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Porsche brembos

Discussion in 'A3/S3 Forum (8L Chassis)' started by gez, Apr 23, 2010.

  1. gez

    gez S3 hunter

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    Hi, currrntly trying to source some porsche 996 rear brembos for my s3. Apparently there are 3 types. 2wheel drive 4wheel drive and another type too. Anyone know which are commonly used for this conversion. Also which hoses are used? Snd are they to be used on std 312mm discs? Any help is great, thanks
     
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  3. Plane

    Plane Member

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    Some of the 996twin turbo rears are the same as the leon cupra R front I'm almost sure. You are then going to need a carrier made up / bought.

    Have a look at the ECS kits, some good value there.

    I have 2 996 twin turbo rear callipers and they are identical to the cupra R ones. So I am getting from ECS the stage 2 version 2 upgrade kit with the 332mm discs and the carriers to suit. I'll buy new pads and get hoses made up. Will work out cheap enough.
     
  4. Prawn

    Prawn My other car is a MINI!!!!

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    I've actually just paid for a set of 996 rears for my A3 as well mate!

    Head over to UKMKIVS and check out the mk4's suspension and brakes forum, and there's a brake thread sticky that gives you all the part numbers you need to mount them to your 1.8 T hubs.

    I'#ll be running mine on 325x25mm drilled discs, with custom brackets and hoses from DaveB on ukmkivs
     
  5. <tuffty/>

    <tuffty/> Badger 5 Edition...Its all about the flow...
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    Fitted some 996 rear calipers to a Leon... the Leon is running 312mm discs and had to have 1mm or so removed from the Brembo brackets Bill normally sells for Brembo Jnr calipers...

    Pad area is similar to that of the Brembo Jnr pads but smaller than OEM and my AP's

    Piston size is pitiful tbh but they are designed as rear brake calipers so its no real surprise... what this does give you is a very firm and quite dead feeling pedal... you have to stand on the pedal to get any breaking effort...

    These are not as some people have stated the same size as LCR brembos... far from it... LCR Brembos are physically bigger, have an internal balance pipe and have much larger pistons... Brembo Jnr calipers (as available with the Brembo kits and fitted to early Ibiza Cupra R's) are still physically bigger than the 996 Brembos and still have much larger pistons....

    Personally I wouldn't fit them to the front of an S3 as I don't believe they are an upgrade in braking... they may look good and they are very light but offer less effective braking than a set of DS2500's fitted to the OEM 312mm setup...

    I have some pictures which I can upload once I have got them off my phone that show the differences in pads...

    <tuffty/>
     
  6. Broken Byzan

    Broken Byzan Photographic Moderator
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    That would be good to show the pictures Tuffty, as a picture can say eleventy billion words etc.
     
  7. <tuffty/>

    <tuffty/> Badger 5 Edition...Its all about the flow...
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    Righty....

    Fitted to a Leon with 312mm discs..
    [​IMG]

    Comparison of pad sizes...
    [​IMG]

    Should be noted that the pad swept area is similar to that of the Brembo Jnr pad but as the piston diameters are much smaller on the caliper than a Brembo its academic tbh...

    To fit the calipers I had to remove approx 2mm of material from each of the pad guides as you can see from the picture below they are quite close to the disc..
    [​IMG]

    The little discs you can see attached to the pistons in the pics are anti squeal shims but had to be removed to enable fitment of the pads (DS2500's)

    <tuffty/>
     
  8. Broken Byzan

    Broken Byzan Photographic Moderator
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    Nice pics, and it makes the point.

    It does seem people get carried away with the branding without actually comparing piston sizes and pad sizes. This car athough it has nice looking discs and calipers, probably has less efficient brakes that a decent OEM setup
     
  9. A3Tom

    A3Tom Smell my finger.

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    I wouldnt put those on the front of my car.
     
  10. aragorn

    aragorn "Stick a V8 in it!"
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    Piston size is FAR more important than any crappy branding on a caliper. Rear calipers have tiny pistons and should not be used on the front unless you want a **** pedal and **** brakes.

