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Discussion in 'A3/S3 Forum (8L Chassis)' started by Reesy, Dec 1, 2011.
Its not of importance to me fella......... its your car/engine... and what is being said is being said & advised is for your benefit
email tuning has its risks.... to both parties
Ask Dan what he wants logged... he's the one making adjustments the other end
I know that, and obviously I am grateful of the help even if the technical side bypassed me once we got past turning the egt off!
Email tuning does have it's risks, but I would say less so then your man in a van flashing the map on and away you go. Even more reputable tuners get them horribly wrong (Westy's first map that killed the turbo for example)
I hope that anyone reading this doesn't doubt the ability of Dan, as I think it's obvious to all that he is pretty clued up at this malarky. If I could sort out another car, I'd let him have this for a couple of days which would mean all the issues could be sorted, but as I can't, emailing is the only way.
I have a set of basic blocks I will log for Dan, but wondered if any of the K's had specific blocks that needed measuring to make them easier to tweak.
I know Dan makes sure the receiver is made well aware of any risk before a map is even thought about being put on...and always asks for logs before it is stepped up....Reesys has been a bit more difficult for various reasons...
Mainly my impatience and lack of logs due to my laptop being spazzy this week.
Oh and the narrowband/wideband issue.
I think this has been a first in 8L (and maybe even ASN as a whole) where there has been an active discussion about mapping at a level that is not normally seen... we all go on about tweaking fuel and capping boost and other random stuff but in context of the project I think this is fairly unique...
Mapping is still something that can't be taken on lightly and its more than adding some values in a table but its generating an interesting discussion thats at a whole new level and makes welcome change from having to put a n00b straight about why he shouldn't be using a split-r!!
man in a van merely installs typically someone else's code, be they an agency or just some **** dragged or ripped off someone else and resold as their own... whatever.. What you dont get is the knowledgeable diagnosis on the car from such a typical service.. These cars are old.. and often buggered already. Yours is a pick n mix of parts which brings its own issues..
Your impatience for getting it going on dyno, loaded up hard, worries me.. CALM DOWN yourself - lol
Dan will get on top of it, but I dont envy him the task doing it by email and whatever logs you do and send back.
Dave... For whatever reason one of these maps has in fact done the reverse of what you say... Started high and then worked back. sight unseen its no wonder, you cannot beat seeing the car in front of you... and being run by someone "experienced and competant" in what they should be looking for. This is not meant as any slight on anyone before they get all fecking huffy about it.. Just stating what to me seems the bleeding obvious.
Reesy, as said before, check with Dan what he wants logged.. is vagcom all you have? the nef logger would no doubt help out for more log info if you are able to do this (hardware, cable etc etc)
Agreed, like said Reesys seems to be a one off.....
Stop being impatient Mr Reesy...
I do find this mapping mallarky very interesting indeed, just wish i could get my head around it....
tabbgts on the s3 map I used was set to 919 degrees as under normal instances with the egt functioning it follows the egt model for fuelling . Also on an EGT s3 Kflbts, the AFR map for protection was 1 across the board so even when it reach the threshold it still only ran at 14.7.
Where as on non egt maps ie the HN/HJ the Kflbts is set to increase fuelling , depending on rpm and load when the threshold is passed in this case 399 degrees it does this upto a max of .75 (load 191/rpm 6500+). Which on this car with no egt is the model needed.
Also this is under the assumption that stock fuelling on the injectors can meet 0.75! Which I very much doubt it can achieve and hence why it glowed !
Mine has had fortunes spent on it, and having just had the engine put it, everything has been checked over and changed before putting any sorts of power through it. Much the same as I wouldn't stick a map on the old setup until the cambelt was done. Also the reason why I have put better brakes and suspension on it before going for more power. I am not in this to get it fast and not worry about it blowing up.
I didn't actually want to dyno it and had no plans to. The opportunity arose as Ben was heading down their anyway and I thought Why Not..
I only have VCDS unfortunately, although I would not be averse to getting something that would get more info back.
This lot works well
Logging ME7 fast and flexible => ME7Logger
GUI for ME7Logger
money spent on it is'nt relevant is it..
you did'nt want to stick it on the dyno but you did.. and posted a nice video of its glowing.. hehe
I guess you got logs whilst on the dyno? maybe? moot point if the maps already been changed for something less "boosty"
follow tufftys links for nef logger.. dan uses it and can guide you thru it if he wants that level of logging done
Dave: much information on me7 stuff in nefmoto, not necessarily joined up information, but some gems in there if you can pick them out.
