1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

Prawn and BigAls A3 Track Car

Discussion in 'A3/S3 Forum (8L Chassis)' started by Prawn, Dec 29, 2010.

  1. Sam_
    Online

    Sam_ Down under

    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2011
    Messages:
    2,859
    Likes Received:
    367
    [Aug 2, 2013]
  2. beachbuggy
    Offline

    beachbuggy Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 27, 2010
    Messages:
    1,767
    Likes Received:
    140
    [Aug 2, 2013]
    I think our 2 45 degree bends and a silicone pipe will do for now:) especially as it was about 10 times cheaper than that one...
  3. Sam_
    Online

    Sam_ Down under

    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2011
    Messages:
    2,859
    Likes Received:
    367
    [Aug 2, 2013]
    Yeah, it was more for others I guess. Since some of the TFSI K04 intakes are quite OEM looking which some might like. It seems VF and APR do 3" intakes but they're pretty pricey. Saying that, the B5 TIP isn't shy either. When's it being fired up?
  4. beachbuggy
    Offline

    beachbuggy Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 27, 2010
    Messages:
    1,767
    Likes Received:
    140
    [Aug 2, 2013]
    Tomorrow all being well..Downpipe is being made up tomorrow and the rest of the bits fitted back up.

    I think it will have to be a progressive test initially as it'll be run on the old map, and I don't think anyone knows how it's going to react!
  5. beachbuggy
    Offline

    beachbuggy Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 27, 2010
    Messages:
    1,767
    Likes Received:
    140
    [Aug 2, 2013]
    Ideally though Id like to see it run on actuator pressure, and it make/flow the same as the old turbo but be better at doing it!
  6. Prawn
    Offline

    Prawn My other car is a MINI!!!!

    Joined:
    Dec 8, 2006
    Messages:
    9,749
    Likes Received:
    1,464
    [Aug 2, 2013]
    As Dan says, I'm picking up a load of bits from him tonight, then tomorrow morning with any luck I'll get to work fitting all the pipework whilst Ben makes the downpipe (hopefully :) ), and if all goes to plan it'd be cool to fire it up tomorrow.

    Will run on actuator pressure and see how it runs and compare logs to previous, then once we're happy that it runs properly and fault free it'll be off to Niki.

    In theory, same compressor wheel, and a similar 1 bar actuator should yield similar results on actuator pressure, I'm not sure if the larger A/R will open things up a little top end or not.

    I'm also not sure how the stock TFSI turbine wheel compares to my 7 degree clipped RS6 turbine of the old turbo.

    Dan: do you know much about the comparison between those?
  7. beachbuggy
    Offline

    beachbuggy Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 27, 2010
    Messages:
    1,767
    Likes Received:
    140
    [Aug 2, 2013]
    The Tfsi turbine and rs6 clipped one you where running are identical in size IE 50mm*44.5mm thus it shouldn't make any difference. However, the TFSI is the full back turbine and supposed to be more efficient. Your clipped turbine was done for surging reasons, and supposedly also aids top end flow but we are now in a larger/better designed manifold/scroll and better turbine so who knows!

    The single most important factor we hopefully will gain is the EGT max. Your old Hybrid was always limited by EGT's where as with any luck we might be able to eventually run more boost for similar EGT's or similar boost for lower EGT's and more timing..

    There is no doubt , or at least I hope the TFSI is far more efficient than the Old version and all being well this should translate on to the 1.8t as well...

    Whether it'll surge or not, I couldn't say at present.. Only time will tell...

    And as this progresses, and a decent sized inlet gets put on and the FMIC pipe work gets shortened and improved I'm sure it'll only get better.
  8. superkarl
    Offline

    superkarl MAN OF STEEL

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2010
    Messages:
    7,723
    Likes Received:
    1,176
    [Aug 2, 2013]
    at a dyno day at awesomegti, there was a golf R, stage 2+ so 360-370hp or whatever they claim, the surge was unreal out of that thing, but the driver, the dyno operators just pushed it without saying a word, i dont think people truely know what it is. The owner prob thinks its a badass noise his wastegate makes lol.
    I thought it was awful, i turned to s3dave and was like 'thats bad', so surge is an issue on these as much as our hybrid setups using the same comp wheel.
  9. beachbuggy
    Offline

    beachbuggy Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 27, 2010
    Messages:
    1,767
    Likes Received:
    140
    [Aug 2, 2013]
    yeah but at what PSI were they running for it too surge? 15psi as the old ones did or 28 psi like most tfsi stage 2+ run at to get 370bhp?

    Any turbo will surge given the right circumstances.....
  10. Prawn
    Offline

    Prawn My other car is a MINI!!!!