    996 rears have a 30mm and a 28mm piston, giving a total piston area of 1321mm^2
    Stock S3 front calipers use a single 57mm piston, giving a piston area of 2550mm^2

    That means on a same size disk, the 996 rears will give you nearly half the braking torque for a given line pressure (ie pedal input).

    996 Carrera/Boxster Fronts have 40mm and 36mm pistons, gving a piston area of 2273mm^2, so again assuming the same size of disk, a stock set of calipers will produce 12% MORE torque for a given line pressure.

    I see a lot of cars with "Bling" 4 pots on them, but the reality is that most of the time its a backwards step, because no-one actually sits down and does the maths before nailing the calipers on.

    If the disk is staying the same, you need to match the piston area as best as possible to ensure you dont lose braking performance. If your making the disk bigger, you can sometimes get away with dropping a little bit of piston area, as the larger active radius brings the torque back up.
     
  11. Prawn

    Prawn My other car is a MINI!!!!

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    aragon, you'fe forgetting that the porsche caliper has 4 pistons, so you need to double that figure, making your maths totally wrong sadly.

    Tufty: those calipers pictured are from a 996 boxster, same part number as the 996 911 calipers, but known to be ***** and not work well at all.

    Supposedly, the red/silver 996 911 rear calipers are MUCH better
     
  12. <tuffty/>

    <tuffty/> Badger 5 Edition...Its all about the flow...
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    Its a minefield isn't it.... If the calipers are the same part number and therefore one would assume the same caliper I don't see how they could be any better tbh....

    Simple fact is.... these were sold to the guy as Porsche 996 rear calipers.... people buy these calipers as they are told that they work when its plainly obvious (in this case) that they are not comparable to the normal Brembo upgrade path.

    If yours are different to these (piston size etc...) then please post specs and pics as I think people should know what they are buying...

    I certainly wouldn't put these particular calipers onto the front of my car...

    <tuffty/>
     
  13. Prawn

    Prawn My other car is a MINI!!!!

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    I noticed another mistake in your post, S3/A3 calipers have a 54mm piston, not 57

    So, assuming 54mm stock piston, that gives you a total area of 2289mm²

    28 and 30mm pistons in the 996 rear caliper, gives you 2644mm², so that's 15% MORE hydraulic pressure available.

    I don't want MORE braking force from my porsche setup, I was perfectly happy with the stopping power of my 312's, what I wanted, was a lighter setup to reduce unsprung weight, that was capable of disspationg heat better than the nasty cast iron stock stuff. I found my 312's brilliant, but towards the end of a 13 mile track, they really started to die on me.

    Tufty, I'll get pics when it all arrives
     
  14. badger5

    badger5 www.badger5.co.uk
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    form over function for those fitting 996 rears/boxter-s rears onto 312mm fronts... WORSE BRAKES

    the leon we fitted these too, had very hard pedal which required a big pedal effort to pull the car to a halt.. nasty, almost non-servo feel to them.

    nothing like when you fit the cp6600 AP's or brembo gt junior calipers.. which stop with minimal pedal effort.. way better.
     
    #13 badger5, Apr 25, 2010
    Last edited: Apr 25, 2010
  15. Prawn

    Prawn My other car is a MINI!!!!

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    I really hope you're wrong Bill, as I said above, it's widely accepted that the grey boxster calipers ()that you fitted to that Leon) are no good, but apparently the 996 carrera calipers are much better. Why this is I don't know, but I think it's due to piston sizes. I'm sure the boxster rears have MUCH smaller pistons than 28 and 30mm.

    Plenty of guys on UKMKIVS are running these calipers, and they reckon they're great, but I'd probably be inclined to say the same to save face having just spent over £500 on them!

    If they do turn out to be rubbish, apparently boxster S fronts are identical in terms of caliper geometry (pad backings and offsets/disc sizes required) so in theory should bolt onto my carriers and 325 discs, and these DO have 36 and 40mm pistons, so that's my back up plan should these be *****.

