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Potential Haldex failure

Discussion in 'A3/S3/Sportback (8P Chassis)' started by T3KT0N1K, Aug 8, 2013.

  1. T3KT0N1K
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    T3KT0N1K Member

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    [Aug 8, 2013]
    Hi guys.

    Firstly, I'm sure this has probably come up before and I've tried searching the forum, but I haven't found anything and I'm pressed for time.

    Basically, I had a Sachs clutch and Loba single mass flysheel installed yesterday by AmD Tunning, Essex. I delivered the car to them with nothign more than a slippy clutch, but when the installed the new kit and took it for a test drive, they allegedly encountered imeadiate vibration coming from the rear diff and qustioned me about it. So long story short, I took the car for a quick test drive and found that there was what I would gauge as a sever vibration, coming from the diff it seems, that could be felt through the entire chasis and was loud enough to be heard over the radio at a fairly loud volume. The frequency of the vibration was it it's most disturbing at about 2000RPM-2100RPM. Took it back to the shop, put it on a ramp, disconnected the Haldex, then took the car out again and the vibration was completely gone. Suggesting that it is rear diff related.

    Theories so far are either:

    A. The Haldex pump has failed and thus the diff is engaging unlubricated
    B. The diff is stuffed.
    C. Both the above.

    Anyone had this issue before? If so, what can you tell me about the cost of the parts, part numbers etc

    My car is an 2007 S3 8P.

    Any and all help is appreciated. Having the worst luck with cars at the moment.
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  2. S3Alex
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    S3Alex Rarely neutral

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    [Aug 8, 2013]
    The Haldex can and does fail.

    It doesn't need much maintenance,but if it doen't get it's oilf anf filter changed on time,it can give up.

    There are a few reports here and elsewhere which will say the same.

    AMD will be able to give you all of the part numbers and likely costs.
    #2
  3. T3KT0N1K
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    T3KT0N1K Member

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    [Aug 8, 2013]
    Yea, I had heard that. It's just sucky timing.

    I wonder if I should really get Audi to look at it and replace it if needs be, so that I've got a nice Audi receipt for the work. Wanna keep the car valuable for future sale. Hoep it's not expensive. Very much running out of credit now :-/

    By the way, that Ibis white S3 was yours. Very impressive too. Love the way you've got everything so well hiddne, both in the cabin and engine bay (Ben offered me a sneak peak. I didn't touch anything). How much did it cost you to get that adjustable Haldex funkiness going on?
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  4. ENZO
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    ENZO Member

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    [Aug 8, 2013]
    damn your having some bad luck :(
    hope its a cheap fix
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  5. DJ-S3
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    DJ-S3 Member

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    [Aug 8, 2013]
    Your lucky, 2000rpm to 2100rpm. I wish mine was that. Mines 2000rpm to 2500rpm and more noticeable in higher gears. It isn't a faulty diff. It's just the age and ware of the diff. Statller told me (they've had it on a few cars they've done with this clutch kit) it's just a rubber doughnut (I think they said) Thats had its fair ware on due to the age of the car (mines a 56plate). They also said that another customer had his diff replaced and the vibrations went, but only to come back with more mileage on the car. Plus it's a smf, it doesn't have the dmf to cope with the vibrations, the dmf probably coped with the vibrations a lot more, now you've gone smf (like me and lot more of us) your likely to hear a lot more.

    Theres a lot of us who have this clutch that know about it, and tell the people buying the clutch that this will be the case. It does get quieter (or less noticeable) with a few hundred miles on the clutch. Don't worry about it too much, your haldex is fine (if its not then I am not to blame, I'm not a mechanic lol)
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  6. T3KT0N1K
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    T3KT0N1K Member

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    [Aug 8, 2013]
    No kidding! I might just walk out side now, down trou', bend over and let the rest of fate/sods law/ the world screw me. Y'know, just to get it out of the way.
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  7. T3KT0N1K
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    T3KT0N1K Member

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    [Aug 8, 2013]
    Man, I wish I had this info before I had the kit installed. Had I have known this was gonna happen, I would've gone with a safer option.