    Joined:
    Dec 8, 2006
    Messages:
    9,749
    Likes Received:
    1,464
    [Aug 2, 2013]
    Interesting to hear Karl,

    Hopefully, that's a result of dinosaur tuning at play.

    it seems that the TFSI tuning scene is going through the same revelation that the 1.8T scene went through a year or so back, less boost and more timing being the future.

    I've still seen many TFSI St2+ maps running 1.9-2 bar of boost with very little timing, so I'm not surprised if they're seeing surge.

    I believe Niki did an ed30 last week that made 360bhp from 21psi with around 350lbft, so fairly similar figures to my old setup at similar boost levels.

    it's certainly promising, but only time will tell!
  11. Sam_
    Online

    Sam_ Down under

    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2011
    Messages:
    2,859
    Likes Received:
    367
    [Aug 2, 2013]
    Yeah like I said, at every dyno day I go to, it's one surging TFSI after another. Hopefully that won't be the case here. They do make good power though. Seemingly constant across different dynos too. Always puts mine to shame.
  12. badger5
    Offline

    badger5 www.badger5.co.uk Site Sponsor

    Joined:
    May 28, 2004
    Messages:
    7,396
    Likes Received:
    738
    [Aug 2, 2013]
    daft mapping and uber spikes... = surge...

    choked by factory intakes I bet they wont surge, not make the top end power....
  13. beachbuggy
    Offline

    beachbuggy Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 27, 2010
    Messages:
    1,767
    Likes Received:
    140
    [Aug 2, 2013]
    Please also remember that the "boost pressure" we see and measure is pressure inside the inlet manifold that can not be consumed by the engine. If the engine could consume all the volume of air the turbo could make it would read 0.. Pressure is directly proportional to volume and speed, thus an engine running 28psi making the same power as one only showing 21psi might be consuming exactly the same amount of volume of air, but the speed in which is delivered to the engine may be very different.. or the speed the same and the volume different, both will give the same outcome..

    23psi out of a k03s is not the same as 23psi out of a K04 or 23psi out of a gt28.. Volume, Speed will all be different but the net pressure will be the same.... The same volume of air with differing speeds will have different pressures.

    Off track I know!
    Last edited: Aug 2, 2013
    ReDBull likes this.
  14. superkarl
    Offline

    superkarl MAN OF STEEL

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2010
    Messages:
    7,723
    Likes Received:
    1,176
    [Aug 2, 2013]
    I dont know what they were running boost or map wise.
    All these tfsi guys just stick to generic files for their maps, or simple adjustments with revo sps.

    Like prawn says, theyre behind tuning wise compared to their advances in hardware, i dunno.
    I guess its like us lot sticking a b5 tip, tubular mani, large port, and using just a generic stage 2 revo file. Alll the boost and not taking into account more recent revelations in hardware.

    I frequent the tfsi forums a bit, and ive never once heard egts mentioned, so i guess thats a good sign.

    After all this, hopefully the tfsi people will want a 20v engine! 20v head for the win! Hopefully it will match or better their results
  15. Prawn
    Offline

    Prawn My other car is a MINI!!!!

    Joined:
    Dec 8, 2006
    Messages:
    9,749
    Likes Received:
    1,464
    [Aug 2, 2013]
    A good sign? or a hint that most tfsi tuners are still clueless :laugh:

    i hope you're right SuperK!
  16. S3Alex
    Offline

    S3Alex Rarely neutral

    Joined:
    Dec 3, 2008
    Messages:
    5,999
    Likes Received:
    1,343
    [Aug 2, 2013]
    I don't think they're unaware of it as a problem,but as most people in the TFSi world aren't at Stg2,the only real issues with high EGT's seem to be on a few Stg2+ cars being flogged within an inch of their turbos lives for the last few bhp before a big turbo,or in a few cases BT cars badly set up,and run very hard.

    One case where an owner managed to hole a piston springs to mind,but he'd done that on an engine with stock internals,a lot of boost,and ragged pretty mercilessly in the process.

    So yes,I think most of us running a lot of boost in the TFSi world are aware of it as a serious potential problem,and the software companies with the most experience(Revo and APR) are as well.
  17. Prawn
    Offline

    Prawn My other car is a MINI!!!!

    Joined:
    Dec 8, 2006
    Messages:
    9,749
    Likes Received:
    1,464
    [Aug 2, 2013]
    that's good to hear, much like the 8L when it was new and the cars were all low mileage so many people appear to be oblivious to the risks of tuning to such a degree, and in the last few years it's really starting to come back and bite people in the 1.8T circles as these high mileage engines start to fail, and people realise that 10 years down the line they arn't quite as resilient as when they rolled off the line.

