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Question about smf and dmf!

Discussion in 'A4/A4 cabriolet/S4 forum(B6 chassis)' started by mattyb6, Apr 21, 2013.

  1. mattyb6
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    mattyb6 Active Member

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    [Apr 21, 2013]
    As some of you may know I fitted a single mass flywheel to my 1.9tdi 5speed last week.
    i want to go back to dual mass.

    my new clutch has done 200mile, would I be able to keep this clutch and just buy a DMF or do I need all new clutch kit and DMF?
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  3. Audi Doodah
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    Audi Doodah Active Member

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    [Apr 21, 2013]
    As you know, I'm on the hunt for a new clutch and flywheel too. Been researching all day and it appears OE Luk clutches can be fitted to OE Sachs DMF and vice versa. For your AWX you have the choice of both brands of DMF but the Sachs is more expensive. I can only get Luk DMF for my AVF six speed so I'm going for a Luk clutch too. Read a few reports of Luk clutches being capable of handling more torque, too. Even came across a post where someone had purchased a Sachs clutch kit but the friction plate was made by Luk so it appears Sachs are out-sourcing nowadays.
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  4. mattyb6
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    mattyb6 Active Member

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    [Apr 21, 2013]
    I don't know what clutch the garage put in for me I'm afraid, don't know any branding.
    i know eurocarparts do a full kit for £400 inc dmf and clutch.

    if I find out its a luk or Sachs il order the same brand dmf to replace the smf.
    but although you say they swappable it dosent say between single and dual? Or have I not read it right lol
    the oem clutches are luk. So if you bought that you know it will cope. There's people with 180bhp on oem clutches. So they can handle it, it's all down to age.

    il have to dig through receipts tomorrow and find out, an maybe make some phone calls
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  5. Audi Doodah
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    Audi Doodah Active Member

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    [Apr 21, 2013]
    You have a point there. Was it a clutch and smf conversion kit that was fitted? Not 100% on this but because a dmf has damping properties then the stock clutches don't damp as much as a clutch designed to fit a smf (no damping properties). Could be a factor in your **** driving experience. Don't forget clutches need to 'bed-in' too.

    Safest bet is to buy a dmf & clutch kit, like you say. Would be interested to find out what has been fitted.
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  6. mattyb6
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    mattyb6 Active Member

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    [Apr 22, 2013]
    I think after my timing belt Etc gets done il just purchase new dmf and clutch together.
    like you said about damping properties, I don't know how dmf work, I know how smf work.
    but the car totally different, I like driving well I did until now. The vibrations and noise make me think the gearbox is going to give in.
    it feels like its putting a lot of strain on the box, mounts cv joints etc. when the car is still and you lift the clutch to start moving the vibration moves items in the car.
    more than a 1000e sub woofer haha
    plus I'm looking to get a remap. The extra torque would tear a mount out or make me tear my hair out!!
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  7. Ollie-B
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    Ollie-B Rockin' Shnit

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    [Apr 22, 2013]
    Does nobody make an uprated dmf and clutch for a4s? How are you meant to get big power though oem gear?
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  8. Audi Doodah
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    Audi Doodah Active Member

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    [Apr 22, 2013]
    It's the clutches that take the hit. Sachs do an SRE organic one but that's over 500 quid. Most of the performance shops sell organic one made by Black Diamond at approx £280-£300 for a 6 speed a4 but there's too little info about on them for me to think they're worth it. They claim up 25% increase on stock power ie 230lb-ft to 290lb-ft (310nm to 390nm) but some reckon LUK OE clutches are good 300lb-ft whereas Sachs are around 260lb-ft. My blacksmoke remap gives me around 290lb-ft so I'm leaning to LUK.

    As you say Matty, some are running 180bhp without problems. The trade off, I think, is reduced clutch life.
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  9. dualmono21
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    dualmono21 Well-Known Member

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    [Apr 22, 2013]
    i fitted a luk single mass flywheel conversion kit in my seat leon cupra and its been fantastic
    doing the same on a diesel may well leave the car with lots more vibration
    the conversions have an extra long throw on the slave cylinder to account for the differance between the single mass and dual mass
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  10. mattyb6
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    mattyb6 Active Member

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    [Apr 22, 2013]
    If anyone is running a remap, I think you should buy the best dual mass one available, or just buy good uprated clutche and separate dual mass. Then you know you should be able to achieve 200bhp and not worry about the clutch.

    im in a funny situation, so I'm going to but new DMF and clutch and if my current clutch fits il use that an send the brand new one back ;)
    saving me some coin.

