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Potentially looking for a new turbo, bit of advice please

Discussion in 'A3/S3 Forum (8L Chassis)' started by sportstractor, Mar 29, 2012.

  1. sportstractor
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    sportstractor Chugger

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    [Mar 29, 2012]
    Hi all

    Recently got my car upto full stage 2 spec, so went along to Rtech last Friday for mapping. Nick found my previous stage 1 map was a custom code map which was fuelling lean, from what I can gather he said they adjusted the boost map and nothing else. As it was is was making around 254bhp. Nick worked his magic and after about 12 runs on the RR he ended up in the low 280s... Which is fairly good but it's capable of a bit more. Nick explained that the turbo was having trouble meeting demanded pressure after ruling out leaks he put it down to a weak actuator or the crack in the turbo. On sunday I removed my actuator and it had a decent amount of tension, wasn't much worse than the the I had got which I was told was fairly good....

    Replacing it made no difference and after logging it's still not meeting demand up high so I'm putting it down to a weak turbo that has covered almost 110000 miles! So should I send mine away to be rebuilt or buy a new one, iv seen on the xs power site, they are doing them for £330, are they any good or poorly built chinese versions? Iv dropped turbo dynamics an email and will give cr turbos a bell later on.

    I realise I could go hybrid but this would entail a **** load more cost as well as putting the rods in jeopardy, so don't think I'm going to go down that route.
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  3. <tuffty/>
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    <tuffty/> Badger 5 Edition Staff Member Moderator

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    [Mar 29, 2012]
    XS Power ones are essentially the chinese type of thing you see on eBay...

    I assume you are planning for a straight refurb K04 like Westy did rather than a hybrid?

    <tuffty/>
    #2
  4. Prawn
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    Prawn My other car is a MINI!!!!

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    [Mar 29, 2012]
    fairly sure the XS ones are copies Jimbob.

    Man up, bang a hybrid on there and have it mapped like mine ;)

    In all seriousness though, I think new turbo's can make a big difference. Look at the figures Westy got when he fitted a brand spanking new turbo.

    Bill DID have some genuine refurbed KO4's for £250+vat a while back, but I'm sure they'd all be gone now.
    #3
  5. sportstractor
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    sportstractor Chugger

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    [Mar 29, 2012]
    Ah, I thought so for that price. Yes looking at just getting my turbo reconditioned or getting a new one. I would go hybrid if the extra costs were just the turbo, but then there's the injectors, rods, and mapping which would all cost a fair bit.
    #4
  6. sportstractor
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    sportstractor Chugger

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    Definitely mate, if the turbo can keep up with demand it should make a massive difference, il post up the requested verses actual chart.

    Tuffty do you know if bill has got any of these going?
    #5
  7. <tuffty/>
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    <tuffty/> Badger 5 Edition Staff Member Moderator

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    [Mar 29, 2012]
    Pretty sure they are all gone mate...sold like hot cakes tbh...

    <tuffty/>
    #6
  8. beachbuggy
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    beachbuggy Well-Known Member

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    [Mar 29, 2012]
    A weak actuator will result in pressure build in the exhaust housing forcing open the wastegate. A stronger wastegate will clamp it tighter longer. Unless you have a massive crack in the wastegate housing I'm not sure the normal hair line cracks will cause a problem unless the crack has raised part of the housing causing the waste gate penny not to seal properly. I've seen this on a few housings. Most likely issues just through general wear and tear are worn compressor wheels worn turbine wheels normally inducers wear and as a result become smaller which they are the bit that 'bits' the air is the bit that effects efficiency the most. A simple rebuild may not resolve the issues as new internals may be needed. Hybrids are good options but dorequire further mods.
    #7
  9. Alais DJA
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    Alais DJA Member

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    [Mar 29, 2012]
    When looking for mine ( and being the first Turbo i've had stock ) it was mentioned a lot that turbo's only have 100k life to them.

    I've got bout 4000 miles left on mine now - and mr.buggy is good to go - but prevention is the best solution.
    #8
  10. sportstractor
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    sportstractor Chugger

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    [Mar 29, 2012]
    Well at the time it didn't seem like a massive crack but it was around the waste gate.

    Well turbo dynamics have quoted me £593 plus vat for a new turbo if I exchange my old one. Just waiting to hear from cr turbos. They did say they could rebuild mine, and I quote:

    'We do a repair service which is £195+VAT but if the turbine housing (exhaust side) is cracked then a new turbo will be required. The £195 is the price we charge for repair but sometimes other new parts may be needed depending on the condition of the turbo.'

    So this could be just as costly.
    #9
  11. Alais DJA
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    Alais DJA Member

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    [Mar 29, 2012]
    Have you contacted Beachbuggy over a turbo at all?

    Guy knows his stuff....
    #10
  12. S3featesV9
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    S3featesV9 Active Member

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    [Mar 29, 2012]
    I am running custom code map too, and had a destroyed turbo. Needing bill to look over the map. The mans busy though :(
    #11
  13. Alais DJA
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    Alais DJA Member

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    [Mar 29, 2012]
    It's always a combination thats gonna wreck it.

