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Problems with Revo

Discussion in 'A3/S3 Forum (8L Chassis)' started by RSAudi, Jul 24, 2003.

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  1. Banwell
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    Banwell previously LeeS3

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    [Jul 29, 2003]
    Come on guys (and Gals!) think about this seriously. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/goofy.gif

    You have a 5hr trial. It takes 30 minutes to set up and reprogram the ECU (30 minutes people!). As far as I know ( and correct me if I am wrong) that's the last the tuner sees of your car. So you drive around for 5hrs using the well tried and tested REVO settings - which all seem happy with (which is fine & not in dispute). But what happens when the trial ends? Are you seriously telling me there's enough room and computing facilities on the ECU to reset itself to factory standard at the end of the 5hrs??? I think not. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cry.gif

    What seems much more plausible is that the ECU is some how limited ie. a torque limiter. After all I don't believe the car shuts down and reprograms itself (which I am assuming would take another 30 mins) so how does it suddenly go back to factory settings?

    Again this is my opinion and view only and I have only common sense to back me up.
    #41
  2. bjacks
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    bjacks Member

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    [Jul 29, 2003]
    Lee,

    You can switch programs with the Revo dongle in a matter of seconds. The 30 minutes you are referring to was twice as long as the whole process I went through which involved retreiving ECU model, removing a fuse for the dash display, uploading all the code needed for SPS3, showing how the security works etc etc. And I was one of the first that Ian from Powermap did so I reckon he probably can do it quicker than that now /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

    It's Superchips Bluefin thingy that takes 2o minutes to swap code!

    #42
  3. silvers3uk
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    silvers3uk Up North

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    [Jul 29, 2003]
    This is a copynpaste of email from Seatcupra.net where one of the Revo boys says:

    [ QUOTE ]

    The Revo trial will completely dissappear apart from one piece which does not affect the performance, the only piece that remains is the part we use in our own software that allows trial software to be written only once to any given ECU.
    For the people who suspect their cars are running less power or slower than before the Revo trial program, the best solution would be to return to any Revo dealer and have the ECU completely over-ridden and programmed with the original stock code. If the car remains with a loss of power then we can assume a hardware issue.


    [/ QUOTE ]

    #43
  4. Mo-S3
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    Mo-S3 Member

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    [Jul 29, 2003]
    If such is the case that the REVO code is leaving a bug in the ecu's original software then why havent more people come forward and kicked up a fuss?? So far i have only heard of one person ( Doolan ) to complain about the trial. And listening to how many people are trying this 5 hour trial is enormous !
    Common sense tells 'me' that there cant be a fault in the code coz if there were then the same code written to Doolans car would be written to many others going for the trial from that dealer !!
    REVO would be up s**t creek without a paddle if all this hearsay about a 'c**p' trial code was true.
    Yes i agree that once the trial is over ur car will feel slower which is natural coz u have adjusted to the extra performance ur car is giving out. Trust me i know how stock feels compared to low/high boost.
    And before anyone chirps in and complains im being biast, im NOT, its down to common sense and understanding how things work.
    The guys or gals at REVO have written a serious piece of software for our OBD cars and no doubt invested many man hours and £££££'s into perfecting it. Needless to say and as with any tuner, blown engines too in order to get to a final product.
    We can all speculate as much as we like as to what went on with this guys car but unless he comes back and tells us exactly what happened to his car and what parts, if any, were replaced then once again its pure hearsay. !!
    Maybe he just felt his car is slower after his trial ended and thought that the stock mode that it had reverted back to was not right and this other tuner got their 5 cents worth and told him a load of bull.

    Rant over....Phew /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beerchug.gif

    Edited for swearing
    #44
  5. MushroomMan
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    MushroomMan Sucemabite

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    [Jul 29, 2003]
    Nice rant MO-S3, even if a little profane in parts.

    It's certainly true that once reverting to stock after having enjoyed the thrill and turbo boost of a fully extendable 280lbs/ft, one inevitably experiences a period of post-coilpack tristesse, exacerbated by an irrational sense of one's physical loss and sometimes even outbursts of uncontrolled anger.