    Does anyone else concur with this info? Any techies/mechanics with the specific knowledge and experience? AmD could only speculate.

    I desperately wanna get this resolved before it causes any further damage. I've just been on to Audi and, aside from the £300-£400 for a service, they want a further £98 per hour, just to troubleshoot and diagnose the problem! My bank manager's gonna kill me!
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  8. DJ-S3
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    DJ-S3 Member

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    [Aug 8, 2013]
    300-400 is the least of your worries, just remember that it's the prop shaft doughnut that's worn. That's what they told me. Not a problem but its noticeable.

    Oh and not to sound cheeky or anything but if you did a simple search on here it brings up this

    http://www.audi-sport.net/vb/gnj-motorsport/181576-loba-sachs-smf-kit.html

    Which I have said there's a vibration between the specified rev range. Sorry.
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  9. DJ-S3
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    DJ-S3 Member

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    [Aug 8, 2013]
    Oh and a new prop shaft, your talking the same price as the clutch.... 😳
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  10. T3KT0N1K
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    T3KT0N1K Member

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    [Aug 8, 2013]
    If there is that much vibration then, from a mechanical physics perspective, I find it hard to believe that it's not or won't at some point, become very serious. Hence why I need to find out precisely what it is. :(

    I did do a search. Just not for the criteria you specified. I searched for "Haldex virbation". Will read the thread you found asap. Thanks for finding it.
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  11. DJ-S3
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    DJ-S3 Member

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    [Aug 8, 2013]
    I started the thread. Lol. I'm sure someone will be along to be more helpful than I am. I have commented on a few threads about this clutch kit, but I can catch them all. Sorry fella.
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  12. bmh.01
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    bmh.01 Member

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    [Aug 8, 2013]
    http://www.audi-sport.net/vb/a3-s3-...-quattro-load-vibrating-2-thousands-revs.html

    A new rear doughnut will solve that problem, changed mine yesterday and problem solved. Its possibly the same problem in the op caused by the propshaft being disturbed when the clutch it changed, I can't really remember exactly but mine started soon after I fitted a sachs clutch.

    The old one I removed was very noticably sticky and not free like the new one, no surprises it was causing that noise.

    O/P what did they do to disconnect the rear diff? Take the doughnut out? I'd doubt its anything to do with the actual diff as the diff will be turning all the time both rear wheels are in contact with the ground irrelvant.

    1K0 521 307 A is the part you need but they aren't cheap at close to £300. Audi will tell you it only fits pre 08 cars with the older design shaft but they are wrong/lieing, its exactly the same part but they want to sell you a £1250 propshaft complete instead.
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  13. bmh.01
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    bmh.01 Member

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    [Aug 8, 2013]
    Also the diff itself is conventionally splash lubricated so unless someone has drained the oil and ran it dry there won't be a problem with it.
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  14. T3KT0N1K
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    T3KT0N1K Member

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    [Aug 8, 2013]
    BMH.01, you lil legend! I'll question AmD about what they did (to see if they had to disturb that doughnut or drain diff fluid), then go from there.

    How long did it take to install? Thinking labour costs here.
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  15. bmh.01
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    bmh.01 Member

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    [Aug 8, 2013]
    I did it in and hour and a half on my drive so certainly no more than that on a lift. Cat-back exhaust off, unbolt the center bearing carrier then 6 bolts on the doughnut/diff then reverse to reassemble.

    Not saying its that for definite but certainly sounds possible, when the haldex couplings fail they usually tend to just fail to engage.

    When was the vibration worse? On overrun or power?
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  16. T3KT0N1K
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    T3KT0N1K Member

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    [Aug 8, 2013]
    I think it was power, but my memory is really bad (I'm known for this) and can't be 100% on that. Fairly certain it was though. Why?
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  17. T3KT0N1K
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    T3KT0N1K Member

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    [Aug 8, 2013]
    No worries matey. No doubt I will be in your shoes after I get it fixed. Appreciate your help of course.
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  18. S3Alex
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    S3Alex Rarely neutral

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    [Aug 8, 2013]
    Hi,

    I've seen all of the other posts,and what I'd do in this situation is let AMD sort it out.

