when they fit a GT35 to an A2

    I had a maram shafted T4 on my old cossie that HAD to have a dump valve, having spoken to the turbo manufactuer at the time he told me what i have stated above

    [​IMG] Originally Posted by MIKE GTR [​IMG]
    Your Turbo isn't going to blow up the minute you remove a std dump valve, so don't be scared by internet rumour mongerers. However, it is there for a reason and that reason is to aid durability on the turbo and help reduce spool up times - so in escence yes it does serve a purpose and your best bet would be to remove it for an uprated one that actually works (as being std and old yours prob doesn;t).



    Plagiaristic contradiction in one paragraph... respect...

    I don't understand the contradiction? I said its not going to blow up immediately if he takes it off, but it does play a role and his best bet would be to buy an new one or uprated one thgat actually works. I know this reading malarky is all new to you but come on, read it correctly.

    My comments weren't on the basis that the dump valve does nothing, it was on the basis that you said "DON'T DO IT COS IT WILL BLOW UP"
    #17
  19. <tuffty/>
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    <tuffty/> Badger 5 Edition Staff Member Moderator

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    [Feb 8, 2010]
    ...same applies to you mate...

    ...I think you will find that if you actually read back through the thread I never actually said those words together...


    right... getting bored with your pedantic non arguments... I clearly haven't a clue what I am on about and I think the OP has enough info here to make a decision...

    <tuffty/>
    #18
  20. MIKE GTR
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    MIKE GTR Member

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    [Feb 8, 2010]
    I think you'll find I replied giving concise reason for each differenece of opinion with you - it wasn't pedantic non argument. You however, replied with sarcasm, to which I replied in the same manner.
    #19
  21. badger5
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    badger5 www.badger5.co.uk Site Sponsor

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    [Feb 8, 2010]
    The DV does do something... as explained.
    Not difficult to comprehend

    I dont recall anyone saying it would break immediately either, "cos it will blow up" blah blah

    ... and comparing T4 garret with a K04 turbo is pretty meaningless.
    stick em side bby side and its quite obvious how the shafts and seals, thrust washers compare.. IE they DONT

    You might know something about your previous Jap cars, but you are showing quite some knowledge gap on VAG 1.8t so far
    #20
  22. MIKE GTR
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    MIKE GTR Member

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    [Feb 8, 2010]

    The blowing up was "IMPLIED"

    The T4 comparison was on the basis of a large MARAM shafted turbo against a small turbo, as the poster had said it was MORE necessary on a smaller turbo such as the K04 - that statement is wrong - it is needed more on a large turbo. However, if what you say is correct about the K04 (and to be honest i somewhat suspect otherwise as turbo failure doesn't seem to be a big issue on high mileage s3's, even those running remaps and higher boost - but i won't argue that point as i don't know from experience) needing to run a dump valve, then surely the advice that I gave - QUOTE "However, it is there for a reason and that reason is to aid durability on the turbo and help reduce spool up times - so in escence yes it does serve a purpose and your best bet would be to remove it for an uprated one that actually works (as being std and old yours prob doesn;t)" is correct, YES?.

    Don't just argue on behalf of your mate, read what I have said

    My experience isn't only of Jap, i've had a variety from a Turbo'd Mk11 astra (using a KKK turbo) an Escort RST (Using GArretts), a Fiesta RST, a Delta Intergrali Evo, Escort Cossie, R33 GTR (Trust) as well as the S3, which has just had a Hyrbrid K04 (damn wish i'd have known how **** they were lol)
    #21
  23. badger5
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    badger5 www.badger5.co.uk Site Sponsor

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    [Feb 8, 2010]
    It simply WRONG tho.
    the op would do well to ignore your advise to remove the DV
    #22
  24. MIKE GTR
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    MIKE GTR Member

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    [Feb 8, 2010]
    Again read what i have writen, i've never said that
    #23
  25. badger5
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    badger5 www.badger5.co.uk Site Sponsor

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    [Feb 8, 2010]
    If you read what I have posted it makes sense... the bearings, thrust washer and shaft will see more loads when the DV is not functional or removed.. a lot more side load applied against the thrust washer for example..
    whichever way you look at it its STUPID to remove it.

    You even say yourself
    so you are full of contradictions fella

    To remove one remains very bad advise, which is what you told the Op to do is it not?

    duh!
    Last edited: Feb 8, 2010
    #24
  26. badger5
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    badger5 www.badger5.co.uk Site Sponsor

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    [Feb 8, 2010]
    yea, just re-read it and you did'nt agreed.
    mixed you up with marks eejit friend.. - lol

    my bad
    Last edited: Feb 8, 2010
    #25
  27. MIKE GTR
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    MIKE GTR Member

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    [Feb 8, 2010]
    Have your read anything I have written? My points were that Tufty was wrong in saying that they are needed more on a small turbo, its larger turbos that generally require them as they move larger volumes of air - fact. Ok you state the K04 is weak, i'll take your word on that, BUT the fact remains its the exception to the rule, you even mentioned yourself that its not as strong as the likes of GArrett (see I read what you write).

