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Porsche brakes

Discussion in 'A4/S4 forum(B5 Chassis)' started by B5QUAT, Jun 30, 2011.

  1. B5QUAT
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    B5QUAT Member

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    [Jun 30, 2011]
    Having seen a few cars at GTI International with Porsche brakes fitted I thought it would be a good idea to go down this route as it does make the car look that bit different/special. I also saw a few with the B7/8 RS4 Calipers which are gigantic!

    I've heard of the Boxster upgrade but tbh I can't see Boxster ones (light 300bhp car) being all that much better than the A8 disc/ standard caliper uprgade and I want something a bit more substantial than that if I'm honest.

    My power aim for my car is around the 300-350 bracket so I want some pretty awesome stoppers on there.

    Is the 996 conversion fairly straightforward and can anyone advise what I'd require to do fronts and rears (obviously don't just want to do fronts).

    Been also looking at the Movit conversions but they seem to be Uber expensive. If A8 discs on our hubs can be used, is it possible to fit, say, S8 calipers? I imagine if they can stop a big old barge like that, they must be pretty hefty.

    Any options considered please?
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  3. Oranoco
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    Oranoco Well-Known Member

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    [Jun 30, 2011]
    Have a look at K-Sport brakes, they do a 330mm 6 (might be 8) pot caliper with alloy bells and floating rotors for about the £800 mark with VAT. You even get braided brake lines. It's a full bolt straight on kit Looking at them for my own car.

    They are used by the Time Attack boys quite successfuly.
    Last edited: Jun 30, 2011
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  4. B5QUAT
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    B5QUAT Member

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    [Jun 30, 2011]
    That sounds great and a reasonable price too. Thanks I'll have a look.
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  5. B5QUAT
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    B5QUAT Member

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    [Jun 30, 2011]
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  6. Bradderz_1988
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    Bradderz_1988 Dont replace it, Upgrade it !!

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    [Jun 30, 2011]
    Have a look at these - 230638939029
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  7. aragorn
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    aragorn "Stick a V8 in it!" Staff Member Moderator VCDS Map User

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    [Jun 30, 2011]
    What ever you do, DO NOT fit porsche rear calipers.

    A lot of the conversions out there are made by complete morons who use boxster or 996 rear calipers, the pistons are far too small and you'll end up with a wooden pedal and much reduced stopping.

    Even the standard Boxster/996 front calipers are a little small, ideally you want the calipers from a 996 Turbo/GT2 or a lot of 997's (iirc) which have pistons that match the OEM Audi caliper in area.
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  8. B5QUAT
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    B5QUAT Member

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    [Jun 30, 2011]
    Cool, thanks. I'll keep an eye out for 996 Turbo ones. Would I need brackets for the front and rear to fit the Porsche callipers too?

    Also would those RS4/6 calipers fit my car? I seem to remember being told that you can't upgrade to RS4 as the hubs are different or something?? God, it's a bloody minefield this Audi brakes business. They shouldn't be allowed to make conversions that aren't a major improvement over standard. Why do so few tuners seem to offer a one hit conversion that ticks all boxes that isn't ridiculously priced?

    Also does anyone know what the hole spacing center to centre on the hub where the standard caliper mounts is? The guy on ebay selling those brackets asked me.
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  9. aragorn
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    aragorn "Stick a V8 in it!" Staff Member Moderator VCDS Map User

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    [Jun 30, 2011]
    Yeh, B5 S4, RS4 and all B6 on models use a wider bolt spacing, so you'd need to swap the uprights for those to fit.

    The only porsche calipers that will bolt streight to an Audi are those from a Cayenne, but again you'll need the later hubs. Everything else requires adaptors.

    Not many folk fit porsche rears, probably because either a) they think the front brakes do all the work so the rear doesnt matter (it does) or b) because the rear calipers contain the handbrake mechanism, and the porsche ones dont, leaving you without a handbrake.
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  10. B5QUAT
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    B5QUAT Member

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    [Jun 30, 2011]
    Haha. No handbrake! think I'll pass on that then! lol

    What would you say is the best conversion to go for then? Can't be arsed going for B6 uprights. Only just bought new b5 suspension, so sod that. Could I just change the hubs for later hubs and then go for Cayenne calipers?

    A mate of mine had an S2 with Porsche 997 (I think) GT3 fronts and 996 Turbo fronts on the back (or something like that). Are the S2 hubs like ours or completely different?
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  11. aragorn
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    aragorn "Stick a V8 in it!" Staff Member Moderator VCDS Map User

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    [Jun 30, 2011]
    We need to straighten out terminologies. The upright is the big piece of cast steel that everything attaches to (ie the calipers, track rod ends, suspension links etc), and houses the wheel bearing. The "hub" is the flange that the wheel bolts onto. Having just replaced all of the suspension doesnt really affect those parts at all...