It takes more than a laptop and some software to know how to tune engines... as is very apparent from the 1000's of shyte ones folks are driving around with, unknowingly
I tried this in his car when I saw it last, but with most of the cars i've tried it on it bombs out unless you have a clean K-line from the ECU. I know on my S3 I had to run a clean wire from the ecu and use a 3 way switch on the OBD port to switch it on and off, its a shame as if it worked all the time everytime it would be great. Me7logger is definately the dogs B's, jsut a shame it doesn't pay ball on Chris's car.
lambda probe location will influence the TABGBTS threshold... its different between different wideband k03s cars, which relates to relative lambda probe position as far as I can tell. logging lambda temp, and its reference is what I think me7 is using... hence the different locations of lambdas and the different TABGBTS temps
BUT.... on S3 map like you used and tufftys for example, the 920'c threshold does something else... and does not use KFLBTS map at all (which as its set to all 1's) so a.n.other map/correction clearly takes over the fuel dump job.. lambda control during this process switches off completely, and it looks to be a staged % adder with temp which goes on.. Fuel dumping (IF) there is sufficient fueling left (read are the injectors max'd out on duty cycle already and is pump keeping up etc)
Haha i dont intend to do tuning (got enough on my plate) just interested in the process thats all, and try to understand all the different values....
Your safe for now Bill....
Are you refering to FBSTABGM? this again was set to a factor of 1 above 800 degrees.
Money spent on it is irrelevant, but the implication that 'These cars are old.. and often buggered already' is one that doesn't really apply here, as it was all checked over. I didn't just buy the car and decide to stick a k04 in it, nor did I just leave the 19mm engine in and say 'it'll be alright..'
As posted yesterday, looks like you did the same video's with Welly's car.
We stopped doing anymore dyno runs as it was obvious the car was too hot. The video was posted by Ben (Pretty sure you've dealt with him before).
No logging was taken as my laptop wouldn't load up and Ben didn't have his. Since then, the boost has been turned down and a 4bar has been added to aid fuelling (this is under the assumption that the previous logs were correct and the fuel pump can keep up). This will be verified tomorrow, and if the hardware I have can't keep up at the current power the car is making, it will be de tuned until the relevant hardware can be bought..
That table is a progressive enrichment factor from what I under stand as part of the AMK/BAM egt modelling... I have not used it myself as I tune BTS and LAMFA to what I want but if using the ME7.5 models I think that table is supposed to be used to make the AFR richer based on actual EGTs as the temp rises so reactive rather than proactive like for example the APY style BTS map I posted earlier...
The modelling in the AMK/BAM maps seem to try and keep it as near lambda 1 as it can for as long as its possible with far more built in protection/modelling maps as things get hot or out of shape...
I would think the correct way to tune that map would be get it to make the AFR richer as EGTs rise... not a table I have checked myself as yet but can see why its used..
ahh my brain melts a little every time i look at this thread with all the ymca's and 123's, its like everyone is talking robot..
... just looked at the settings on mine and its 1 for 860 and 900 deg... hummm... not much enrichment happening there then lol
I am pretty sure this isn't the same as the fuel dump normally seen when TABGSS is hit... when this occurs lambda compensation is switched off and the ECU goes mental with fuel...
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Tbh, the glowing mani looks similar to 'Toby' who achieved 300bhp on a k04 agu golf. Mapped by niki @ r-tech.
This pic is of my skyline when it was bone stock. Hard 15mins drive in the daytime! lol
From reading FR FBSTABGM is from TABGTS and on the 032HN interestingly is set at .050 at 920degrees and 1.01 at 940degrees. DO you know if this is factor of the lambda at that time?
Also have you tried or looked at changing TLAFA? it s the time delay for actiavtion lambda demand? it's set for 1 second which in my mind is quite a long time when running on a tuned car?
I dont know what map if its an available map does the actual fuel dump... the factor thing looks by description to be what you might expect it to do but the values it has dont correlate to what it actually does.. factor of 1 vs zero's before then..