    What I am sure of is that we can all learn from each other across different engines and the lines, with tuning techniques, hardware setups etc etc, I've been following tfsi stuff much more closely since all this came about :)
    S3Alex likes this.
  18. S3Alex
    Offline

    S3Alex Rarely neutral

    Joined:
    Dec 3, 2008
    Messages:
    5,999
    Likes Received:
    1,343
    [Aug 2, 2013]
    I think that's spot on.

    A lot of people still have the impression that "it's a turbo engine,you can just turn the boost up",and you still find a few people trying DIY solutions to this sort of thing.
    Also,in the early stages of an engine's production life,tuners and owners explore the limits of what it's capable of,and often get messy results when it goes wrong.

    Your point about higher mileage engines is also right,and what was a nice tight engine with good bearings etc,eventually becomes a bit worn and then grenades itself when someone goes for the limits of tuning.

    I've learnt so much from not only ASN and VAGOC in general,but also from guys like yourselves here in other parts of the forum,pushing and developing,and even if it's not directly transferable,it's great to see what other petrolheads get up to.
  19. badger5
    Offline

    badger5 www.badger5.co.uk Site Sponsor

    Joined:
    May 28, 2004
    Messages:
    7,396
    Likes Received:
    738
    [Aug 2, 2013]
    I would substitute volume with air mass flow... but agree ....

    "Its all about the Flow"~(TM)~ :p
  20. badger5
    Offline

    badger5 www.badger5.co.uk Site Sponsor

    Joined:
    May 28, 2004
    Messages:
    7,396
    Likes Received:
    738
    [Aug 2, 2013]
    to me this would actually be a bad sign... and 99% dont consider egt's and without a sensor they will never know as the tfsi dont have egt sensors like later 1.8t k04 cars did
    egt models... simulated but not measured by probe

    measuring one would be key to my own tuning of a tfsi motor...... same as I did on k03 hybrid. Information is key.
  21. Prawn
    Offline

    Prawn My other car is a MINI!!!!

    Joined:
    Dec 8, 2006
    Messages:
    9,749
    Likes Received:
    1,464
    [Aug 2, 2013]
    You'll be pleased to hear that an EGT probe will be installed on this setup :)
    bigal 1 and badger5 like this.
  22. ReDBull
    Offline

    ReDBull Member

    Joined:
    Nov 7, 2011
    Messages:
    215
    Likes Received:
    12
    [Aug 2, 2013]
    Speaking to friends with tuned TFSI cars they just stick to brand named hard wear and go on REVO/APR claimed power figures. Is this where the 1.8t scene was 5/6 years ago?
    Bet you cat wait for a drive tomorw Nick!
  23. S3Alex
    Offline

    S3Alex Rarely neutral

    Joined:
    Dec 3, 2008
    Messages:
    5,999
    Likes Received:
    1,343
    [Aug 3, 2013]
    How do you mean brand named hardware?

    Do you mean as opposed to custom made or no-name gear?
  24. Rich196
    Offline

    Rich196 Member

    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2012
    Messages:
    97
    Likes Received:
    6
    [Aug 3, 2013]
    Well is it running yet???? I'm excited!!!
  25. chaz20vt
    Offline

    chaz20vt Member

    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2012
    Messages:
    428
    Likes Received:
    21
    [Aug 3, 2013]
    Any updates on this today
    Everyone is waiting patiently
  26. Scullies
    Offline

    Scullies Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 9, 2012
    Messages:
    1,284
    Likes Received:
    324
    [Aug 3, 2013]
    He is probably out terrorising gay lord Ferrari drivers :)
  27. superkarl
    Offline

    superkarl MAN OF STEEL

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2010
    Messages:
    7,723
    Likes Received:
    1,176
    [Aug 3, 2013]
    lmao

    They are bad gaylords!
  28. Westy
    Offline

    Westy Double Dark Side! Diesel & 8P

    Joined:
    Dec 2, 2008
    Messages:
    17,329
    Likes Received:
    981
    [Aug 3, 2013]
    Lol. Or changing another gearbox :ninja:
    Jason.s likes this.
  29. 16Klappe
    Offline

    16Klappe RacecaR forward is RacecaR backwards. Supporter

    Joined:
    Sep 16, 2008
    Messages:
    5,541
    Likes Received:
    1,027
    [Aug 3, 2013]
    I know.
  30. Gops
    Offline

    Gops 6th gear @7000rpm

    Joined:
    Nov 6, 2009
    Messages:
    2,648
    Likes Received:
    289
    [Aug 3, 2013]
    Tell mee!
  31. Prawn
    Offline

    Prawn My other car is a MINI!!!!