    It will soon pass as the normality of our mundane non-chipped existence resumes, and with it the ennui, the interminable waiting for the knock upon the door, the grim reaper, the tedium.

    #45
  6. Mo-S3
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    Mo-S3 Member

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    [Jul 29, 2003]
    Well im glad that my 'profane' bits have been clarified by ur reply. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/lol.gif
    #46
  7. Gambba
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    Gambba Active Member

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    [Jul 29, 2003]
    Lees3, What torque limiter, as already expressed by somebody the A3/S3 does not have a menas for monotoring torque, so how can it limit it?! Regarding your comment about the amount of memory the ECU has, well that's dependent on the capacity that Audi have allowed, REVO probably does not have a completely seperate program in there, just addons to the original, which is pretty much how the dongle works I'm assuming.

    MO, I completely agree with you.
    #47
  8. RichA3Turbo
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    RichA3Turbo ...Watching you! Staff Member Moderator

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    [Jul 29, 2003]
    [ QUOTE ]
    Gambba said:
    Lees3, What torque limiter, as already expressed by somebody the A3/S3 does not have a menas for monotoring torque, so how can it limit it?! Regarding your comment about the amount of memory the ECU has, well that's dependent on the capacity that Audi have allowed, REVO probably does not have a completely seperate program in there, just addons to the original, which is pretty much how the dongle works I'm assuming.

    MO, I completely agree with you.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    I think when people are saying torque limiter, they are saying that the map has been edited so that it performs less well than standard (changed fuelling, boost .etc) so that it runs slower than before..
    #48
  9. Banwell
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    Banwell previously LeeS3

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    [Jul 29, 2003]
    I've already said that my opinion is only based on common sense. (which isn't usually my strong point but,.)

    Considering these trials (only)
    If it takes half an hour to reprog the ecu over the serial port how can it be changed back - completely to original in a matter of seconds? I admit that switching your boost, etc, can be done on the fly with dongle - but that's massaging (or tweaking the levels of) the exsisting reprogam. A complete removal of the 'adjusted program' (ie when trial has ended) implys that the 'OEM factory program and parameters' are stored intact and are still on the chip.

    I don't think VAG would be over speccing the ECUs so that two complete programs can be stored and switched between. Not when the car's produced with one as standard.

    As and aside on serial reprogramming..
    I believe that some tuners are now offering to download your ecu prior to serial port programming, so that should you need to return to normal setting you have the stored program to reflash the ECU at will. This to me seems more realistic. Ie. a bit like putting your pc back to factory spec with a recovery cd. Only the recovery cd is made by the tuner prior to modification. I am assuming this would be the reverse of the installing the modified tune and take approx 30 mins.

    #49
  10. AL_B
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    AL_B Active Member

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    [Jul 29, 2003]
    Lee,

    Everything I have read about REVO seems to suggest loading up their code/sofware for the first time only takes 10-15 mins. Obviously, if there are complications, whatever they might be, it could take longer.

    I have a theory. Based on what I've read on various forums, and some limited assembly language programming I did at UNI....

    <Theory>

    I think what REVO (and other potential serial port tuners) are doing is adding extra information onto your ECU, specifically the EPROM chip that holds the various data tables that influence how your car performs. I think we can all probably say that's a fair assumption.

    Now, a chip is just a block of memory which could contain some form of low-level computer code (assembly language) or blocks of data (which we could call tables). That EPROM may have some extra space on it, and maybe REVO (or APR eventually) are loading up a few extra tables of data. Perhaps its this load-up which takes the time. Perhaps the ODBII port has a low data transfer rate?