    If the Haldex is at fault,it should throw a fault code which can be logged,and if it's as simple as the doughnut,then again it should be straightforward enough for them to fix.

    The clutch itself may give a bit more thrash at idle,but shouldn't be the major cause,and if there was an issue with it,I would expect Loba to sort it,as they are usually very helpful with any problems.
    If there are ANY problems with the clutch,Simon Sharp is the man to speak to at Loba UK.

    The usual method of disabling the Haldex is to pull the appropriate fuse,which will stop it from working,and if that removed the vibration,then it narrows the problem to either the diff or possibly propshaft,although the propshaft will still turn irrespective of the Haldex engaging.

    OK...quick reply on my car....Thanks very much for the kind comments,and the only reason it's so well put together is down purely to AMD,who basically built it up from stock.

    The WMI controller,Haldex controller and boost controllers were all installed and hidden by them,with virtually no wiring visible,and have worked very well.
    The Haldex controller is not cheap....around £800,and I wouldn't get one until all the other suspension work had been done.

    Good luck in getting this fixed.....it's often been my experience that getting one part uprated unmasks problems elsewhere.
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  19. DJ-S3
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    DJ-S3 Member

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    [Aug 8, 2013]
    You are a legend. Especially if its the case. Certainly a cheaper option that what Audi said. What years are the prop shaft all one unit? Audi tried telling me that I'm lucky and my 56plate isn't one that's a whole unit. Or are they lieing again and the newer models aren't a whole unit either? Not sure if you'll know but worth a try. Ha

    I new someone would come along with a better idea. Sorry for scaring you, ha, just what I'd been told and thought I would try and shed a bit of light on your situation. Let's hope its what bmh.01 thinks it could be.

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  20. T3KT0N1K
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    T3KT0N1K Member

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    [Aug 8, 2013]
    Thanks guys. I'm hoping it's either the Haldex or the coupling/doughnut, because AmD quoted £3550 just for a new diff, not including labour of four hours or so. They also quoted me just over £250 to replace the doughnut though, and offered to do it labour free, as a gesture of good will, which I think it's really good of them! Hopefully, That'll be what we do.

    Alex: Had I have not had such shell shock, coupled with a debilitating migraine at the time I was troubleshooting the issue with AmD, I would've probably asked them to get the VAGCOM out. As it stands though, Ben disconnected the harness from the Haldex unit itself, wrapped it in electrical tape to keep it clean and stuffed it out of the way. Kinda wish we'd removed the fuse instead. lol

    DJ-S3: No worries. You did give me pause for a while, but that was soon over shadowed by Audi's extortionate pricing, followed by the diff price bomb AmD dropped on me. Fingers crossed it's just the doughnut. Ben said that when they dropped the transmission out of the car, they only disconnected the front of the prop shaft from the transmission. My first thought upon hearing that though, was how was the prop shaft being suspended at that point? Was it hanging from the doughnut (I'm thinking an angle of like 5 degrees or so)? If so, the perishing rubber in the coupling may have split at that point, such that when it was all reassembled and fired up, it instantly became apparent that something was wrong. That would fit their claim that it was like it as soon as they rolled it out of the shop.
    Disclaimer: I know that Ben, at the very least, may see this post, so I just wanna say, I'm not at all trying to paint anyone in a bad light. Far from it. I'm very grateful. I'm just trying to understand the problem, so that we can all benefit from it.

    BMH.01: I'm still reading through your thread, but I find the audi instructions for correct fitment of the prop shaft interesting...

    "If droning noises occur during travel, note the following: [​IMG] t Remove balancing nut and balancing washer -arrows-.t Then, if necessary, unbolt propshaft with flexible coupling from propshaft flange of rear final drive and offset it by one hole.t If droning noises are still audible, front propshaft must be rotated one more hole.

    Im thinking about changing intermediate bearing and getting shaft balanced while off
    So will be good to see what audi say to you when you take it."

