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Discussion in 'A3/S3 Forum (8L Chassis)' started by Prawn, Dec 29, 2010.
Not cheap by any means:
VW Golf R Intake
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I think our 2 45 degree bends and a silicone pipe will do for now especially as it was about 10 times cheaper than that one...
Yeah, it was more for others I guess. Since some of the TFSI K04 intakes are quite OEM looking which some might like. It seems VF and APR do 3" intakes but they're pretty pricey. Saying that, the B5 TIP isn't shy either. When's it being fired up?
Tomorrow all being well..Downpipe is being made up tomorrow and the rest of the bits fitted back up.
I think it will have to be a progressive test initially as it'll be run on the old map, and I don't think anyone knows how it's going to react!
Ideally though Id like to see it run on actuator pressure, and it make/flow the same as the old turbo but be better at doing it!
As Dan says, I'm picking up a load of bits from him tonight, then tomorrow morning with any luck I'll get to work fitting all the pipework whilst Ben makes the downpipe (hopefully ), and if all goes to plan it'd be cool to fire it up tomorrow.
Will run on actuator pressure and see how it runs and compare logs to previous, then once we're happy that it runs properly and fault free it'll be off to Niki.
In theory, same compressor wheel, and a similar 1 bar actuator should yield similar results on actuator pressure, I'm not sure if the larger A/R will open things up a little top end or not.
I'm also not sure how the stock TFSI turbine wheel compares to my 7 degree clipped RS6 turbine of the old turbo.
Dan: do you know much about the comparison between those?
The Tfsi turbine and rs6 clipped one you where running are identical in size IE 50mm*44.5mm thus it shouldn't make any difference. However, the TFSI is the full back turbine and supposed to be more efficient. Your clipped turbine was done for surging reasons, and supposedly also aids top end flow but we are now in a larger/better designed manifold/scroll and better turbine so who knows!
The single most important factor we hopefully will gain is the EGT max. Your old Hybrid was always limited by EGT's where as with any luck we might be able to eventually run more boost for similar EGT's or similar boost for lower EGT's and more timing..
There is no doubt , or at least I hope the TFSI is far more efficient than the Old version and all being well this should translate on to the 1.8t as well...
Whether it'll surge or not, I couldn't say at present.. Only time will tell...
And as this progresses, and a decent sized inlet gets put on and the FMIC pipe work gets shortened and improved I'm sure it'll only get better.
at a dyno day at awesomegti, there was a golf R, stage 2+ so 360-370hp or whatever they claim, the surge was unreal out of that thing, but the driver, the dyno operators just pushed it without saying a word, i dont think people truely know what it is. The owner prob thinks its a badass noise his wastegate makes lol.
I thought it was awful, i turned to s3dave and was like 'thats bad', so surge is an issue on these as much as our hybrid setups using the same comp wheel.
yeah but at what PSI were they running for it too surge? 15psi as the old ones did or 28 psi like most tfsi stage 2+ run at to get 370bhp?
Any turbo will surge given the right circumstances.....
Interesting to hear Karl,
Hopefully, that's a result of dinosaur tuning at play.
it seems that the TFSI tuning scene is going through the same revelation that the 1.8T scene went through a year or so back, less boost and more timing being the future.
I've still seen many TFSI St2+ maps running 1.9-2 bar of boost with very little timing, so I'm not surprised if they're seeing surge.
I believe Niki did an ed30 last week that made 360bhp from 21psi with around 350lbft, so fairly similar figures to my old setup at similar boost levels.
it's certainly promising, but only time will tell!
Yeah like I said, at every dyno day I go to, it's one surging TFSI after another. Hopefully that won't be the case here. They do make good power though. Seemingly constant across different dynos too. Always puts mine to shame.
daft mapping and uber spikes... = surge...
choked by factory intakes I bet they wont surge, not make the top end power....
Please also remember that the "boost pressure" we see and measure is pressure inside the inlet manifold that can not be consumed by the engine. If the engine could consume all the volume of air the turbo could make it would read 0.. Pressure is directly proportional to volume and speed, thus an engine running 28psi making the same power as one only showing 21psi might be consuming exactly the same amount of volume of air, but the speed in which is delivered to the engine may be very different.. or the speed the same and the volume different, both will give the same outcome..
23psi out of a k03s is not the same as 23psi out of a K04 or 23psi out of a gt28.. Volume, Speed will all be different but the net pressure will be the same.... The same volume of air with differing speeds will have different pressures.
Off track I know!
I dont know what they were running boost or map wise.
All these tfsi guys just stick to generic files for their maps, or simple adjustments with revo sps.
Like prawn says, theyre behind tuning wise compared to their advances in hardware, i dunno.
I guess its like us lot sticking a b5 tip, tubular mani, large port, and using just a generic stage 2 revo file. Alll the boost and not taking into account more recent revelations in hardware.
I frequent the tfsi forums a bit, and ive never once heard egts mentioned, so i guess thats a good sign.
After all this, hopefully the tfsi people will want a 20v engine! 20v head for the win! Hopefully it will match or better their results
A good sign? or a hint that most tfsi tuners are still clueless
i hope you're right SuperK!