    You need to change the uprights themselves, to the B6 or S4 variants. B6 ones are alloy so that helps a bit with weight. Your question is a bit confusing as you say you dont want to change the upright, then ask if you should change it and use cayenne calipers...

    S4 uprights will slot streight in, if you choose B6 ones, you need a different front lower control arm than you currently have.

    S2 has mac struts on the front, so its nothing like the B5. Still, no reason why you cant do it, so long as you did the appropriate bias calculations, and worked out something for a handbrake! Front calipers on the rear sounds a bit silly to me, it will push the bias far too much rearward and will really screw up the car under braking as the rear will want to lock up really easily.
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  12. Bradderz_1988
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    Bradderz_1988 Dont replace it, Upgrade it !!

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    [Jun 30, 2011]
    If your going to go for a good brake setup I'd look at getting s4 uprights as aragorn says would be logic to do so as they will bolt straight in, and then get rs4 callipers all round and upgrade the brake lines as the hp target is around rs4 levels so the brake setup would in theory have no problems stopping yours as the rs4 has a bigger lump up front and would house the handbrake cables at the rear iirc the rears on rs4 are 312mm disc.
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  13. aragorn
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    aragorn "Stick a V8 in it!" Staff Member Moderator VCDS Map User

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    [Jun 30, 2011]
    The problem with the RS4 stuff is disk replacement costs are stratospheric. I think the disks are ~£300 each and only available from Audi.

    IMO the B6 S4 setup is pretty good value and should give plenty performance especially once coupled with tasty pads.

    They have a 345x30mm disk on the front, with a big single piston sliding caliper, and then a 300x20mm disk on the rear. Brackets are also available to allow you to use facelift B5 S4 calipers with the B6 rear disks so it all bolts on with minimal fuss.

    They can be hard to find, but my brother did B6 S4 front calipers, disks and pads for under £250. He took a slightly different approach on the rear using B5 S4 Facelift calipers, with S8 carriers and 280x20mm disks, and that lot probably cost £150 all in.
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  14. B5QUAT
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    B5QUAT Member

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    [Jun 30, 2011]
    Ah sorry, that's me being thick. :think: I presumed by "upright" you meant the suspension strut as I guessed it must have a different connection at the bottom or something. All makes sense now.

    So, to recap, for the front I could get 345mm B6 S4 front discs and pads, B6 S4 front calipers, and some B6 uprights? What about braided hoses? Presume I would then need B6 S4 ones too, not b5 ones. BUT if I did this I'd need the B6 lower control arm, so I might be better going for B5 S4 uprights. Would these then allow me to fit the B6 S4 Calipers and disks?

    On the back I'd need B6 or B5 S4 rear uprights and discs and B5 s4 facelift rear calipers and pads (with brackets)

    OMG I think my brain has melted!
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  15. aragorn
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    aragorn "Stick a V8 in it!" Staff Member Moderator VCDS Map User

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    [Jun 30, 2011]
    B6 and B5 S4 uprights have the same wider caliper spacing, so either will work, B5 S4's are steel, and use the same big taper your existing ones have on the lower front arm. B6> are alloy and use a smaller taper so need a different arm.

    Use B5 hoses on the front. Rear will depend which way you go, but will in effect be custom.

    On the rear you dont need to touch the uprights, just get the B5 S4 facelift rear calipers, some spacer brackets from Trig on AudiSRS and the 300mm B6 rear disks. The B5 S4 facelift rear calipers arent easy to find though :( You can also use the B6 S4 rear calipers complete, however you need to install a spacer between the upright and the caliper, otherwise the offset is wrong, and you need to mess with the handbrake cables.
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  16. B5QUAT
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    B5QUAT Member

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    [Jul 1, 2011]
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  17. Bradderz_1988
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    Bradderz_1988 Dont replace it, Upgrade it !!

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    [Jul 1, 2011]
    Yep that's the upright !
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  18. jcb
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    jcb Active Member VCDS Map User

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    [Jul 1, 2011]
    I dont necessarily agree with all the details here.

    I had some Cayenne lug mounted calipers but the ball ache of spacers, adapters, mismatched rotors/bells, machined discs, offsets etc etc was too much for me to bare and I sold them.

    you can pick up a full set of B5 RS4 discs/calipers and pads for a song as most of the B5 RS4 boys have moved or are moving onto B7 calipers.
    for example I paid £300 for the lot 2-3 years ago when they didnt come around very often.
    I then sold the front discs and calipers by themselves for £200.

