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Prawn and BigAls A3 Track Car

Discussion in 'A3/S3 Forum (8L Chassis)' started by Prawn, Dec 29, 2010.

  1. ReDBull
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    ReDBull Member

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    [Aug 10, 2013]
    Looking good Mr Prawn! Looking forward to the report.
  2. s3dave
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    s3dave TFSI Hybrid

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    [Aug 10, 2013]
    Hes gone Straight to rtech is my bet...:sly:
  3. beachbuggy
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    beachbuggy Well-Known Member

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    [Aug 10, 2013]
    Goodwood track day.. Better not break it!
  4. ReDBull
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    ReDBull Member

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    [Aug 10, 2013]
    That's what I like to hear a nice gentle shake down!
  5. Rich196
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    Rich196 Member

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    [Aug 10, 2013]
    Popped into Goodwood at half 5 after being at a jkm rolling road day. Prawn no where to be seen.
  6. beachbuggy
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    beachbuggy Well-Known Member

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    Terrorising the m25, I hear..
    Gops likes this.
  7. 16Klappe
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    16Klappe Princess Clap.

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    [Aug 10, 2013]
    Something like that.

    [​IMG]

    Smiles all round. Looks ****ing brilliant Dan, and even on actuator it still destroys mine.
  8. Reesy
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    Reesy Well-Known Member VCDS Map User

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    [Aug 10, 2013]
    Went out in this with Prawn earlier. Car has a really nice, smooth delivery and doesn't go too bad either. EGT's didn't look horrendous and the AFR's were pretty good on throttle too. interesting to see what this can do.

    :thumbsup:
  9. Prawn
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    Prawn My other car is a MINI!!!!

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    [Aug 11, 2013]
    So, top day out yesterday! Went to Goodwood in the morning with Jardo, met Andy P there for a few hours, and had a few laps out with friends.

    Then we headed off to Bens, it's in the middle of nowhere, so I drove.

    [​IMG]

    All that was left to do was bleed the brakes, and wire up the EGT display, so I got to work whilst Ben was doing a cambelt on an S3:


    [​IMG]


    [​IMG]

    Didn't get any pics of the EGT install, was very simple. Probe already in downpipe, then 2 wires from the K-type and a power feed and it's done.

    A quick stop for some of Shells finest:

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    And on the M25 :)

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    We had a little drag run, same gear same speed, and from 3-5k it was dead level between mine and Jardos, then from 5-7k mine just sailled away into the distance very quickly.

    Exactly as you'd expect really, assuming ~300bhp at 7k, from 3-5k it'd be making very similar figure to Jardos, with less weight but less torque. At the top end it really shines :)

    Driving wise it feels very similar to before, very nice to drive, boost response is lovely and not as spikey as the hybrid so part throttle is easier to modulate, it makes 5psi at 2k, 10psi at 2.5k, and is at 15psi just before 3k, so that's looking fairly promising.

    If anything, I'd say it feels a tiny bit quicker than before on actuator pressure, but that's very hard to tell without raw data. it certainly doesn't feel slow though.

    EGT wise it seems to sit around 650 on cruise at 80mph, and 500-550 cruising along the A-roads:

    [​IMG]



    The display also has a peak value memory function, which is great for checking back.

    I called in via the local test track on the way home, and a run from 3k in 3rd through to 7k in 4th (60-140) showed a peak of 846*c, which climbed briefly to 850*c a few seconds after let off, before settling right back down. to 700's.

    [​IMG]

    It seemed to reach this value by around 5.5k in 4th and then stayed there until I backed off. Who knows what they'll be on full boost, but the TFSI turbo's are known to run hot, so I'll let Niki figure it out!

    Just over 100 miles on the new setup so far, and it's finally home :)

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
  10. Prawn
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    Prawn My other car is a MINI!!!!

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    [Aug 11, 2013]
    Oh, and the DV now sounds like a duck :laugh:
    Rainbird likes this.
  11. beachbuggy
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    beachbuggy Well-Known Member

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    Worth noting that was with WMI off in comparison with the old hybrid with it on, so hopefully gets will come down a little and power up.
  12. beachbuggy
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    beachbuggy Well-Known Member

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    [Aug 11, 2013]
    Egts not gets!
  13. burns3
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    burns3 Member

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    [Aug 11, 2013]
    Looking good this new fandangled setup of yours nick. Can't wait to see the actual results it makes.
  14. 16Klappe
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    16Klappe Princess Clap.

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    [Aug 11, 2013]
    What a productive afternoon!