    Joined:
    Dec 8, 2006
    Messages:
    9,749
    Likes Received:
    1,464
    [Aug 3, 2013]
    Hai Guys!!!!!! :p

    I'm back.

    Sadly, the downpipe bits didn't arrive this week, so the main plan for today, making a downpipe, wasn't able to happen :(

    Bit of a shame, but it can't be helped.

    Instead, we finished off fitting a pair of 3'' downpipes to Bens RS4, which now sounds epic, and then set about finishing off everything else on the A3.

    I painted the charge pipes and TIP, and whilst they were drying I did a few final touches under the bonnet, fixing coolant hoses and clips and things, then dropped the TIP in to see how it was going to look:

    [​IMG]

    Shiney new DV from Forge plumbed into it's new home:

    [​IMG]

    Charge pipework all welded up, painted, and fitted:

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    With the bracket by the crank pulley, the main cross member is actually really solidly mounted. We were going to brace is, but somewhere it needs to flex for engine movement, and across the length of pipe made the most sense, as the angular change when it flexes will be the least. Long term I will replace the straight coupler with a bellow I think.

    We wern't happy with the oil drain we had made either. With the weight on the wheels, the drain sat just 5mm from the driveshaft. Under compression it would hit.

    We tried changing the length of the hose, but it just kinked, so intead we took 2 ko3 oil drains, and did a cut and shut to come up with one decent drain, using solid fittings at either end and an unmodified audi flexi section in the middle. This should be much more reliable.

    [​IMG]

    Catch can back in, just needs a few lengths of pipe to plumb it all up, and that's the bay finished!

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    Fired up and runs pefectly, just incredibly loud with no downpipe! happy days :)

    and into the sunlight!

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
  32. beachbuggy
    Offline

    beachbuggy Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 27, 2010
    Messages:
    1,767
    Likes Received:
    140
    [Aug 3, 2013]
    Almost looks like it belongs there!
  33. Barks
    Offline

    Barks Member

    Joined:
    Aug 23, 2009
    Messages:
    335
    Likes Received:
    1
    [Aug 3, 2013]
    Looking good Guys, nice work
  34. 16Klappe
    Offline

    16Klappe RacecaR forward is RacecaR backwards. Supporter

    Joined:
    Sep 16, 2008
    Messages:
    5,541
    Likes Received:
    1,027
    [Aug 3, 2013]
    Looks bang ****ing tidy that does.

    Huge hats off to Ginge, Dan and yourself for making it look so good. If it goes half as well as it looks then it's a job well done.
  35. Prawn
    Offline

    Prawn My other car is a MINI!!!!

    Joined:
    Dec 8, 2006
    Messages:
    9,749
    Likes Received:
    1,464
    [Aug 3, 2013]
    It does look cool doesn't it?

    Almost so well integrated into the engine bay, that it doesn't look like it's anything special at all!
  36. Gops
    Offline

    Gops 6th gear @7000rpm

    Joined:
    Nov 6, 2009
    Messages:
    2,648
    Likes Received:
    289
    [Aug 3, 2013]
    Looks sexy! I like!
  37. BENJAMIN
    Offline

    BENJAMIN Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 3, 2011
    Messages:
    499
    Likes Received:
    82
    [Aug 4, 2013]
    'Ginge?' The cheek of it, I'm strawberry blonde.
  38. 16Klappe
    Offline

    16Klappe RacecaR forward is RacecaR backwards. Supporter

    Joined:
    Sep 16, 2008
    Messages:
    5,541
    Likes Received:
    1,027
    [Aug 4, 2013]
    :beerchug:

    Xxx
  39. t0m_LCR
    Offline

    t0m_LCR New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 6, 2013
    Messages:
    3
    Likes Received:
    0
    [Aug 6, 2013]
    Been keeping an eye on this for a while now, and must say this TFSI route onto the 1.8 T is giving me ideas for my LCR Nick.

    Credit to you and everyone for getting stuck in to this! Looking forward to the results.
  40. Prawn
    Offline

    Prawn My other car is a MINI!!!!

    Joined:
    Dec 8, 2006
    Messages:
    9,749
    Likes Received:
    1,464
    [Aug 6, 2013]
    Cheers Tom, I didn't know you were on here mate :) Hopefully I might see you at Prept one month if I ever make it there!

    Heard from Ben this morning, downpipe parts are finally here, along with a stock TFSI downpipe from Niki as a test to see if it's anywhere similar just for reference.

    Hopefully we'll get it all sorted this week :)

Share This Page