    I use the B5 RS4 rear calipers and discs on my 1.8tqs, bolt on. the pads and discs were used then and are still going strong.
    I picked up some 8 pot B7 RS4 calipers and two piece discs for £700. I had bought some brand new calipers and yellow stuff pads from Germany but sold the calipers for what I paid and kept the pads.
    bought some S4 uprights and front drive shafts for about £100
    spend some money on decent hoses (custom gets you what you want for a price).

    the front discs barely look they are run in, and I am running rock hard yellow pads. pads have done about 50% of there width in 3years and 25k miles.
    the rear pads will get changed next time round for its service.

    now I know the system I have is overkill and some people will tell you that 8 pots up front on a stock master cylinder will bugger up pedal feel and front rear bias.
    ****** I say!

    they look great, more importantly they have eye watering stopping power.
    Used in emergency situation twice now.
    They dont fade on the road.....ever as far as I can tell. the OEM ones had me very nervous after a sustained brake from 80 down to 0 on the motorway. last 50yds was an effort!

    the pedal feel is excellent, better than stock by far. better than a 996 911 I drove! (partially due to braided lines all round I am sure)
    1/2-3/4" depression before about an inch + of modulation then bites like a mantrap.

    total cost around £1000 (could be done in stages) and I have not touched them in 3 years, next cost will be rear pads which are pennies. dont expect to replace anything within the next 12-18 months.
    for comparison I bought the car with brand new OEM discs and pads which I replaced after 15 months as they were wafer thin. wasted money IMO.

    Stick with OEM unless you have a much larger budget than planned and like the bling (saying that, 8pots under 18"s do look the dogs danglies!)
    lots out there on forums and the bay


    Audi RS4 8 Pot Brembo Front Calipers & Brand New Pads | eBay UK

    these are a real bargain with B7 rears

    RS246.com Forum :: The World's #1 Audi R, S and RS Enthusiast Website • View topic - VGC B7 RS4 Front and Rear Brake set up!
    Last edited: Jul 1, 2011
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  19. B5QUAT
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    B5QUAT Member

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    [Jul 1, 2011]
    Thanks for all the feedback. I'm learning more and more here. Gradually putting together a shopping list. It appears the B6 S4 front discs are 345mm and with the bigger B6 calipers would I have any issues with wheel fitment? (I'm currently on 18s ET45)
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  20. aragorn
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    aragorn "Stick a V8 in it!" Staff Member Moderator VCDS Map User

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    [Jul 1, 2011]
    The cayenne calipers more or less bolt on, no spacers required you just need the appropriate bolts (M16 collar and M14 thread i think). The disks are tricky sure, but JHM do a bolt on disk if you dont want any faff, and they also sell the appropriate bolts.

    The problem with B5 RS4 stuff is the disks, Most sets floating around these days the disks are past it, and the disks are mental money from the dealer, easily pushing it into the territory of B7 upgrades and other bespoke setups.

    B7 calipers shouldnt mess up the bias, the pistons are sized appropriately for the master cylinder as they're designed for a B7 RS4, which uses more or less the same MC as the B5. The issues happen when people pluck calipers from AN Other car without a clue and make them fit thinking "They're 4 pots so they MUST be better than the standard single piston caliper!"

    The B6 S4 conversion can be done for sensible money, will be a huge improvement over stock, and ongoing costs are cheap as the disks are only 50quid and the pads are fitted to a huge number of Audis and are available cheaply in many compounds.

    B7 stuff would be awesome granted, but the sets i've seen sell on AudiSRS recently have gone for over a grand. They also give issues with wheel fitment, which the B6 items dont. The B6 S4 calipers fit under standard 17" S4 wheels, and will even go under the TQS boleros with a ~10mm spacer.
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  21. B5QUAT
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    B5QUAT Member

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    [Jul 1, 2011]
    Quick question for jcb.

    You say you bought S4 uprights and driveshafts (presume they were b5 S4?). Did you have to change the driveshafts? As I thought the standard ones would still fit.

    Also did the B7 calipers bolt straight onto these or did you have to fit anything else? I do tend to agree that 8 pots do look the mutt's nuts.
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  22. B5QUAT
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    B5QUAT Member

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    [Jul 1, 2011]
    Thanks aragorn, that answers my wheel clearance question.

    Think I will just stick to the B6 S4 option as I've spent silly money on the car already and need to save up for the turbo yet! lol
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  23. aragorn
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    aragorn "Stick a V8 in it!" Staff Member Moderator VCDS Map User

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    [Jul 1, 2011]
    So long as your car has 82mm wheel bearings and the larger CV spline (which it should if its a TQS or V6 model) then you can use your existing driveshafts.
    #22
  24. jcb
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    jcb Active Member VCDS Map User

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    [Jul 5, 2011]
    use TQS drive shafts with S4 outer CV joints into S4 uprights.
    Bolt on across the board. no spacing, shimming or tweaking.

    be aware though, you need to choose your wheels accordingly.
    my Rs6 shape 5 spoke 8x18" rims in ET40 didnt clear. even with 10mm spacers IIRC

    I now run ET24 8.5x18 B7 RS4 wheels (not the looky likey twin spoke ones!)
    give a nice wide and full track!
    #23
  25. aragorn
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    aragorn "Stick a V8 in it!" Staff Member Moderator VCDS Map User

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    [Jul 5, 2011]
    S4 outers wont fit a TQS shaft mate, The S4 driveshaft and CV use a larger spline than the TQS item.

