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Discussion in 'A3/S3 Forum (8L Chassis)' started by Prawn, Dec 29, 2010.
nice update mr nickelsworth wonder how the DP is gona sit as its now on the opposite side?
Dan had started the makings of a TIP, leaving it over length so we could trim it to suit, we offered that up to see if it would fit, and it does
Time to offer it into the car.
We lifted the engine back in, and found there was actually way more room around the master cylinder area than we had thought there would be, but a small lug on the back of the turbo was fouling on the bulkhead, on a bulge around the steering rack knuckle area.
We pulled the lump out, and ground off the redundant lug on the turbo, and just to be extra sure, we heated up the bulkhead and gave it a gentle tap.
The area that needs a tap is just in front of the steering rack connetion, on the RHD car the bulkhead bulges around the rack, and the metal is quite thin. There is plenty of room to tap it back, even with the engine in situ you'd do it easily from underneath. We tapped it back about 15mm in total, making the convex profile concave. We checked inside and there is still about 20mm clearance from the steering knuckle during it's full rotation, so no trouble here.
There is now enough room to get your hand all the way round the back of the compressor housing, and we rocked the engine with the dogbone disconnected and it cannot contact or come closer even with engine movement. happy days.
Plenty of room for a downpipe on the FWD car:
Oil line all fitted:
Due to how low the turbo sits, it is fairly tight for room around the driveshaft on that side, so for the oil drain we used ko3 ends, and added a length of braided flexi oil hose to join them up:
Ben made up a 1 bar actuator with a custom rod welded to it, utilising the stock TFSI N75 and connections:
And this is where I left her:
Dan is going down to Parsons performance today to work on the car and boost pipe routing, and I'll be heading there tonight to throw on a new cambelt for good measure, replace the leaking rocker cover gasket, and hopefully get the engine back in the car for the last time
I need to say a massive thanks to Ben and Dan for doing the bulk of the work here, whilst I usually do everything myself, the requirement for a custom downpipe and engine removal for pics and checking of the first fit meant it needed to go to him, but being as I like to be involved with everything, I'm going to try and get down there and help out as much as possible to turn it around quickly, so Ben can focus on the tricky bits like making the downpipe Dan's done a great job getting the adapter made, and the fact that it all bolted up so easily is a credit to it's design
Ben moves bloody quick
Great work chaps.
Looking awesome dude!
Any chance you can make a template for the actuator then dan could sell them with the tfsi hybrid when they are ring built?
Looking forward to the updates dude!
And I bet you can't wait to get it on the dyno!
Everything will be documented and recorded for future re-production dude
The engine will not need to come out at all on future installs, we just pulled the engine out now to get some really good pics of it and see if there were any tweaks required to the adapter or other parts.
Once finished, we reckon it'll be around a 45 minute job to remove the turbo, and everything is nicely accessible around the core too.
Another thoroughly productive evening last night
I left work at 5, and made the 2 hour trek across the south coast to Bens from my work, and got there at 7pm.
when i arrived, ben had already done the cam seals, rocker gasket, and fitted a new cambelt and tensioner damper to my engine, and Dan had been busy mocking up charge pipe routes and securing final bits on the turbo. As I pulled up the engine was ready to refit the the final time
So in it went:
Even with my heatshield back in place, there was still plenty of room around the turbo cold side:
And clearance to the master cylinder:
Up in the air for driveshaft bolts and dog bone mount:
Dan cut the OE connector off the end of the TFSI charge pipe, and will be welding on a 63mm alloy bend:
Hot side pipework mocked up fully, despite the long run across the front, due to the outlet position from the turbo this route is less than 6'' longer than the old 'up and over' route.
Adding a let handed inlet manifold will simplify the pipe run massively, making it really short.
We also replaced the silicon join on the TIP with a slightly different one which makes it sit level now, so it looks much better
We also got the front end back on, and all the electrics back together, so it's looking like a car again
Dan has taken the pipework away to weld up, and we'll be doing the downpipe on Saturday after a few days off it so Ben can crack on with other jobs.