    I'll let Prawn do the technical bits, but basically we did some data logging for safety and research and then went to the wash bays to sort the beast out.

    The new setup feels astounding, Prawn wasn't sure but I can 100% confirm that it does feel a lot better than the old hybrid.

    Then we took some pictures :friends:

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    Skinny Prawn!

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    One for Reesy -

    [​IMG]
    Last edited: Aug 11, 2013
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  15. Prawn
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    Prawn My other car is a MINI!!!!

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    [Aug 11, 2013]
    Love it :D

    Had a top weekend, Goodwood, Parsons performance, nice morning out with Tori today, then a decent drive, successful logs, and a photo session with J-Rod.

    Fun times.

    Messing about with logs now and will post more later :)
    16Klappe likes this.
  16. Prawn
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    Prawn My other car is a MINI!!!!

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    [Aug 11, 2013]
    Camera boy at work:

    [​IMG]

    Instagram from my phone:

    [​IMG]
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  17. 16Klappe
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    16Klappe Princess Clap.

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    [Aug 11, 2013]
    I look like such a **** in that picture.
    bigal 1 and Rainbird like this.
  18. BENJAMIN
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    BENJAMIN Active Member

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    [Aug 11, 2013]
    and the rest of them. *thumbs up*
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  19. Prawn
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    Prawn My other car is a MINI!!!!

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    [Aug 11, 2013]
    So, we went for a drive :)

    it was good!

    This setup feels really, really nice. the way it spools up and delivers the power at part throttle is much nicer, much more factory feeling rather than over keen.

    On the logs, I was able to do complete full throttle runs, and everything stays well in check. I've upped my meth concentration for the minute to add a bit of fuel and keep things rich, but AFR's are very healthy, richening up nicely at the top end for safety, and EGT's today didn't exceed 794 on boost after repeated abuse through the gears.

    Power wise, logs are showing a peak of 173.1g/s on my unscalled VR6 MAF, suggesting around 296bhp, which doesn't account for any gains given by the methanol. it's swallowing up 25.5 degrees of advance without a single CF across the board, and feels absolutely great. Inlet temps are low, hovering around or just below ambient today (17-19 degree inlets with 21c ambient).

    All this at just 14psi, it's very promising indeed!
    Gops, Pedrosousa, ReDBull and 4 others like this.
  20. Adam P
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    Adam P Active Member

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    [Aug 12, 2013]
    Cars looking awesome! Saw it in the flesh at gti international on the strip but not up close. It looks so mean and aggressive :rockwoot:
  21. MIGGZ
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    MIGGZ nanananananananan BATMAN

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    [Aug 12, 2013]
    car is looking good prawny! the wing is growing on me lol

    jardo you doos!
  22. badger5
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    badger5 www.badger5.co.uk Site Sponsor

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    [Aug 12, 2013]
    looking good.

    where did you get that egt gauge? looks handy
  23. beachbuggy
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    beachbuggy Well-Known Member

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    [Aug 12, 2013]
  24. Prawn
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    Prawn My other car is a MINI!!!!

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    [Aug 12, 2013]
    The EGT display seems good to me, Dan tested his and it read 102-103 in boiling water, mine shows very similar to ambient temp with igntion on before starting it up, then rises steadily once you fire it up. it refreshes 4 times per second, and has a load of sensor input types, you select the sensor type and units and away you go!

    it also has an LED alarm that's based on peak values and time above a threshold, and an output to wire it up to an external LED or buzzer if you were that way inclined.

    Just got off the phone to Ben at R-tech. Booked in for September 5th for a full days play time!
    kwistof and <tuffty/> like this.
  25. badger5
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    badger5 www.badger5.co.uk Site Sponsor

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    [Aug 12, 2013]
    thanks chaps. I think I will invest in one for project lupo
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  26. Prawn
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    Prawn My other car is a MINI!!!!

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    [Aug 12, 2013]
  27. Gops
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    Gops 6th gear @7000rpm

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    [Aug 12, 2013]
    Looks really promising prawn! Looks like this turbo will be a favourite in the near future!
  28. MIGGZ
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    MIGGZ nanananananananan BATMAN

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    [Aug 12, 2013]
    maybe this has been said before.... so if it has i am sorry!

    what is the max that the EGT is safely allowed to go to and what is normal?
  29. superkarl
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    superkarl MAN OF STEEL

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    [Aug 12, 2013]
    from the factory, egt equipped cars have protection kick in at 920 degrees i think.
  30. MIGGZ
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    MIGGZ nanananananananan BATMAN

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    [Aug 12, 2013]
    ok so 920 is max
  31. <tuffty/>
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    <tuffty/> Badger 5 Edition Staff Member Moderator

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    [Aug 12, 2013]
    On wideband S3's using the EGT probe it is yes but modeled EGT protection is lower and is lower still on A3's... (399 IIRC)

    I believe the Lambda temp is used as part of the EGT modeling on non EGT probe equipped engines...