    As we know, the ECU in your car runs the car. It controls everything, fueling, timing etc. Probably loads of other stuff - I'm no expert. Lets call this the "Main_program". When you start your car, its quite likely the "Main_program" reads in data from a number of data blocks or tables. Each block of memory will have an address on the chip. So in order to change programs, all the dongle would have to do is change the where "Main_program" looks for its tables. Rather than reading data from the OEM tables, it will read it from REVO/APR tables. It will probably do this by firstly saving the memory addresses that "Main_program" is originally pointing to, to a temporary table. Then overwrite the orginal memory address pointers to point to the REVO/APR tables. When you switch back to stock, it will do the reverse.

    </Theory>

    Any computer programmer will know what I'm on about. Whether I'm right or not is a different matter. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

    There is a hole in my theory though, how come the dongles work on any VAG car? E.g. an SPS3 used to set timing etc on a Golf, could be used to adjust timing etc. on a S3. That would imply the addresses for the tables are the same, unless dongle has some intelligence built-in.

    There's also another hole. If just the address pointers to the data tables are changed, when you revert back to stock in my theory, you should actually be running your original stock program.

    Perhaps what REVO do is completely re-flash your EPROM with:
    a) a standard OEM map (perhaps that's why they need your ECU number, so they get the right map)
    b) extra performance tables

    Anyway, that's my 2p. All theoretical and not from experience.

    AL
    #50
  11. RSAudi
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    RSAudi Member

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    [Jul 29, 2003]
    [ QUOTE ]
    Lees3 said:
    Come on guys (and Gals!) think about this seriously. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/goofy.gif

    But what happens when the trial ends? Are you seriously telling me there's enough room and computing facilities on the ECU to reset itself to factory standard at the end of the 5hrs??? I think not. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cry.gif


    [/ QUOTE ]

    Far easier to store two maps in the EEPROM. We are only talking about look up tables of data here. Storing both programs in the EEPROM is a doddle and do not forget that the SPS1 dongle swaps between programs (both already in EEPROM), it does not actually reprogram the ECU.
    #51
  12. RSAudi
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    RSAudi Member

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    [Jul 29, 2003]
    [ QUOTE ]
    audi girl said:
    Jo = Me, Kitty = my car /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

    Don't ask - Kitty was a more useable version of Pussy Galore, but it suits her !!!!

    And I've never named a car before, before you have images of some fussy librarian type !!

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Aaahh I see. My wife keeps asking me to name mine. Audi A3 suits me fine /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif
    #52
  13. RSAudi
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    RSAudi Member

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    [Jul 29, 2003]
    [ QUOTE ]
    Lees3 said:
    Come on guys (and Gals!) think about this seriously. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/goofy.gif

    You have a 5hr trial. It takes 30 minutes to set up and reprogram the ECU (30 minutes people!).

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Forgot to say that my revo trial took about 5 minutes to load into ECU, not 30 mins. Reinforces my suspicions that both maps reside in EEPROM, not a replacement but a supplementary map and and settings
    #53
  14. RizS3
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    RizS3 Member

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    [Jul 29, 2003]
    I`ve kept hush hush.... but heres my theory:-

    Standard ECU - REVO Upload ECU control software (10mins)

    The ECU always retains the original table but now with REVO table controller.

    So all that is changed are the figure variables in the standard table. simple but effective.

    I dont know how the table is written but heres a example...

    Ignition Timing 001000000000
    Fuel Mixture 000000010000
    Boost Timing 001000000001
    Boost Cut off 000000001000
    Overload Boost 001000000000
    Limp Mode 100000000000
    EPC 000000000001
    ESP 000000010000
    ABS 000001000000

    So what i think the SPS dongle does it just adjust the lines to produce more output and power etc......
    So in theory there is no mapping for each mode, just different settings.....

