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Discussion in 'A3/S3 Forum (8L Chassis)' started by Prawn, Dec 29, 2010.
Really interesting stuff Dan, cheers for sharing.
CR strike again
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Excellent reading especially as I will be asking Dan to look at my k-04 in the near future. Good work.
awesome stuff, cheers for doing it all so quickly Dan.
Good to hear it's in otherwise sound condition
a sound approach, as always, prevention is better than cure.. looks like will be much more robust solution when re-fitted top work
So here's the new uprated kit. The thrust collar on the right is the larger one, the one on the left is the one that was fitted to Nicks turbo! spot the difference, I have to say I think CR have either made a cockup and fitted a stock collar or there uprated kit is badly designed if they are using a stock one. I'm don't want to put CR down but it's no wonder it failed so soon! A stock thrust collar on a thrust pad designed with extra oil galleries is going to be worse than a stock collar on a stock pad! I think Nick was extremely lucky to spot this when he did as yet no damage was done but it wouldn't have been long. I just hope other turbo's are fitted with the correct part and I would suggest anyone with a CR turbo to get this checked out as potentially if they've fitted a stock thrust collar to all there uprated kits they could all do this!
Dan: Out of interest, what bits are inside my new turbo? Stock parts or the uprated bits?
Stock, only as I've only just got these new kits done.
Stock ones are fine, especially on the sort of hp you'll be running, in the case of these hybrids or high boost the new kits will Definately help as the pressures are spread over a bigger area. Problems arise when the wrong parts are fitted, nicks thrust pad had oil galleys for a larger collar but fitted with a stock one so possibly worse!
What I suggest kev is run yours as I see no issue, the kit you have is proven in all k0x turbos, check it in 3-5k miles and if there's any issue I'll happily upgrade it for you. How's that sound?
aye mate no worries, i was just wondering wether this was brand new or fitted to all of your turbos!
Will be fitted to all turbos from now on as literally only got them sorted yesterday, pure co-incidence nicks was off at the time!
Dont worry , any issues with your unit I'll happily rectify ( within reason if you decide to stick 200bhp of Nos through it I may re consider! )
That old chestnut. Favoritism towards Prawn I think..
Haha.... Think you should be careful...
Pure co-incidence, but I'm very glad it's worked out this way.
Dan and I were just talking generally about this new GT35 wheel'd hybrid he's producing, and I asked how he intended to deal with the increased thrust loads, and he told me he was just this week sourcing a new kit, so I decided I wanted in whilst mine was sat around doing nothing.
A few text messages later, and I dropped the turbo off with Dan for a rebuild. It went from concept to reality in about 18 hours flat
Pretty obvious difference on the above pics Dan, I can see what you mean. I'm guessing the additional (useless) oil galleries machined into the CR thrust would just spray oil out and do nothing at all?
Glad we caught it before any damage was done. hopefully this will give the poor little snail some chance of lasting!
do the larger oil galleries mean it would leak oil? against that stock washer/seat?
(im rushing to dans original hybrid thread to look at the assembly of the chra)
I wouldn't bother, I'm sure once Dan has had his supper / built a few hybrids / gone out racing in his TT he'll answer your question.
Unfortunately the other picture on the last page doesn't show the reverse of the thrust plate, but there is a hole that lines up with an oil galley in the bearing housing, much like the ones on the crank oil passes through these into the centre of the plate under pressure,This then pushes on the thrust collar and lubricates it at the same time. The new one has an extra galley/groove which covers the extra surface area on the new collar. Fit a stock one and now this galley is open, not cover and has no purpose, the smaller thrust bearing gets less oil pressure as it has nothing to pressurise against. I can see how the updated ones work but not the updated pad and stock collar, hence it must be a mistake I'd imagine!
Just noticed you need 1232 more views of the thread to hit 100,000!
Divide the number of views by the number of days this thread has been open.
98767 / 637 days since I started it, 155 views per day
and I bet only 50 of those each day are me and Dad posting rubbish
Great stuff dan mate wonder what's inside mine now do I ring them or get it checked before it goes on emmmm.
good work dan..
Rubbish is part and parcel of life. You just need to be able to sort throught it, AND have a bit of fun along the way. I cant all be serious.
I believe this to be the 100,000 th visit to this build thread
Nothing much happening at the mo folks, waiting on parts such as clutch plate, gearbox, exhaust, and turbo, nothing really important.