    Also remember that the 920 deg figure is relative to probe position... this temp will be higher in the collector but lower post turbine... when fitting EGT probes to big turbo S3's you need to drop the EGT protection value down by 100 or so degrees to get protection to kick in as required... ideally EGT's should be as low as poss but pre turbine temps can vary depending on flow through the turbo etc...

    <tuffty/>
  32. <tuffty/>
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    <tuffty/> Badger 5 Edition Staff Member Moderator

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    [Aug 12, 2013]
    Its relative... the probe is in the turbine housing on an S3 so 920 deg is where its EGT protection kicks in but the map is already enriching to a degree based on other factors like intake temps, knock and modeled EGT..

    On S4's for example they have the probe in the turbo mounting flange of the ex mani... the limit is set to 970deg on S4 maps IIRC

    <tuffty/>
  33. MIGGZ
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    MIGGZ nanananananananan BATMAN

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    [Aug 12, 2013]
    thanks tuffty
  34. beachbuggy
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    beachbuggy Well-Known Member

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    [Aug 12, 2013]
    But what's this 920 based off? Why this figure?

    Is it the limit at which its safe before valves melt . I thought on the humble k04 1.8t it was pretty much the figure where by adding more boost just increased egts but no extra power.

    Tfsi run a lot higher temps..

    hi just accept it as that was what I was told but not sure on the theory behind it!
  35. Prawn
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    Prawn My other car is a MINI!!!!

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    [Aug 12, 2013]
    based on PT's numbers, it would suggest that my 850 peak seen so far relates to ~950 pre turbine temp.

    Given that it's only at 1 bar of boost, has feck loads of ignition advance and pulls zero timing at all, I'm inclined to believe that the +100 degree rule doesn't always apply with great accuracy.

    I'm not saying it won't run hot on the EGT's, st2+ tfsi's are known to run high EGT's. I think there's definitely some testing to be done to see where it's happiest.
  36. s3dave
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    s3dave TFSI Hybrid

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    [Aug 12, 2013]
    Every mm away from the turbine is going to alter the EGT reading so not an exact science at all..
  37. superkarl
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    superkarl MAN OF STEEL

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    [Aug 12, 2013]
    the tfsi setup will have very different exhaust pressures and choke points too compared to the 1.8t setup, different housing, better designed manifold-turbine housing, plus its larger in size so you'd prob expect pressures and temps to be lower in comparison to 1.8t setup.
    Wonder what egt protection is set at on factory tfsi ecus?

    i guess egt temps will have some relation to cylinder temps and thats probably what they base their enrichment points on, god knows how they determine it, we'l never know
  38. Prawn
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    Prawn My other car is a MINI!!!!

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    [Aug 12, 2013]
    yea, so many variables.

    What is it, is relative though, regardless of actual numbers, if it's mapped and makes a peak of 'X' on the dyno, I can compare that value to peaks I see in use, and get a feel for what's normal, so hopefully if something does go astray I'll notice it pretty quickly.
  39. <tuffty/>
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    <tuffty/> Badger 5 Edition Staff Member Moderator

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    [Aug 12, 2013]
    When I had my probe in the collector after the initial BT conversion I was seeing 1000deg or so... didn't know about TABGSS at that time... was flooding the engine pretty much all the time under boost...

    The 920 figure will be a safe figure based on VAG testing no doubt and the fact that cast iron starts to melt from something like 1200 deg on.. obvs this is dependent on the alloy content of the material as melting points can be raised but I am no metallurgist and no expert in all things EGT but the AMK/BAM maps have a hard limit of 1110 deg for fault diagnosis.....

    temperature as I have said is relative... component flow capability and material tolernace all play a part... the new TSI 1.4's for example run higher EGT's too and can tolerate running lambda 1.0 at much higher EGT temps...

    <tuffty/>
  40. badger5
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    badger5 www.badger5.co.uk Site Sponsor

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    [Aug 12, 2013]
    no its not, but it becomes more precise when you measure and compare OE position to post turbine and see the temp gradients..
    Temp gradients which converge I will add, the more the motors run under load..

    The range of 100-150'c cooler post turbine, no more than 3" from turbos discharge outlet is a good aproximation from what I have "measured"

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