    Like i said just my theory. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush2.gif
    #54
  15. silvers3uk
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    silvers3uk Up North

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    [Jul 29, 2003]
    I think Al B and Riz are onto it here. Bearing in mind the Bosch ECU is a "learning" one - All the software remappers need to do is set a high and low mark. Everything else is calculated by the ECU. I read somewhere that there were 13 controlling tables. These could well be only 8 or 16 bits wide (ie value +- 127 or +-32767) so we're not talking a huge amount of store required. In standard tune an engine may have a min and max value for the table Boost timing set to +21222 and min value of 0. The software remap would change the +21222 to +22222.
    #55
  16. RizS3
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    RizS3 Member

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    [Jul 29, 2003]
    Mmmm here`s a section from REVO`s site:-

    [ QUOTE ]
    Using patent pending REVO (Resident Encrypted Variable Output) Architecture we are able to tune today’s modern ECU’s. It is the basis of all tuning at Revo Technik and provides the ability to have ***near infinite adjustability of specific tables.*** This allows more power to be extracted from the engine by ***combining control between the user and the ECU.*** ***This allows the user to manipulate tables.*** No other tuning company even comes close to giving you these abilities. The serial port programming allows us to reprogram the ECU without ever raising the bonnet. It plugs into the diagnostic port and will rewrite the code in just over 10 minutes.


    [/ QUOTE ] Seem`s pretty straight foward.... maybe. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh_roll.gif
    #56
  17. Administrators
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    [Jul 30, 2003]
    [ QUOTE ]
    Rob_A3 said:
    [ QUOTE ]
    Lees3 said:
    Come on guys (and Gals!) think about this seriously. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/goofy.gif

    But what happens when the trial ends? Are you seriously telling me there's enough room and computing facilities on the ECU to reset itself to factory standard at the end of the 5hrs??? I think not. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cry.gif


    [/ QUOTE ]

    Far easier to store two maps in the EEPROM. We are only talking about look up tables of data here. Storing both programs in the EEPROM is a doddle and do not forget that the SPS1 dongle swaps between programs (both already in EEPROM), it does not actually reprogram the ECU.

    [/ QUOTE ]
    Only if the EEPROM is large enough, trouble is it isn't!
    #57
  18. Administrators
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    [Jul 30, 2003]
    [ QUOTE ]
    Rob_A3 said:
    [ QUOTE ]
    Lees3 said:
    Come on guys (and Gals!) think about this seriously. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/goofy.gif

    You have a 5hr trial. It takes 30 minutes to set up and reprogram the ECU (30 minutes people!).

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Forgot to say that my revo trial took about 5 minutes to load into ECU, not 30 mins. Reinforces my suspicions that both maps reside in EEPROM, not a replacement but a supplementary map and and settings

    [/ QUOTE ]

    An EEPROM only takes a couple of minutes to reprogram, less in fact.
    #58
  19. Administrators
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    [Jul 30, 2003]
    [ QUOTE ]
    Riz S3 said:
    I`ve kept hush hush.... but heres my theory:-

    Standard ECU - REVO Upload ECU control software (10mins)

    The ECU always retains the original table but now with REVO table controller.

    So all that is changed are the figure variables in the standard table. simple but effective.

    I dont know how the table is written but heres a example...

    Ignition Timing 001000000000
    Fuel Mixture 000000010000
    Boost Timing 001000000001
    Boost Cut off 000000001000
    Overload Boost 001000000000
    Limp Mode 100000000000
    EPC 000000000001
    ESP 000000010000
    ABS 000001000000

    So what i think the SPS dongle does it just adjust the lines to produce more output and power etc......
    So in theory there is no mapping for each mode, just different settings.....

    Like i said just my theory. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush2.gif

    [/ QUOTE ]

    If it was that simple everyone would be doing it :p
    Anyway it's knowing where to look that's the fun part /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif
    #59
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    [Jul 30, 2003]
    [ QUOTE ]
    silvers3uk said:
    I think Al B and Riz are onto it here. Bearing in mind the Bosch ECU is a "learning" one - All the software remappers need to do is set a high and low mark. Everything else is calculated by the ECU. I read somewhere that there were 13 controlling tables. These could well be only 8 or 16 bits wide (ie value +- 127 or +-32767) so we're not talking a huge amount of store required. In standard tune an engine may have a min and max value for the table Boost timing set to +21222 and min value of 0. The software remap would change the +21222 to +22222.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    No you set a setting, it then has minimum and maximums from that point, it needs an exact point to start from or it wouldn't know where to start!
    #60
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    [Jul 30, 2003]
    [ QUOTE ]
    Riz S3 said:
    Mmmm here`s a section from REVO`s site:-