    I said removing will not immediaitely blow up your turbo (do we agree on this point?) i said its better to replace it with a new or uprated one that actually works, as his old tired one probably doesn't.

    so, DUH
    #26
  28. <tuffty/>
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    <tuffty/> Badger 5 Edition Staff Member Moderator

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    [Feb 8, 2010]
    The statement was in relation to the fragility of the K04 as opposed to small v large turbos in general... while I concede this may not have been clear, my statement stands... fragile turbos (small or otherwise) are more likely to suffer a failure brought on by an inadequate or non existant means of relieving charge pressure...

    <tuffty/>
    #27
  29. badger5
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    [Feb 8, 2010]
    side by side comparison of T4 and K04 will show relative shaft sizes, compressor wheel sizes and turbines.. night and day different in many respects

    I am not making, nor have made any case for smaller unit needing a DV any more than a larger one, one is smaller shaft with less inertia, one is significantly larger with more inetia, which without DV aiding the throttle shut, pressure spike/comp stall, is high wear on both units respectively.

    DV's are fitted these days to aid reliability. Its fact that without, the units will not last as long for the reasons mentioned

    Fitting a DV which can cope with the duty better is always a good thing. forge piston ones are popular, but functional factory ones, whilst working also do the job ok. (they're just prone to splitting their rubber diaphragm)

    What K04 hybrid did you go for on your S3?
    #28
  30. MIKE GTR
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    MIKE GTR Member

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    [Feb 8, 2010]
    FAir enough, but my reply was in reponse to this QUOTE "which puts a strain on the turbo's shaft and can cause it to snap in two especially on a small turbo like the K03/4"

    for which I have been refered to as plageristic, naieve and pedantic lol.

    If I remember one statement told to me during an assembly at school it is this "A little bot of knowledge is a dangerous thing" and while I too at times may be responsible for giving out info when i'm not fully aware of the facts or have not had personal experience, it really does irritate me when the internet spouts rumours that are sometimes far from correct.

    This isn't a personal dig, i'm sure i'll need help on some aspect of my car at some point and at no point do i want to alianate the community that could help. Maybe i was a little sarcastic at times and perhaps i shouldn't have used the phrase "******" lol, but hey we all like to get our point across
    #29
  31. <tuffty/>
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    <tuffty/> Badger 5 Edition Staff Member Moderator

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    [Feb 8, 2010]
    word....

    <tuffty/>
    #30
  32. MIKE GTR
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    MIKE GTR Member

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    [Feb 8, 2010]
    I didn't say you had, you pounced on me for saying that you needed them on the likes of a T4 but not on a K04 (i never said anything even remote to this), my comparision was purely on size.

    ONce again!! I have never said take the DV off!!!!!! I have simply said replace it for one that works.

    I have no idea what spec the hybrid is, my engine tuner sent it off for me and arranged for larger compressor - i'll have to find out actually as it would be good to know
    #31
  33. Broken Byzan
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    Broken Byzan Photographic Moderator Staff Member Moderator VCDS Map User

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    [Feb 8, 2010]
    Which Eejit friend, i have loads. LMAO
    :icon_thumright:
    #32
  34. badger5
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    badger5 www.badger5.co.uk Site Sponsor

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    [Feb 8, 2010]
    marks-crazy-s3 friend

    :)
    #33
  35. badger5
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    badger5 www.badger5.co.uk Site Sponsor

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    [Feb 8, 2010]
    who was that?
    turbo supplier that is..

    did you find it made a difference?
    #34
  36. Alex C
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    Alex C Well-Known Member

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    [Feb 8, 2010]
    Are you following all this mark? :)
    #35
  37. MIKE GTR
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    MIKE GTR Member

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    [Feb 8, 2010]
    Vince at mmmmmm Universal turbos (i think), don't quote me on that though - Not sure about the difference, i get it back today and will prob get the map updated before i give it a good hiding
    #36
  38. badger5
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    [Feb 8, 2010]
    be a handy comparison if you had before and after MAF logs, request vs actual boost, etc
    do you have vagcom?
    #37
  39. MIKE GTR
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    MIKE GTR Member

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    [Feb 8, 2010]
    Afraid I don't have anything like that, the only reason the turbo got done was because my cambelt snapped and took out 20 valves and 4 pistons, there was a little bit of oil in the turbo and some slight play but through my contacts I managed to get it reconditioned and hybridized for a very good price, so it was worth doing while it was off.

    The S3 is my everyday car, I bought it last dec with only 38k on it and with the intention that it wouldn't cost me anything, I wasn't interested in it being fast or not, but it came with a few bits already on (although it was still gutless) - The skyline has taken longer than expected so its been nice driving this about as its not too chav and not too poncy
    #38

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