Prawn and BigAls A3 Track Car

[s33nyboy12]

Me thinks we need someone with a tracked s3 running 353bhp stripped an track ready , then arrange a track day meet!!

I volunteer myself as crash dummy for the tracked s3. ;-)

 

[S3 Paul]

Pockets are not as deep as you might think, this entire car has been built for as little as possible, it's a second hand turbo, specced up with mainly ebay parts, almost all the suspension was second hand, the only items bought brand new have been the safety critical things like the cage and seats and belts.

I'd bet this entire build cost less than half what JBS would charge for a drive in drive out ''JBS05'' conversion like yours Paul.

The key to keeping cost down is in doing as much as humanly possible yourself

50%=£500

Realy?

 

[superkarl]

and to add, my plans will be higher comp again, ported head, and large port custom inlet.
so will be interesting what they do in comparison to all these other hybrids.

 

[Reesy]

I only have a fwd track car because a decent Quattro was too expensive!!

Pinnacle of a racing car: F1 = RWD
Pinnacle of straight line speed = Drag Car = RWD
Pinnacle of traction = Rallying = 4WD

I like the name 'Quattro kid' btw..

 

[16Klappe]

Why are we turning Prawns epic build thread which has been admired by 100's of thousands of people into a willy wanging contest about who knows the most about cars.

Prawn and Bill are two of the most experienced men on this forum, stop wangling your willys and talking about how your haldex does this and how FWD doesn't do that and how RWD isn't whatever. If Prawn wanted to build the fastest track car in the world EVER he wouldn't have sold his M3 to buy his A3 back; but it turns out he loves his little FWD A3 for all the right reasons.

As Westy said to me the other day; go make your own glory. Regurgitating second hand opinions off the internet is almost gayer than AIDS. Go make this Apocalypse bringing haldex powered track car; THEN come back and compete.

Theoretical debate is for scientists and forum ****ers.

[/rant]

 

[Prawn]

-the 10HP difference between yours an Niki's rollers that makes this -1 HP on Welly doesn't it???

Comparison back in feb showed +3bhp at Bills, last week showed +3bhp on Mylos, actuator pressure run this week on mine was -3bhp at R-tech compared to last sunday at Bills, I'd say they're very close indeed and wellys was detuned because it got too hot, but that's Wellys fault for building a pikey spec engine with 3x9.5:1 and 1x9:1 pistons

Is there not a half decent LSD available for the a3 track cars in question here.....? Made a big difference on an old civic build of mine!

I have a quaife ATB fitted, and it works very well indeed. Granted not as aggressive as a plate type like Bills, but it's still lovely to use on both track and road. perfect compromise I think.

its a good discussion, and it hasnt gotten too silly yet lol.


now i know you're going to mention power to weight, and the fwd will catch and overtake. but will it really, or will the 4wd have the edge ever so much, that once they are both doing similar speeds, lets say 3 figures, aerodynamics becomes the over coming factor, making weight meaningless, so the fwd doesnt catch up, or overtake.

power:weight applies completely up to a point, at which point, like you say, aerodynamics take over.

I'd imagine that my a3 would be quicker than tufftys s3 from 70-110, but above 110-120mph I'd expect aerodynamics to play a much larger part (same drag pretty much on both cars) and the raw power of the 400bhp+ to win over and pull ahead.

Your argument makes sense, but lets not forget that the lighter FWD car could have braked much later and harder into the bend before the apex, so it's already maybe 2 car lenghts ahead, and suddenly the gap is levelled again.... if the FWD car is wheelspinning out of the bend then yes, the 4wd car will pull away faster, but the higher weight of the 4wd car will still be pulling the car out wide when the FWD car can already get on the power, so again, it's 6 of 1 and half a dozen of the other. you can swing the argument either way depending on your preference.

It is a good discussion though, like we say, it's all theory and everyone makes good points.

I actually really want someone to build an S3 track car, then we can have a real show down

 

[s3dave]

Miserable bunch-O-gits

ahah Not miserable Prawny, it makes a change to have a decent convo/debate on here,,
I am in no way knocking you, you and the lads have done amazing, and there has been a lot of graft gone into it...:icon_thumright:

by the way have you seen this....BBC Weather : United Kingdom .....

 

[superkarl]

power:weight applies completely up to a point, at which point, like you say, aerodynamics take over.

I'd imagine that my a3 would be quicker than tufftys s3 from 70-110, but above 110-120mph I'd expect aerodynamics to play a much larger part (same drag pretty much on both cars) and the raw power of the 400bhp+ to win over and pull ahead.