    [ QUOTE ]
    Using patent pending REVO (Resident Encrypted Variable Output) Architecture we are able to tune today’s modern ECU’s. It is the basis of all tuning at Revo Technik and provides the ability to have ***near infinite adjustability of specific tables.*** This allows more power to be extracted from the engine by ***combining control between the user and the ECU.*** ***This allows the user to manipulate tables.*** No other tuning company even comes close to giving you these abilities. The serial port programming allows us to reprogram the ECU without ever raising the bonnet. It plugs into the diagnostic port and will rewrite the code in just over 10 minutes.


    [/ QUOTE ] Seem`s pretty straight foward.... maybe. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh_roll.gif

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Yeah I agree those APR guys were very clever when they wrote it /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif
    #61
  22. RichA3Turbo
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    [Jul 30, 2003]
    [ QUOTE ]
    Wando said:
    [ QUOTE ]
    Riz S3 said:
    Mmmm here`s a section from REVO`s site:-

    [ QUOTE ]
    Using patent pending REVO (Resident Encrypted Variable Output) Architecture we are able to tune today’s modern ECU’s. It is the basis of all tuning at Revo Technik and provides the ability to have ***near infinite adjustability of specific tables.*** This allows more power to be extracted from the engine by ***combining control between the user and the ECU.*** ***This allows the user to manipulate tables.*** No other tuning company even comes close to giving you these abilities. The serial port programming allows us to reprogram the ECU without ever raising the bonnet. It plugs into the diagnostic port and will rewrite the code in just over 10 minutes.


    [/ QUOTE ] Seem`s pretty straight foward.... maybe. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh_roll.gif

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Yeah I agree those APR guys were very clever when they wrote it /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

    [/ QUOTE ]

    /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/lol.gif
    #62
  23. Gambba
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    [Jul 30, 2003]
    [ QUOTE ]
    Wando said:
    An EEPROM only takes a couple of minutes to reprogram, less in fact.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    A lot less in fact that's why it's called flashing we are talking seconds in most cases dependent on the size of the software upload! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

    I expect in the Revo case it takes a while due to the coms speed.
    #63
  24. bjacks
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    [Jul 30, 2003]
    [ QUOTE ]

    Yeah I agree those APR guys were very clever when they wrote it /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

    [/ QUOTE ]

    I was waiting for the dig.....

    Tut tut John /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif
    #64
  25. GolfTTish
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    [Jul 30, 2003]
    Post deleted by audi girl
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    [Jul 30, 2003]
    [ QUOTE ]
    Gambba said:
    [ QUOTE ]
    Wando said:
    An EEPROM only takes a couple of minutes to reprogram, less in fact.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    A lot less in fact that's why it's called flashing we are talking seconds in most cases dependent on the size of the software upload! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

    I expect in the Revo case it takes a while due to the coms speed.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Correct Com speed is the governing factor.
    #67
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  29. MushroomMan
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  32. audi_girl
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  33. GolfTTish
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    [Jul 30, 2003]
    Jo I researched all the companies available in the UK market before I orriginaly got chipped by APR.
    The people at APR europe were friendly, knowledgable, and best of all had nothing but good things to say about other tuners when I asked about them.
    Having tried APR I later switched to revo as there was no obvious UK backup for APR when APR europe disbanded, and Revo was set up being run by the same previously helpfull poeple.

    I looked At AMD, but after I had a milltek fitted there, and was dissapointed with both their service and general attitude. They were a little too quick to critiscise other tuners products, with no hard factual reasons. Consequently I decided to place my business elsewhere.

    MTM were to pricey.

    Jabbasport are top people, but having vissited them I had my concerns over product backup, as they are very small. However from what I have read subsequently this is not a problem.

    Superchips. Don't think I need to say anything.