It's probably enriching through KFLAMKR, Dan have you seen this:
Opinions: using KFLBTS vs LAMFA for fuel all the time?
It's a long topic but has lot's of info here!!!
I'm not sure that 1sec is lambda response time.. it does'nt seem to match the live data update rate when logging with nef.. much quicker.
not ever adjusted it myself.
I have slugged lambda response on a couple of cars but just with unisettings
several to choose from..
Yes I read a while back and at the time had nothing to relate it to, but now I think I will re read it, as I think it could be very relevant, thanks for the info...
There are one topic that has info about fueling with the KFLAMKR in nefmoto, I've seen that but I don't know if it's the one in the link...
I can't find KFLAMKR in the APY ECU so I tune fuel with LAMFA and BTS function!
Good news over the weekend.
Did some logging and the results were positive.
Car is meeting what it needs to meet, getting a good g/s reading and running nicely.
Think the car needs a new N75 though as it is overshooting the boost a bit.
Pulling a lot of timing dude...
That was the only issue we could detect, but isn't it within safe limits if I had to use **** fuel? Also, that was after a few heavy runs on a day when ambient was about 30degrees (not sure if the latter makes any difference).
Would you agree it looks like it needs an N75? Once that is sorted the timing and other values can be reassessed as at the moment it is boosting more then the map wants it to, about 24psi.
Well its already pulling 6's, and thats presumably on good fuel...
Yes, it's on V-Power 90% of the time, if not momentum or £10 of 97 to get me to a shell garage..
Eek, 7.5's! Scary stuff.....
Seems odd that it's pulling 6's and 7's when from the other log, it appears to be fairly rich at 11:1 AFR
Here's open for another discussion.
Assuming you use good fuel then Timing pull around 3-6 is surely a good figure, this is based on runs taken on the hotest day of the year and after a few runs. Higher than normal temps, are all going to add to higher timing pull. Considering the CF goes from 0-12 where 0 indicates no timing pull and 12 is the max from which above the knock is going to occur.
In an ideal world then yes I agree a timing pull of 3 will always be ideal, but then if you get a really cold day timing pull could drop to 0 and thus you may not be at max timing, and even at running a max of 6 then there is plenty of room for warmer days and sh*t fuel..
You may all go ooooooo but the Cupra R I had for a week, which was mapped by a well know company in near to me in woking, had stock timing maps on a stage 2 and it, when I logged it ran 10's. through over 60% of the log.. and this is from a respected company!!........
I can only imagine comments, like " timing pull is there for a reason, the engines protected, whats the issue?" becuase i've seen comments like that on other forums...
I agree it's a little high in places, and it is something that I mentioned to Chris that would be addressed, and I would also be interested to see on the 1st run of the day, when the weathers a bit cooler and the engine hasn't had huge amounts of heat soak what they are then, because if they where around 3 consistanly then it would be perfect. You can't unfortunately run optimal timing all the time there has to be a comprise..
What's anyone else's thoughts?
its a tricky one, on the one hand as you say, running 6's means the timing is always maxed out, on the other it gives little scope if he does happen to fill it with 95 octane because hes stuck, and its a hot day, and he decides to do a 4th gear pull for whatever reason.
We logged my brothers S4 recently, stage 1 map, Tesco99, warm day with IAT hitting 50c at the end of the 3rd gear pull, and its timing pull was no higher than 4CF, which seemed acceptable to me.
I guess its all about the balance. Ideally you want it *just* pulling timing on a cool day with the best fuel, which then gives the management plenty of room to pull more should it get hotter or end up stuck with a tankful of 95.
There are other reasons for timing pull to occur... timing pull like this is most likely from oil getting into the engine from either rings (heavy breathing is a sign) and/or the turbo seals (oil in the TB is a sign of this)
See it all too often on older cars... even ones with 'low mileage'
Right. Hopefully picking up a new N75 and some drop links tonight, to sort my overboosting and hopefully sort the clunk I have had for the last month.
With regards to trying to eliminate as much as possible, the PCV delete is the next thing on the list. I will not bother going with a catch can, both Welly and Tuffty vent straight out without any issues so I can't see their being a problem on mine.
What would be needed in order to do that, a 19mm T piece and some 19mm pipe?
I know Westy made a thread but that's for the people using a catch can.
Yeh, 19mm pipe and t-piece, and some jubilee clips