You where 1 short!
More of an update for Nick benefit
Rotor assembly arrived back this morning, all cleaned, balanced and ready to fit
Here's a few pictures of the compressor and turbine with the larger bearing kit as it was balanced.
The compressor looks dull, but if you compare it to the other picture before it was done it's because the parts get micro shot blasted to clean them before balancing to ensure no dirt etc is on the parts during balancing.
Should all be assembled and ready to go this avo.
Wow, that looks like some kind of ninja star!
The OE ones don't look like that do they
Excuse my ignorance, OE? Original equipment?
Sorry I mean the compressor on a stock K04.
technically that is a compressor from a stock ko4.
i dodnt realise prawns turbine was clipped. is there any real need for clipping? what are the + and -
No Westicles, your nasty little comp wheel isn't anywhere near as cool as mine
I THINK that's a stock ko4 comp wheel next to the 2283
Thanks for this Dan, can't wait to get it back knowing it's good to go
Seemingly not really any need for the clip Karl, but my turbo was Wellys original, from back when it was thought that the unclipped wheel was the cause of the surge, so when Dane had it rebuilt by CR after he bought it Bill had the turbine clipped to try and get around the surge I believe.
It didnât seem to effect spool up much at all, and I think the clipped turbine also allows a little more flow at the top end, so ultimately it seems like no bad thing
Itâs still possible to get mine to surge a tiny bit by giving it full power in 3[SUP]rd[/SUP] from low revs, but itâs my car, nobody else drives it apart from Dad, and we know how it should be driven to avoid it so I donât see it as an issue at all
does the clip mean you can run a tad more boost sooner in the rev range? because dont mappers have to overcome surge by limiting boost to say 18psi up to 3k rpm, until they can increase boost.
Well, in theory the clip is what stops it being able to make so much boost so soon, it's to take some energy out of the turbine and stop it spooling up too fast.
As it happens, I'd imagine it's the massive 35lb compressor wheel pumping a load of air that has to escape through a tiny ex. housing that's the cause of the surge, so the clip doesn't really seem to alter much.
Nice pix of your modified CHRA idea. Way back when I'd considered implanting a whole K16-spec thrust ring and flinger sleeve assembly into a K04 hybrid. But that was when my focus was on the turbine shaft thickness. This is a nice simplification of that. And, since K-16s and K-04s share that brass thrust bearing it hews to the OEM. In fact, there's no need to alter the bearing's machining for the up-sized parts. It all stays the same.
More news from Dan earlier, it sounds like I had totally the wrong bearing in the housing altogether as well as the wrong washers Dan found earlier! I'll wait for him to post all the details, but surfice to say I'm very glad I decided to get Dan to have a look at the turbo, and it should be considerably better now upon it's return
Sooooooo........... *cough* CR Turbos *cough*
Not good mate but at least it been found before the turbo desides to try and eat the housings followed by destruction
so spot the difference time
The one on the top is the one that was in nicks turbo, the one below is the correct one for his bearing housing.
there are 2 types of bearings a single channel and dual channel. The more up to date one is the dual channel, as the name suggests it has 2 channels feeding the bearing, you can clearly see on the top picture the grooves at the end of the bearings with holes in to supply the bearing oil. The single channel has one hole in the centre which feeds the centre of the bearing the oil the works out wards along spiral grooves in the bearing to lubricate the bearing.
i am to be honest totally gob smacked that they have fitted the dual channel bearing to a single channel bearing housing, along with the other issues this turbo wouldn't have lasted much longer! Basically by fitting the wrong bearing the oil is not getting to wear its supposed to and if it does escaping through the holes which are designed to feed it!
This picture is of the bearing housing nick has and you can clearly see the single oil feed in the centre. A dual feed with have oil holes at each end feeding the grooves and oil holes you can see at the ends of the top bearing.
heres the finished item, correct bearings and thrust washers!
Unfortunately though I think his actuator, cr turbo one is fubar, it opens as it should and works but is leaking air passed the rod, now I have no idea if this is right but non of the others I have (stock ones) do this and I can only imagine that it's the same as having a boost leak. It still takes 10psi to open but needs a constant 10psi otherwise it closes. I would have thought once pressurised to 10psi it should hold the 10psi as its a closed unit.. Any ideas?
I just LOVE professionals. Give me a good amateur any time. BB not included in that quote.