    Firstly, MAP - if it's + boost, + fuelling, = BANG - needs to be sorted at source

    I saw a post a while back about a guy who wanted 300bhp with his KO4, XS Manifold etc.etc.. the bottom line is, the build wasnt planned properly.

    I'm working backwards, firstly GETTING the turbo, then buying all parts needed to make sure it runs as efficient as possible - therefore ( hopfully ) :) eliminating any issues down the line
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  14. S3featesV9
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    S3featesV9 Active Member

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    [Mar 29, 2012]
    Combination? Not really, if the map is a dodgy one then that's all it'll take. I spoke to bill and he said it isn't common to see custom codes running lean unless there is an issue with the car so advised me to do some logging on block31. Just gotta get vcds now!
    #13
  15. Prawn
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    Prawn My other car is a MINI!!!!

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    [Mar 29, 2012]
    Jimbo, at that price I'd stick a hybrid on there anyway! get Niki to tweak the map for low boost and 290-300bhp and leave the rest as is for now!
    #14
  16. sportstractor
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    sportstractor Chugger

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    [Mar 29, 2012]
    What's the rough price on a hybrid? Is it a new unit thats been machined? Reckon it would be more beneficial running a 'detuned' hybrid over a maxed out k04?? I say maxed out, in terms of egts, it's safely maxed out.
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  17. Prawn
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    Prawn My other car is a MINI!!!!

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    [Mar 29, 2012]
    yea man, it HAS to be safer running a hybrid at low boost rather than a ko4 at high boost. You'll get the same figures with much less heat and much more headroom in the whole setup.

    I'm sure the hybrid from CR is within £100 or so of the price TD quoted you for a standard new one!
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  18. sportstractor
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    sportstractor Chugger

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    Scratch that, cr turbos have just got back to me, they are doing K04s including vat and delivery for £492 and hybrid unit for £648 with my trading in.

    The standard turbo is looking tempting as it wouldn't require any tweaking of the map presumably, and it's £156 cheaper.... So is it worth the extra £156 + mapping for a turbo that will be a bit overkill?
    #17
  19. Alais DJA
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    Alais DJA Member

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    [Mar 29, 2012]
    Again...have you spoke to Beachbuggy - he's on the forums
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  20. sportstractor
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    sportstractor Chugger

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    [Mar 29, 2012]
    I see what you saying but its a case of 'where do I draw the line'. Think iv just talked myself into a cr hybrid now though! My mot is tomorrow, if it goes through all fine, its being bought!!!
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  21. Alais DJA
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    Alais DJA Member

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    [Mar 29, 2012]
    Im in the same boat mate, MOT in June.....get all ther parts for then. And all fingers crossed, it will be a green slip - then it's POD IN AUGUST!!!!
    #20
  22. Prawn
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    Prawn My other car is a MINI!!!!

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    [Mar 29, 2012]
    then a new clutch in September!

    Do it Jimbo, you'll only find that it's not enough after a while, go for the hybrid and go conservative for now, then there's scope for LOADS more when you get bored.
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  23. Alais DJA
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    Alais DJA Member

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    [Mar 29, 2012]
    70 mph limit til Christmas :) - u free easter weekend at all?
    #22
  24. Prawn
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    Prawn My other car is a MINI!!!!

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    taking my lady down to Cornwall for the easter weekend, sorry mate!
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  25. Jimgrim77
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    Jimgrim77 Member

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    [Mar 29, 2012]
    Been there seen it and done it in a very similar situation.

    Where in North Devon are you based? I live in Clevedon, i could blast down the motorway sometime soon and show you mine when i have it re-assembled later today or tomorrow. At least then, you can judge for yourself the delivery and see it in a similar car.

    I'm running a stage 3 Turbodynamics hybrid (limited 21psi) with a nice linear map (rod management in essence - as that is a real factor). Price wise, i paid trade/cost which ended up at around £800.

    The problem i found though was with greater bhp, came torque, and with torque and the haldex system, came clutch slip.

    Just be mindful of the knock on effects as it's probably another reason why mine is back on the ramps. Sometimes, standard replacement is better if your intention is to have something ultra reliable and does not require you to have very deep pockets.
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  26. s3dave
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    s3dave TFSI Hybrid

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    [Mar 29, 2012]
    Did you find out your problem Jim?
    #25
  27. Jimgrim77
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    Jimgrim77 Member

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    [Mar 29, 2012]
    Thanks for asking Dave...and not wishing to hijack this thread in any way. But...

    Happy to report it's not the turbo, or the mani or the downpipe/exhaust. However, it appears that my engine mounts are worn and i need to uprate/replacement the entire upper engine mounts asap to resolve, or at least that's what i hope.

    Essentially, just reving the car on the ramps from idle is making the engine tilt and rotate and it's rubbing against the pipework running behind the gear box giving is significant wear - i literally could grab the downpipe and shake the engine...and i cannot think of anything else that it could be as i have already replaced the dog bone engine mount already. The cars done 131k miles now and i think that they have just giving up the ghost. There is so little space under my bonnet now that I have to restrict its movement as best can, now that it appears loose, it explains the problems.