    I wonder if this was done. Perhaps that's al it is.
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  21. DJ-S3
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    DJ-S3 Member

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    [Aug 8, 2013]
    Good luck and hope it cures the vibration. Keep us informed as I know there's a few with the vibration issue. If we were women then I could see its advantage haha
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  22. gilberto
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    gilberto Member

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    [Aug 8, 2013]
    Is the vibration in every gear?
    #22
  23. DJ-S3
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    DJ-S3 Member

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    [Aug 8, 2013]
    Good luck and hope it cures the vibration. Keep us informed as I know there's a few with the vibration issue. If we were women then I could see its advantage haha
    #23
  24. DJ-S3
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    DJ-S3 Member

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    [Aug 8, 2013]
    If its like mine then yes
    #24
  25. S3Alex
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    S3Alex Rarely neutral

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    [Aug 8, 2013]
    I think one of the real problems modifying or even repairing the current S3,is the price of spares,and the way in which certain items are non-repairable,i.e.requiring a whole new unit to replace and broken ones.

    A good example is the transfer case,which has no spares and requires a whole new one at £1200 to replace.

    As to AMD's policy regarding customers,I've always found it to be very generous,and I am not in the least surprised that you've had such an offer.

    I don't know about the propshaft coupling,as I can only go by mine......it's been up and down(!) quite a few times,for the clutch,gearbox,engine mounts,and lots of other things including the entire engine coming out,but obviously being a synthetic rubber coupling,it will wear,and having said that,if yours was worn,who knows,it may have been on the way out,and in a sense better to find this way than with a full-on failure at speed.

    The doughnut is a relatively cheap item,and way better than a new Haldex.

    I learnt a long time back from the GpN Escort that this sort of thing is shockingly expensive,and premium cars like Audis are not a lot better in parts terms.
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  26. T3KT0N1K
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    T3KT0N1K Member

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    [Aug 8, 2013]
    Wise words Alex. It's possible that the prop shaft was refitted misaligned, or that it's imbalanced. But there's no way for me to find out without spending money so, if I can get Audi to rule out the diff and Haldex, when I put it in for its service and diagnosis, then I'll take it back to AmD for a doughnut replacement. I mean, I can't ask them to order the part, but take the car there for them to try realigning and balancing the prop shaft first, cos it'll cost them for a part that they probably won't get to install on anyone elses car for some time, putting them at a loss. But also, I can't afford to make several trips. Not because of fuel costs, but because of time off work.

    Many lessons being learned and chunks of humble pie being consumed here.
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  27. bmh.01
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    bmh.01 Member

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    [Aug 8, 2013]
    It's still a two piece propshaft, they just changed from using a UJ for the center joint to a CV (or the other way around i'd have to look it up). What they probably mean by one piece is that etka doesn't like the parts separately on the post 08 prop whereas it does for the pre 08 hence you can order the doughnuts separately.

    Which is why Audi will say you need a whole new propshaft on post 08 cars.
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  28. T3KT0N1K
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    T3KT0N1K Member

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    [Aug 8, 2013]
    Mine's an 07 plate, so not concerned.
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  29. S3Alex
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    S3Alex Rarely neutral

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    [Aug 8, 2013]
    I'd be surprised if it was misaligned on refitting,as they do it almost on a daily basis,so it may simply be that it was near it's time so to speak.

    I know about the time factor as well....I plan my visits around work usually.
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  30. bmh.01
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    bmh.01 Member

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    [Aug 9, 2013]
    You can't misalign it, it only goes on in one position and is a very secure fit.
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  31. T3KT0N1K
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    T3KT0N1K Member

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    [Aug 9, 2013]
    Oh right. Pretty sensible design then.

    I'm gonna take the beast back to AmD at the next available opportunity and troubleshoot the problem with them. I should hopefully be speaking with Ben tomorrow and asking him to order the doughnut. Hopefully it's nothing more serious than that. Otherwise I may have no other choice but to source a second hand diff and Haldex.

    On that subject, has anyone bought a refurbished or second hand diff and Haldex combo? If so, how much and from where?
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  32. S3Alex
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    S3Alex Rarely neutral

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    [Aug 10, 2013]
    The only problem with used parts,is whoever owned them previously.

    Properly refurbished parts are OK,and effectively that's what my gearbox is.

    You can pick up used parts quite regularly on eBay or from the wreckers networks,but you do need to be very careful.
    #32

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