Your argument makes sense, but lets not forget that the lighter FWD car could have braked much later and harder into the bend before the apex, so it's already maybe 2 car lenghts ahead, and suddenly the gap is levelled again.... if the FWD car is wheelspinning out of the bend then yes, the 4wd car will pull away faster, but the higher weight of the 4wd car will still be pulling the car out wide when the FWD car can already get on the power, so again, it's 6 of 1 and half a dozen of the other. you can swing the argument either way depending on your preference.

It is a good discussion though, like we say, it's all theory and everyone makes good points.

indeed, 6 of 1 and half a dozen of the other is a perfect way of putting it.

and thanks for the constructive reply.

 

[Prawn]

might be fishing but the big head "i will destroy anything bar Bill" kind of means im not such a Fan now

Oh Paul, come on mate, were the 3 fishing smilies not enough?

Thing is, with the exception of Bill, my 290bhp on actuator pressure will be more than enough to happily see off any other forum member around any track in the land

It's all a bit of banter! I post up the results, and just get a load of abuse about how it needs 4wd. So I threw out that bit of bait

 

[Jason.s]

All that hard work and tufftys poor S3 is destroyed by an a3 with about 3.50 spent on it. Feel sorry for the guy lol

 

[Prawn]

ahah Not miserable Prawny,

by the way have you seen this....BBC Weather : United Kingdom .....

I'm ruined :sign_unfair:

 

[Prawn]

50%=£500

Realy?

You owe me a new chair. I just fell off mine laughing

JBS 05 Stage 2: Fitted and Tuned - JBS

Now, if you only paid £1000 for that kit, who's the one with connections here

 

[s3dave]

So i presume a Plate diff is no good for the road? i assume it would scrub tyres like a MOFO, like you said prawny yours seems to be the best all rounder...
Do you think your LSD is contributing to the D/S failures?

 

[Reesy]

So i presume a Plate diff is no good for the road? i assume it would scrub tyres like a MOFO, like you said prawny yours seems to be the best all rounder...
Do you think your LSD is contributing to the D/S failures?

It's not doing much for grip so I hope not!!

Basically this spec but with 2 more doors, facelift and haldex and I would agree it's the best car on ASN.

 

[s3dave]

There could be 2 potential records broken in a week if the a3 TQS Avant behaves itself on its new turbo....

 

[Prawn]

It could well be Dave yea, where most big power cars just spin the wheels up, in the dry, I have LOTS of grip from the semi slicks, and the diff means it locks both wheels and won't just spin out, so the CV's are actually transmitting a lot more torque than a 400bhp car on road tyres that just spins them up the whole time.

the plate types from what I understand can be very aggressive, and lock a lot easier. You don't feel the ATB lock at all, it's very smooth and soft, but does the job.

It's a fine line between all out track only, and keeping it usable on the road, and of course, budget plays a big part too. Like most things, my box and quaife diff were second hand too.

 

[Prawn]

and to add, my plans will be higher comp again, ported head, and large port custom inlet.
so will be interesting what they do in comparison to all these other hybrids.

I think this is a great idea SuperK.

All I've done is take all the little good bits from all the various hybrid builds, and add them all together, so basically stolen a whole heap of knowledge from everyone else that has gone down this route in the past 2-3 years.

It's just a case of not making any compromises to flow that's resulted in all those little things coming together to make a good result.

As tesco say, every little helps! (definitely stole that one from someone else today - sorry!)

 

[s33nyboy12]

As tesco say, every little helps! (definitely stole that one from someone else today - sorry!)

I said that! No worries it's your build thread, but you did nt answer my questions mr prawn........

Sean

 

[slappy_dunbar]

I think these results demonstrate how much value a WMI system has for these small hybrid turbos. The added timing advance lowers EGTs and raises power simultaneously. nice.

 

[Prawn]

I said that! No worries it's your build thread, but you did nt answer my questions mr prawn........

Sean

sorry mate, ****** thread has moved too fast

ill fire up the laptop and look back through and get to your questions

 

[Prawn]

Going to throw a few questions out there prawn, how easy is it to drive? What 0-60 times ect you looking at? Is there anything performance wise you are not happy with? If you were starting over again would you do anything specifically different?????

Cheers, Sean

finally found your questions mate, sorry about that!

To be totally honest, I've not yet had enough time to get used to it at the new and current power level, but I've had a few weeks with it at 310ish bhp, and it's been absolutely fantastic. The hybrid gives near instant response, nothing like a big turbo, yet it's still developing some seriously strong figures, and the area under the graph is huge too, it's not just quick peaks and a drop off.