If all goes to plan we should be able to fire it up on saturday evening
Cracking work lads. This is what I like to see..... fast builds
prawn, dan, ben, is the downpipe goimg to be a major ballache on 4wd applications?
obv you have plenty of room and its probably easier than conventional ko3/4 setups. But on a haldex the prop and transfer box is in the way, and from what i can fathom in my head the downpipe has to go down the drivers side of the prop, so a tfsi on an s3 that downpipe will have to go back on itself and squeezed past the prop like oem. Right?
I was wondering this my self, but in a less knowledgable way. More, Will this fit mine kind of way.
I'm not sure to be honest at the moment Karl, as I've not got that much experience with 4wd exhausts.
Ben and Dan were looking at it with a view to a 4wd exhaust system and reckon it'll still be possible, the turbo is so far over towards the drivers side that it could probably squeeze down the drivers side still without much of a double back.
Once mine's up and running and the theory is proven, providing the power figures produced make it a viable option to continue with, Dan's 4wd TT will be next up, then we'll be able to make jigs of both a fwd and a 4wd downpipe for reproduction.
The FWD downpipe will be very simple indeed, probably nothing more than a 90 - flexi - 45 and that's it! It really is ideally placed.
There's actually more room than I imagined, I don't there will any issue with the quattro downpipe, I think we are just going to make one downpipe, that will fit the quattro and FWD. Whilst the downpipe does double back on its self, its actually as much as either Ben or I first thought as the turbo is quite far over the the left anyway. There is no doubt that it will be tight but not impossible and will certainly be more than suitable flow wise without any really nasty tight turns. However until it'
s made up we can't be 100%..
A couple of things I'd like to change or will look at changing in the future..
1) I will be making up a custom charge pipe, whilst the OE is great fitment it is a little restirctive compared to a straight 63mm run, this will be easy enough to do once I have some turbo outlet adaptors made up so we can weld on a charge pipe.
2) It would be really nice to have a built in DV valve as the K03 does, there is a nice pocket below the brake MC in which this would fit perfectly and thus do away with a pipe run off the TIP to the FMIC pipe.
3) We will have to look into this , but we will need some custom water and oil lines. Other than the oil drain which Ben made all the others where OEM ones either from the B6 A4 or Tfsi, whilst they are great and work perfectly they are expensive from Audi.
^^^ I stand corrected
Dan and Ben are the brains behind all this I'm just the guinea pig on this occasion!
Looking good! Have you a date in mind for mapping or is that a way down the line?
As soon as it's running and working we'll ask mr G. for the first available date! No point in booking it in now and hoping it'll all go to plan, but once it's been driven we'll know the score and get it mapped asap!
considering how similar the new and old turbo are it'l probably run great as it is.
That's the hope in the interim karl, the new turbo has the same compressor wheel, and what I believe is a larger turbine housing and turbine wheel.
With my simple ME3.8 being entirely airflow based, if I leave it on actuator pressure at 1 bar it should be more than OK. I'll obviously keep an eye on fueling and CF's, and if it feels good I may plumb my Forge Unos MBC in parallel and raise the boost slowly that way keeping an eye on CF's and fuel before it goes up to Niki for the tweaks.
Heard from Dan, all the charge pipes are now welded up and ready to go back on the car
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some support brackets for the charge pipes dude?
All in hand my friendly badger man
the TFSI outlet pipe has a support bracket attached just behind the crank pulley, and we'll be coming up with something midway along the long run bolted to the gearbox casing to support the longer run across the front also
Seeing as my old Forge 007P was welded to a charge pipe to simplify things on the old build, we wern't able to re-use my old faithful valve on the new setup.