I don't think they're unaware of it as a problem,but as most people in the TFSi world aren't at Stg2,the only real issues with high EGT's seem to be on a few Stg2+ cars being flogged within an inch of their turbos lives for the last few bhp before a big turbo,or in a few cases BT cars badly set up,and run very hard.
One case where an owner managed to hole a piston springs to mind,but he'd done that on an engine with stock internals,a lot of boost,and ragged pretty mercilessly in the process.
So yes,I think most of us running a lot of boost in the TFSi world are aware of it as a serious potential problem,and the software companies with the most experience(Revo and APR) are as well.
that's good to hear, much like the 8L when it was new and the cars were all low mileage so many people appear to be oblivious to the risks of tuning to such a degree, and in the last few years it's really starting to come back and bite people in the 1.8T circles as these high mileage engines start to fail, and people realise that 10 years down the line they arn't quite as resilient as when they rolled off the line.
What I am sure of is that we can all learn from each other across different engines and the lines, with tuning techniques, hardware setups etc etc, I've been following tfsi stuff much more closely since all this came about
I think that's spot on.
A lot of people still have the impression that "it's a turbo engine,you can just turn the boost up",and you still find a few people trying DIY solutions to this sort of thing.
Also,in the early stages of an engine's production life,tuners and owners explore the limits of what it's capable of,and often get messy results when it goes wrong.
Your point about higher mileage engines is also right,and what was a nice tight engine with good bearings etc,eventually becomes a bit worn and then grenades itself when someone goes for the limits of tuning.
I've learnt so much from not only ASN and VAGOC in general,but also from guys like yourselves here in other parts of the forum,pushing and developing,and even if it's not directly transferable,it's great to see what other petrolheads get up to.
I would substitute volume with air mass flow... but agree ....
"Its all about the Flow"~(TM)~
to me this would actually be a bad sign... and 99% dont consider egt's and without a sensor they will never know as the tfsi dont have egt sensors like later 1.8t k04 cars did
egt models... simulated but not measured by probe
measuring one would be key to my own tuning of a tfsi motor...... same as I did on k03 hybrid. Information is key.
You'll be pleased to hear that an EGT probe will be installed on this setup
Speaking to friends with tuned TFSI cars they just stick to brand named hard wear and go on REVO/APR claimed power figures. Is this where the 1.8t scene was 5/6 years ago?
Bet you cat wait for a drive tomorw Nick!
How do you mean brand named hardware?
Do you mean as opposed to custom made or no-name gear?
Well is it running yet???? I'm excited!!!
Any updates on this today
Everyone is waiting patiently
He is probably out terrorising gay lord Ferrari drivers
They are bad gaylords!
Lol. Or changing another gearbox
Sadly, the downpipe bits didn't arrive this week, so the main plan for today, making a downpipe, wasn't able to happen
Bit of a shame, but it can't be helped.
Instead, we finished off fitting a pair of 3'' downpipes to Bens RS4, which now sounds epic, and then set about finishing off everything else on the A3.
I painted the charge pipes and TIP, and whilst they were drying I did a few final touches under the bonnet, fixing coolant hoses and clips and things, then dropped the TIP in to see how it was going to look:
Shiney new DV from Forge plumbed into it's new home:
Charge pipework all welded up, painted, and fitted:
With the bracket by the crank pulley, the main cross member is actually really solidly mounted. We were going to brace is, but somewhere it needs to flex for engine movement, and across the length of pipe made the most sense, as the angular change when it flexes will be the least. Long term I will replace the straight coupler with a bellow I think.
We wern't happy with the oil drain we had made either. With the weight on the wheels, the drain sat just 5mm from the driveshaft. Under compression it would hit.
We tried changing the length of the hose, but it just kinked, so intead we took 2 ko3 oil drains, and did a cut and shut to come up with one decent drain, using solid fittings at either end and an unmodified audi flexi section in the middle. This should be much more reliable.
Catch can back in, just needs a few lengths of pipe to plumb it all up, and that's the bay finished!
Fired up and runs pefectly, just incredibly loud with no downpipe! happy days
and into the sunlight!
Almost looks like it belongs there!
Looking good Guys, nice work
Looks bang ****ing tidy that does.
Huge hats off to Ginge, Dan and yourself for making it look so good. If it goes half as well as it looks then it's a job well done.
It does look cool doesn't it?
Almost so well integrated into the engine bay, that it doesn't look like it's anything special at all!
Looks sexy! I like!
'Ginge?' The cheek of it, I'm strawberry blonde.
Been keeping an eye on this for a while now, and must say this TFSI route onto the 1.8 T is giving me ideas for my LCR Nick.
Credit to you and everyone for getting stuck in to this! Looking forward to the results.
Cheers Tom, I didn't know you were on here mate Hopefully I might see you at Prept one month if I ever make it there!
Heard from Ben this morning, downpipe parts are finally here, along with a stock TFSI downpipe from Niki as a test to see if it's anywhere similar just for reference.
Hopefully we'll get it all sorted this week