    I'll let you all know when I've got them on!
     
  16. badger5

    badger5 www.badger5.co.uk
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    the owner who supplied these calipers said they were 996 rears, which are same fitment as boxter-s ones

    small pistons on them. black. and useless brakes
     
  17. aragorn

    aragorn "Stick a V8 in it!"
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    Prawn, there are 4 pistons yes, but the A3 caliper is a sliding design meaning its single piston acts like two pistons.

    As a result you simply look at one side of the caliper, ie one piston on the stock calipers and two pistons on the 4pots, giving the numbers above. This is the reason that the pedal turns to ****, as bill/tuffty has described.

    You've said the A3 calipers have 54mm pistons, which is correct, A4's use 57mm and i assumed the calipers were the same. Still doesnt change the fact that the rear calipers are a waste of time, and the 996 front calipers will give you IDENTICAL performance to the stock caliper (2273 vs 2289mm^2)

    You WILL NOT improve the brakes by any great amount simply fitting a different caliper to the car. You need to either increase the piston area (which is bad as it makes the pedal very long), make the disk larger, or use more aggressive pads. I suspect most of the improvement bill describes with the proper brembo jr's is in part from the pads being more aggressive, and in part from the caliper being more rigid, meaning the caliper body flexes less and you build pressure quicker.
     
  18. aragorn

    aragorn "Stick a V8 in it!"
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  19. 1animal1

    1animal1 The Clar!! it mouves!!!
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    my neighbour has just fitted some porsche calipers to his Leon, had to shave off quite a bit of the caliper to get the discs to fit....hes more than impressed, will try and find out what they are

    sound like these 996's after reading this though :/
     
  20. peedman

    peedman New Member

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    U could do a ECS stage 2 and fit boxster 986 calipers and buy the carriers from purems.com. They retain the factory 312x25 rotors so all u need is calipers, carriers, pads, brake lines. Thats what im doing :)
     
  21. badger5

    badger5 www.badger5.co.uk
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    No, not really, Brembo Gt junior calipers are not better because of their std pads, their piston sizes are more appropriate as they are designed as a Front Caliper for their Front brake kits.
    larger piston combo on them than the 996/boxters-S rears

    better pads obviously helps.. like DS2500, DS3000
     
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  23. <tuffty/>

    <tuffty/> Badger 5 Edition...Its all about the flow...
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    Problem with the ECS stuff is that the consumables are very expensive.... Better off with something like Bill's Brembo kit that uses cheap to replace 323mm LCR discs tbh...

    <tuffty/>
     
  24. JD09

    JD09 I'm not modding, I'm improving
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    Since DS2500s and Black diamond discs (or Bills) will set me back around £300, for a road use only car, would I be better upping that to around 5-600 for Bills eBay AP setup?
     
    #22 JD09, Apr 26, 2010
    Last edited: Apr 26, 2010
  25. 1animal1

    1animal1 The Clar!! it mouves!!!
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    IIRC its around the £800 mark but im sure they will be along shortly ;)
     
  26. JD09

    JD09 I'm not modding, I'm improving
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    Tim aren't you running Brembos lad?
     
  27. <tuffty/>

    <tuffty/> Badger 5 Edition...Its all about the flow...
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    Not sure those £325 calipers are available anymore but I have found the AP branded versions for £425 on ebay

    http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=260582481754

    I used DS2500's on my 312mm (OEM discs) setup prior to the BT conversion and 330mm/AP's and they were night and day better than the OEM setup...

    I personally cannot recommend DS2500's enough... coupled with Motul RBF600/660 fluid I have not had them fade yet nor did I with using them on the OEM setup... I am not particularly hard on brakes but I have had to shed some substantial speed rather quickly before now and its not that they pull up or bite better its that they will continue to do so...