    I don't think you need an up rated DMF, maybe Jut have to replace sooner if you got a lot of power, but still use a better clutch ollie.
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  11. Ollie-B
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    Ollie-B Rockin' Shnit

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    [Apr 22, 2013]
    If you dont need to uprate your dmf why do people fit smf and gain idle chatter if standard dmf is ok?
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  12. mattyb6
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    mattyb6 Active Member

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    [Apr 22, 2013]
    I suppose, llol anyway I've been up the garage today and I'm getting a full dmf replacement Sachs clutch kit all new for very cheap :) due to favours they owe me ;)

    £240 to remove smf and fit new dmf.
    So over the moon with that :)


    LESSON LEARNT! There's a reason they're fitted with dual mass!! Haha
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  13. Audi Doodah
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    Audi Doodah Active Member

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    [Apr 22, 2013]
    Cost is the reason, I think. DMF involves moving parts that can break. SMF is just a machined piece of steel. SMFs are a favourite with taxi drivers because it's easier to keep running costs down. £250-£300 for a new clutch or £700-£800 for clutch and DMF. Obviously, the flywheel may not always need replacing but why fit a new clutch to worn flywheel?

    Good price, Matty! Happy with that. Mines going in Wednesday at a cost of £740!
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  14. mattyb6
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    mattyb6 Active Member

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    [Apr 22, 2013]
    Well mine has cost a total of £650 as of next week. So only £90 cheaper

    im pleased in a way but sick il not have the car another day :(

    My uncle who owns the garage said he's fitted loads of smf due to that reason, you won't need to change the solid flywheel every time.

    but I'm getting a Sachs clutch in which will hopefully last till over the 300k mile mark :)
    So I see it as an investment lol
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  15. mrtinx
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    mrtinx 4 to the floor

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    [Jun 29, 2013]
    :sm4: interesting reading , I hear so many different tails about SMF and DMF . whats the average life of a DMF in an A4 1.9tdi 130pd ???
    Last edited: Jun 29, 2013
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  16. Audi Doodah
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    Audi Doodah Active Member

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    [Jun 29, 2013]
    Generally speaking, it's more the life of the clutch. If a DMF fails it tends to 'lock' and act a bit like a SMF and people don't tend to notice until the clutch goes and it's replaced.

    A clutch would be expected to last 80K plus but it all depends on driving style and the power being transferred. Mine was on 147k when it went, 6 weeks after having a remap.

    Tell tale signs of wear for the clutch...high pedal and sometimes notchy gear changes. A imminent failure will show with max throttle in 4th-6th at low speeds...revs increase but speed doesn't = slipping! For the DMF, a judder or rocking at idle that lessens with the clutch pedal pressed.
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  17. mattyb6
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    mattyb6 Active Member

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    [Jun 29, 2013]
    I ended up with the single. Now although this a cheaper, and stronger, lighter too, it give a bad judder when pulling away in 1st/ reverse.
    once your away its gone, and drives like a dmf. power delivery seems more instant than dmf.

    My original luk DMF last 165k roughly. It never had a hard life. There's a reason there DMF so I'd advise to stick with it unless funds says no. I'm saving to get a DMF put back in. As if I can get another 165k it's paid for its self. While single mass il be looking at 80-100k
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  18. mrtinx
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    mrtinx 4 to the floor

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    [Jun 29, 2013]
    Yeah great info thanks , I dont have any symptoms as yet but I have only put 500miles on it since purchase, it was reading 112,000 when I got it.
    I intend to do filters and oil, coolant and cam belt.
    Is the water pump an essential replacement ??
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  19. Audi Doodah
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    Audi Doodah Active Member

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    [Jun 29, 2013]
    It'd be daft not to! Can't put a price on peace of mind
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  20. mrtinx
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    mrtinx 4 to the floor

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    [Jun 29, 2013]
    Wicked , thanks
    its only my second Audi , first one was years ago and old 5cylinder GT , great car but my real passion at that time was mk2 scirroco's
    so it went
    do you know the average price for one by chance
    #19
  21. Audi Doodah
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    Audi Doodah Active Member

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    [Jun 29, 2013]
    £30-£40
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  22. mrtinx
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    mrtinx 4 to the floor

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    [Jun 29, 2013]
    Yep cheap piece of mind thanks again.
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