From my 130 mile scary drive home last night, on full boost it feels utterly bonkers fast, faster than you could realistically ever use on the road unless it's a big open space. Traction aside, when it hooks up in 3rd the progress from 60-100 is simply amazing.

I'm still getting used to it at the moment, it's got a lot more power at the top end and a higher rev limit, so it'll take some practising, but from what I've done so far, 3rd and 4th gear are just out of this world

In terms of doing things differently, that depends how far you go back.... Within the confines of the ko4 hybrid, I don't think I'd change a thing at all.

if I went back further than that, I may well have considered a GT28 instead, but once we started down the hybrid road it was sealled. I was always going to see it through the the very end.

 

[ReDBull]

The Quaife diffs are great I'm very pleased with mine. I asked you this elsewhere but if you where me and about to re build your engine (AMK) would you put a large port head on it or buy and rebuild a AGU engine? In short how important is the CR of you engine?
I'm not convinced by these faux 4WD systems...

 

[Lewis583]

and whoever mentioned BTCC cars, they are power restricted to 300hp, have thousands of pounds of R&D spent on the car, have lsds, slicks, and fully tested aero mods. so hardly an argument

I merely mentioned the BTCC cars in response to

FWD is not the ideal track car.. AWD or RWD... FTW...

As you say they're all power restricted and have thousands spent on R&D etc etc

 

[Sam_]

BTCC isn't about "ideal" though, it's about regulation. There was a reason the A4 Quattro was banned But then that's a proper torsen setup.

Regardless. I bet it's awesome fun and once rolling, it won't matter too much if it's FWD or AWD. It'll just have less to carry.

 

[Prawn]

Others may disagree here, but I think the CR is very important, it all adds up doesn't it?

Higher CR means more efficency, so same power for less boost, and when you're running such a fine line between peak boost, timing, and EGT's, less boost means less heat, and it's also more lively off boost, and generally win win win.....Bi

The S3 / LCR brigade will argue this one with me I'm sure, because they tend not to venture onto forums for lesser models like the golfs and seats, but if you scan the net for results from various setups, you'll find it's the AGU setups time time again that are making the best results, almost always better than BAM/AMK lumps with large port heads fitted.

 

[ReDBull]

Very interesting. Especially when I can buy a low ish milage AGU engine for £350/450 fit rods to it and then sell my AMK engine on for similar money. From tuning N/A engines in the past I do appreciate Bill's flow mantra. At what point would cams make a difference?

 

[superkarl]

With you 100% there prawn, more efficient fo sho.

I had a thought tho, would too high compression create higher egts, or would the less boost mean it makes no odds
Only one way to find out

 

[sandwich1987]

Epic results and testament to yours and everyone's involved in achieving such levels of tuning. Having driven my car home from r-tech after mapping I can understand a little of what your feeling the effort yourself an tuffty, westie, welly and others I've no doubt forgot have put in has not only resulted in awesomely powerful cars but has passed on a wealth of knowledge and insight. So thanks and congrats!!

 

[666markyboy]

Wow this thread just jumped ahead a couple of pages very quickly..... a few green eyed monsters out there me thinks..... whats the point in shouting Quattro and posting pics of snow in a track car thread ?? can't remember the last time I saw a track day in snow ! anyone with enough money can build a 1000 bhp 4wd monster and then write it off at the first bend they come to, be it road or track..... it's called horses for courses and prawny has done a top job.... end of

 

[coatesy]

Sooo the argument seems to have stopped for six hours sooo ill start it again

Fwd is the best, Quattro is for girly puffs that are all like oh I can't do wheel spins in all gears because my mother said I'm not allowed I don't want to get grounded ....

Top work prawn. Frigging ace car. I'm sure when I make it to a meet where your there, you will take me out in it.

You sent my dp off ..

 

[MIGGZ]

i stand to be corrected but is the AGU better cos of the thicker rod and the higher comp ratio? apart from that and the obvious big port head and intake mani i cant see the differencs? (obviously i know the coils are different and one is drive by wire and the other is cable, but talking about the internals)

 

[s3dave]

Sooo the argument seems to have stopped for six hours sooo ill start it again

Fwd is the best, Quattro is for girly puffs that are all like oh I can't do wheel spins in all gears because my mother said I'm not allowed I don't want to get grounded ....

Top work prawn. Frigging ace car. I'm sure when I make it to a meet where your there, you will take me out in it.

You sent my dp off ..