    The BT Polo Bill did was running R32 calipers and discs but had std (£15) pads... one hard application from a reasonable speed and they lost bite until everything had cooled down... pads make a big difference IMO

    <tuffty/>
     
  28. JD09

    JD09 I'm not modding, I'm improving
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    And are those for use with 312 discs Tuffty? I.e. black diamond discs, the AP calipers linked, new pads . . . what else is required?
     
  29. <tuffty/>

    <tuffty/> Badger 5 Edition...Its all about the flow...
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    I would use 323mm LCR type discs, DS2500's, Motul RBF600 and you will also need brackets and hoses....

    312mm discs are no good as the AP's need a 28mm thick disc, 312's are 25mm

    <tuffty/>
     
  30. JD09

    JD09 I'm not modding, I'm improving
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    So got to be edging towards £7-800 there Tuffty? I would love some big brakes, but think for my use they will just be over kill!
     
  31. 1animal1

    1animal1 The Clar!! it mouves!!!
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    same place as you mate, want them for asthetic usage only but dont wana pay a grand
     
  32. Els

    Els Member

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    I think I will go for those AP calipers and take it from there.

    Currently running OEM calipers, yellow stuff pads and drilled/grooved discs, had them smoking after one harsh brake!

    Not good as Im off to the 'Ring on Thursday so will change the pads.
     
  33. <tuffty/>

    <tuffty/> Badger 5 Edition...Its all about the flow...
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    At £325 the 'TVR' branded AP's where too good a deal to pass up... I wasn't planning on changing my brakes as I felt the 312's and DS2500's where working well for me...

    If I did it again I would still go for the AP's but prob with 323mm LCR discs as they would be cheaper consumable wise but the AP's use a larger pad than the Brembo Jnr's and braking is pretty damn impressive... it made my face tingle from the rush of blood when I had to hit them hard the other day...

    <tuffty/>
     
  34. jojo

    jojo Looking for Boost!
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    Like this? :jump:
     
  35. <tuffty/>

    <tuffty/> Badger 5 Edition...Its all about the flow...
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    ...pretty much :)

    <tuffty/>
     
  36. gez

    gez S3 hunter

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    I think im still going to go with the 996 rears, but with an adapter to run the leon discs i have and also the ds2500 i have.
    So which hoses are people using with these brembos? LCR ones?
     
  37. <tuffty/>

    <tuffty/> Badger 5 Edition...Its all about the flow...
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    Used the same braided hoses and a skimmed version of the brackets Bill supplies for Brembo Jnr calipers on the Leon...

    Considering these calipers fetch upward of £300 on ebay I would advise getting the AP's from ebay link I posted further up as a suitable alternative, cost of brackets, pads and hoses work out about the same as doing the 996 calipers and you get better brakes...

    <tuffty/>
     
    #35 <tuffty/>, Apr 26, 2010
    Last edited: Apr 26, 2010
  38. JD09

    JD09 I'm not modding, I'm improving
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    Tuffty, could you do a quick break down for me, for example;

    AP calipers - 450
    Hoses - ?
    Brackets - ?

    So an all in, fitted, done dusted break down of costs?
     
  39. <tuffty/>

    <tuffty/> Badger 5 Edition...Its all about the flow...
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    I'd have a word with Bill mate... I only help out occasionally in the evenings and weekends and don't really have anything to do with that side of stuff... I just wield spanners :)

    <tuffty/>
     
  40. Broken Byzan

    Broken Byzan Photographic Moderator
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    I just read that and thought why would you weld spanners....LOL
    :sorry:
     
  41. <tuffty/>

    <tuffty/> Badger 5 Edition...Its all about the flow...
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    You need to try to remove an INA K03 exhaust mani from a transverse engine VAG car with the head still on the engine LOL

    Bill has a few 'modded' 12mm spanners ;P

    <tuffty/>
     
  42. Broken Byzan

    Broken Byzan Photographic Moderator
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    I know what you mean, ATP for transverse is the same, the nut will fit, but no space for tools in there.

    I remove the studs and mount the mani on with cap head bolts, loadsa space for an allen key in there,lol
     

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