    I was reading Westy's post the other night and it got me thinking, so have subsequently checked and it demonstrates the true value of shared experiences on this asn forum. I simply couldn't fathom, why the engine was fine at idle and making all sorts of noise under duress....they were the last thing i'd consider as they are under the battery and out of sight out of mind etc.

    I can only assume that under the more recent upgrades and duress being applied through increased engine torque that now the mounts have now disintegrated. Modified cars...who's have them!?

    Any one have any recommendations on these mounts/assemblies btw?
    Last edited: Mar 30, 2012
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  28. sportstractor
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    sportstractor Chugger

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    [Mar 29, 2012]
    That would be cool, I'm near Barnstaple which would be a fair trek, although the a361 is a good blasting road, give me a shout if you fancy the trip. I'm fairly tempted by cr turbos offer currently.

    Niki put launch control on my car which is savage, so it's only a matter of time until its gone, rods is the only thing I want to avoid having to change, which is just a case of limiting torque.
    #27
  29. Jimgrim77
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    Jimgrim77 Member

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    [Mar 29, 2012]
    No problem. Exeter would be in between, unless better suggestion.

    lol...launch control = mashed rods/clutch i imagine. It's a car...not a space ship!

    Rods could go at any time...more power = more risk, we all know that...but like prawn has mentioned, and myself seemingly, running less aggressive linear maps will preserve rods better.

    It's the savage launches and the holding of high maximum torque figures that'll kill the rods and the car. I'm touching the largest piece of wood I can find right now...

    When we meet, i'll show you. I'll be back on the road next Tuesday..fingers crossed.
    #28
  30. sportstractor
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    sportstractor Chugger

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    shame your car is not on the road now as im going down to see a forum members who breaking up his car tomorrow in exeter. Damn your getting me so paranoid about the rods. Roll on mot tomorrow, that will decide my cars hybrid fate
    #29
  31. Jimgrim77
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    Jimgrim77 Member

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    [Mar 29, 2012]
    Good luck with it. Will give you a shout when back on the road.

    Driving a Fiat 500 pool car is not my thing.
    #30
  32. sportstractor
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    sportstractor Chugger

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    [Mar 30, 2012]
    well here are logs to show the performance of my current turbo after i replaced the actuator... the chart doesnt show revs but this is a 4th gear run, so you can see the actual boost dropping off below the requested up in the high rev range:

    [​IMG]
    #31
  33. Jimgrim77
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    Jimgrim77 Member

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    [Mar 30, 2012]
    Hmmm....under maximum power then power is dropping off. I had similar problem with my K04. Removed it and found the slightest hariline crack. With your mods, it'll only take the slightest crack to be significant when really asking it to deliver and in 4th..that will be more apparent.

    Do you have the xspower mani? If you are considering the turbo...get one of those too. The difference is staggering and you may as well for the price and access to the turbo for fitment.
    #32
  34. beachbuggy
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    beachbuggy Well-Known Member

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    To be honest it doesn't look so bad to me.. The actual load is pretty much keeping up with the requested. And the actual Pressure isn't that far off the Requested either, You're asking for near 21psi at 4500 and then 18psi at over near 7000rpm which for any K04 I believe is pretty good, Some one might be able to confirm either way but I would have thought 18psi near red line is pretty good you're asking for a load of 174 and getting 173 which isn't to far off.

    If the map is too aggresive it doesn't matter how good the turbo is it just might not be able to keep up with the map.. Obviously you've been advised that the turbo is the issue so I guess the map isn't the problem here then
    #33
  35. sportstractor
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    sportstractor Chugger

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    [Mar 30, 2012]
    I have relentless manifold, downpipe and sports cat mate
    #34
  36. sportstractor
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    sportstractor Chugger

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    [Mar 30, 2012]
    intresting, now i examine it a bit harder i see what your saying, the actual isnt too far off the demand, its a shame i did log it before changing the actuator. Niki just seemed to think there was a little more to be had out of it as hes been seeing 300 from small port head K04s with the similar setups to mine, i presume hes mapped it to what the turbo was capable of, and he did say if i changed the actuator/turbo, i would need to pop back to get the map tweeked to see the extra power... either way im happy with the power its making at the moment, it feels like a rocketship compared to what iv been driving for the past 2 years.
    #35
  37. badger5
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    badger5 www.badger5.co.uk Site Sponsor

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    [Mar 30, 2012]
    launch control and std rods..........
    #36
  38. aragorn
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    aragorn "Stick a V8 in it!" Staff Member Moderator VCDS Map User

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    [Mar 30, 2012]
    N75 duty is at 99% the whole way, which would suggest the turbos flat out and giving all it can...
    #37
  39. sportstractor
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    sportstractor Chugger

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    [Mar 31, 2012]
    Yep, that's all it's got, not too shabby for a 110,000 mile turbo I suppose.

    Indeed bill, after speaking to pats3 yesterday, I may have to start considering rods a bit more seriously... Will have to rob the bank at this rate...
    #38

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