Your argument is void because you are a ******....

 

[coatesy]

Your argument is void because you are a ******....

I like crayons ... Especially the orange ones because they taste like orange

 

[Prawn]

You sent my dp off ..

Yes it cost me £15, and the woman in the post office had to give me a hug because I was so upset at the cost

i stand to be corrected but is the AGU better cos of the thicker rod and the higher comp ratio? apart from that and the obvious big port head and intake mani i cant see the differencs? (obviously i know the coils are different and one is drive by wire and the other is cable, but talking about the internals)

Rods are the same as S3/LCR rods in so much as they're 20mm wrist pins, later A3's and ko3 based things all had smaller 19mm pins, and the little ends are much thinner and look odd, plus most forged rods in 19mm arn't rifle drilled.

Aside from that, and the LP head / intake you mentioned, mechanically, the only thing the AGU has that's better over the AMK/APY/BAM is the higher CR.

Also, On a software side of things, Niki reckoned the ME3.8 also helped the car make more power, he said the ME7.5 is very sensitive and won't let him change and alter things exactly as he wants. he said to me that tuning the me3.8 was more like raw basic tuning, where the me7.5 is more software wizzardry

Your argument is void because you are a ******....

Sadly Dave, as much as I like coatseys argument, I have to agree with you

 

[MIGGZ]

ooooooo ok that makes sense! thanks Prawn! loving this thread hey

 

[S3 Paul]

This thread used to be great...
Its gone a bit off track ( well for me anyway)
Yes Mr Prawn, That is what i paid.
No posh hi flow manifold for me though,
When building my engine I did as much as i could but like you defaulted to people that know when it came to putting the internals together.
My car is hopefully built to a good safe spec engine wise, But not all singing and dancing. I still managed to blow best part of £2.5k from lifting the bonnet to dropping it again, Not including turbo or mapping.
Thats why i said deeper pockets than me.

 

[coatesy]

Yes it cost me £15, and the woman in the post office had to give me a hug because I was so upset at the cost


Sadly Dave, as much as I like coatseys argument, I have to agree with you

Doh the robbing fkers. cheers dude.


oh like that is it pick on the special needs kid.. that's you not getting a hand drawn Christmas card !

 

[16Klappe]

Paul bro, I don't think anybody cares how deep peoples pockets are and nobody has any financial interest in any vehicle other than Tuffty's (for comedy value). This is still a great thread, and both you and Prawn have epic cars regardless of who did what or how much it didn't cost.

FWD VS RWD VS AWD. Time and time again people come back with all this rubbish, I've spent years arguing it, Prawn has spent years arguing it, Coatboy has spent years arguing it and still everybody comes back with a theoretical debate.

The facts are that not a single Haldex powered car on here has ever passed Prawn on the track, ever posed a threat to him with a lap time else where or a video from Youtube, no Haldex car from this forum has lapped the ring anywhere near his time and all the same can be said for Bills FWD Ibiza. Both Prawn and Bill have offered it up, and openly displayed track days and events they will be at, and doubtlessly they would love a bit of internal competition; but unfortunately it never turns up. Westy has done the best so far in bringing it to the plate, and a ****ing good job he's done too. But my statements still stand, they've never been beaten.

Lest we forget the total annihilation that happened at ADI when Prawn had 190bhp and ebay coilovers, pretty certain he lapped the entire field within 4 laps and tore Bumble a new one with half the power. Not to mention myself rinsing all the S3's (shush Jojo, just give me this one for arguments sake) in a lard **** A3 with a full leather interior and passenger on the same day. Even my girlfriend on her first time on the track finished middle of the field ahead of a certain members TQS.

Until I see these amazing S3/TQS cars I call custard on all of it, historically it has never happened and there is a reason for that. Either the cars aren't up to it, and the minority on here are wrong, or you're just terrible drivers and don't do your cars justice.

Go watch some Touge Battles or Hot International, it's full of amazing close racing and you often see tiny little 200bhp Civics and CRX's smashing 340bhp NSX's and S2000's.



Not to mention that in closed testing a FWD Renault Megane is 6 seconds a full lap quicker round the ring than an M3, Honda NSX-R, Audi RS4, Dodge Viper GTS, BMW 1M etc.

FWD isn't as flawed as people think, maybe it is in the traffic light Formula 1 but on the track where there are no excuses it punches far more than it's supposed weight.

 

[superkarl]

you do realise that discussion ended yesterday? right?

 

[16Klappe]

you do realise that discussion ended yesterday? right?

This argument will never end, until one of us dies.