Thankfully, Forge to the rescue again! I arrived home to find a nice shiney black 007P waiting on the stairs, and some orange stickers to go on the car in preperation for the Forge Motorsport Action day at Castle Combe on September 14th
Thanks guys :thumbsup:
Anyone else going to be coming? I need to get my eye in for Combe again ahead of ADI a month later!
Looking good prawn! Really impressed with the way things are going! This would really be something I would like to do!
can you not move the water reservoir out the way , put the maf and filter in there , well away from the hotside . that intake looks , err , loooooooooooooong . ??
It is about 6" shorter than a stock TFSI inlet routing.
Can't see any reasonable benefit to shortening it; certainly not at the expense of rerouting almost the entire coolant system.
next time your drinking through a straw , suck through one then add another one , there is a lot of flow through that pipe ,
and its easy to extend 3 water pipes :thumbsup:
Agree with jim.
It would further revolutionize the tfsi install, do it because. Aswell as the theory
Funny you should suggest that, as we've already thought of it!
This install is 2 fold really, firstly, this setup is to see how easily it can be integrated and added onto a former ko4 setup, which is what we're doing now, and to see how well it'll perform.
After that, once the theory is proved, I'll be making up my own left handed throttle body, to neaten up the charge pipe, and Ben and I have already discussed the possibility of relocating the washer bottle and mounting the intake down behind the drivers side headlight, which should in theory be the coldest part of the bay, and would allow me to keep my DV on the hotside which is preferable
All in good time folks
Slight flaw in your logic Jim.
drinking through a straw, relies on air pressure on the fluid and you sucking against gravity! Add another straw you increase height and gravity it has to rise plus your drink is far more viscous than air and will have greater friction/resistance to over come by the small straw.......
So not entirely relevant to a TIP which has to over come resistance, pressure and volume.. No gravity to resist and little viscosity..
plus we are running a 3" tip( on purpose) which in volume stakes is bloody massive, try telling me if you suck through a 100cm 3" tube it'll be harder than a 50cm 3" tube!
If anything we might get cavitation due to slow air speed through the tip, or it might be spot on and work a dream, one thing it won't do is hinder performance, especially considering even the performance TIPs are 2.5" and flow 380bhp and if you look at the other tfsi thread 441bhp on the smaller size...
More than aware of the theory behind it, but I was under the impression that Prawns figment of this setup was to do the R&D for a minimal work bolt on TFSI conversion.
So whilst he might want to do the rerouting later on (something I know he has already planned) it isn't any benefit at the moment because it adds more elements to something which is meant to be simple Which is why I don't think it is necessary at the moment.
Prawn may say different though, his build and his rules.
Haha, two replies before me. That'll teach me for having a cuppa before replying. Haha
You can just use a larger diameter pipe... 90mm rather than 76mm... easier than relocating
if only someone came up with oversize intakes pipes... oh hang on..........
big TIP ftw
You could probably just use one of the multitudes of large bore Golf R intakes on the market. They're so bloody common here, the forums are filled with them and their conversations on who's makes the best sounding DSG farts. Most of the remapped ones I've heard on the rollers are surge-tastic but presumably that's down to the mapping. They do make awesome power with bolt ons. 210kW (~286hp) at the wheels isn't uncommon. Yours should be good.
We could dude, but the main issue with this is:
unless there are some others that are 3'' or bigger.
Either way, the TFSI induction kits are SO expensive, compared to a bit of 3'' silicon and some alloy hard pipe.
Just looking forward to getting it running now and a first drive!
ha ha , that woke you all up , ok on the set-up for the intake , but short intake , and away from the hot-side is the way I would go .
Just for my two pence worth, I don't think there is anything these three lads have not thought of. These points have all been thoroughly discussed and evaluated and AFTER initial testing there will be more to come.
There are a few 3" Golf R intakes from what I gather (a few guys have them here) but you're right, it's probably not worth it for the cost of them. Some of the inlets have nice airboxes. The "filter on a stick" style are quite cheap. I thought you might be able to get a used one there though. Food for thought for others going down the same path (sounds like some are).