    Oetinger. Looked good, but again a bit too pricey.

    At the time these were the only chips readily available in the UK market. There are now many more.

    I have researched every single mod I have made to my car for many months before purchasing.

    I am not defending a purchase decission, and this is the only forum on which I seem to have to defend the chip tuner I chose. On no other forum do I see such consistent bashing of one tuner by a few unhappy people who haven't even tried the product.

    I am just trying to ballance it out a bit!

    #73
  34. Administrators
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    Administrators Administrator Staff Member Administrator

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    [Jul 30, 2003]
    GolfTTish as I may have to explain it very simply for you as you do not seem to understand complicated things, the 'code' APR are claiming is the software used for developing the code eg the remap and for the technology, read all the legal files before you tell me to dig a hole, looks like you're digging a pretty good one there yourself!

    Your car isn't just software is it???
    #74
  35. halegavin
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    halegavin Member

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    [Jul 30, 2003]
    GolfTTish

    Have you been running your car on High Boost all the time or do you run on Low Boost and use High for special occasions?
    #75
  36. Administrators
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    Administrators Administrator Staff Member Administrator

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    [Jul 30, 2003]
    [ QUOTE ]
    GolfTTish said:
    Jo I researched all the companies available in the UK market before I orriginaly got chipped by APR.
    The people at APR europe were friendly, knowledgable, and best of all had nothing but good things to say about other tuners when I asked about them.
    Having tried APR I later switched to revo as there was no obvious UK backup for APR when APR europe disbanded, and Revo was set up being run by the same previously helpfull poeple.

    I looked At AMD, but after I had a milltek fitted there, and was dissapointed with both their service and general attitude. They were a little too quick to critiscise other tuners products, with no hard factual reasons. Consequently I decided to place my business elsewhere.

    MTM were to pricey.

    Jabbasport are top people, but having vissited them I had my concerns over product backup, as they are very small. However from what I have read subsequently this is not a problem.

    Superchips. Don't think I need to say anything.

    Oetinger. Looked good, but again a bit too pricey.

    At the time these were the only chips readily available in the UK market. There are now many more.

    I have researched every single mod I have made to my car for many months before purchasing.

    I am not defending a purchase decission, and this is the only forum on which I seem to have to defend the chip tuner I chose. On no other forum do I see such consistent bashing of one tuner by a few unhappy people who haven't even tried the product.

    I am just trying to ballance it out a bit!



    [/ QUOTE ]

    My A3 was Revo'd, so incorrect there.

    #76
  37. audi_girl
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    audi_girl Active Member

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    [Aug 1, 2003]
    The TT Forum have posted the results of an Interpro RR - some Revo, AmD and MTM cars there with their bhp and torque results.

    Worth a read; problems with the installation of the Revo software, plus the bhp and torque seem a bit low for a chipped car to me - I would have expected a bit more in the region of 265bhp/290lb/ft (although is that because they have chosen lower settings or something?)

    Worth a read: TT Forum Interpro RR Results
    #77
  38. MushroomMan
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    MushroomMan Sucemabite

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    [Aug 1, 2003]
    Yes it makes interesting reading.

    Jo - why have you selectively deleted the posts on this thread. I cannot remember saying anything that was inflamatory, although please correct me if you think I did. I would rather you just removed the whole thread rather than take a 1984 New Speak approach to editing. I feel singled out.
    #78
  39. audi_girl
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    audi_girl Active Member

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    [Aug 1, 2003]
    Sorry - it wasn't only you! It's just that the posts at the end, we can delete, those in the middle can't be fully deleted as they have replies...

    Pretty much *everybody* including Me and John got moderated - we could have deleted the whole thread, but felt that there was some good stuff in it - good information.

    Sorry, it really wasn't anything personal; I can't remember your thread, but it may be that it referenced something someone said, that had already been deleted, hence wouldn't have made any sense....
    #79
  40. MushroomMan
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    MushroomMan Sucemabite

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    [Aug 1, 2003]
    Quis custodiat ipsos custodes?

    #80
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