    The standard TQS CV will go streight into an S4 upright however, you wont need to touch the driveshaft.
    #24
  26. jcb
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    jcb Active Member VCDS Map User

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    [Jul 5, 2011]
    well I guess mine dont fit then :)

    I actually fitted RS4 outers to S4 uprights on TQS drive shafts.
    still have the spare TQS outer CV's and relatively recently sold the RS4 inner CV's and drive shafts

    the outer spline through the flange is larger on the R/S4 but the inner is the same, TQS front drive shaft CV spline will fit in an S4 flange......but it will spin round by itself!! its much smaller

    at least mine was........

    as described here:
    http://www.audi-sport.net/vb/a4-s4-forum-b5-chassis/62789-more-anchors-pull-your-teeth-out.html
    #25
  27. aragorn
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    aragorn "Stick a V8 in it!" Staff Member Moderator VCDS Map User

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    [Jul 5, 2011]
    The S4 drive flange is exactly the same as the TQS one. They both have 82mm bearings and both use the same 4A0407615G drive flange.

    You car must have been messed with if it had the smaller 75mm bearing and drive flange.
    #26
  28. jcb
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    jcb Active Member VCDS Map User

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    [Jul 6, 2011]
    I doubt it. car was bone stock with one lady owner from new.

    But I wouldnt have bought the S4 shafts if I hadnt read other people doing the exact same thing.
    Would love to take credit for spotting it but as far as I recall it was common practice with people swapping uprights and fitting larger OEM brakes.
    #27
  29. lewiswlawrence
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    lewiswlawrence New Member

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    [Jul 6, 2011]
    JCB,

    Thank you for the great info. I recently fitted some S8 18” Avus wheels to my B5 S4 in preparation for a big brake upgrade in the future. I choose the wheels because they look very similar to the standard S4 17” Avus ones and I am trying for a discrete look. I love the idea of bolt on OEM disks and pads from elsewhere in the Audi range.

    Does anyone have any idea if the B7 RS4 callipers will work with the S8 18” Avus wheels on a B5 S4?
    -----
    Lewis
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  30. B5QUAT
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    B5QUAT Member

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    [Jul 6, 2011]
    Got prices now for discs, pads and calipers. Remarkably cheap too!

    Apparently you can't get the b5 S4 uprights new on the aftermarket now so looks like ebay or Audi only. Can't see them coming up on ebay too often so Audi might be the only option. Just had all new arms so fancied getting new.

    Will I also need caliper carriers or does the B6 caliper bolt straight to the B5 upright?
    #29
  31. aragorn
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    aragorn "Stick a V8 in it!" Staff Member Moderator VCDS Map User

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    [Jul 6, 2011]
    You need to do the CV swap on 1.8T FWD's, so it may well be "common" to swap the parts on a FWD (or a yank 1.8TQ), as they have the smaller bearing/hub.

    Both my TQS's have 82mm bearings and the corresponding larger CV joints, as does Marks. The difference is easy to spot, as the larger hub/CV uses an M16 bolt with a 17mm hex head, and the smaller hub/CV uses a M14 bolt and a 14mm hex head.

    Who knows why your car had the small ones, but ETKA says it shouldnt, and every TQS i've looked at personally has the larger parts fitted.

    Simple fact is that if you currently have 17mm hex heads on your existing driveshaft/hub bolt, the CV's will fit streight into an S4 upright.

    B5NUT:

    You need the complete B6 caliper/carrier assembly. Motorfactors and the like typically only supply the caliper body, but you need both parts.

    The calipers will bolt to a B5 S4 upright, or any B6 upright. They're also £220 each new from Audi, so used is probably significantly more viable...
    #30
  32. B5QUAT
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    B5QUAT Member

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    [Jul 6, 2011]
    Yes that was the problem, All German parts could supply the caliper but not the carrier. I'll have to look around for carriers. Would you say it's best just getting them from Audi? Can't see just the carrier on its own coming up second hand.
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  33. aragorn
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    aragorn "Stick a V8 in it!" Staff Member Moderator VCDS Map User

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    [Jul 6, 2011]
    Cheapest thing will be to find the whole caliper assembly used. The carriers are ~£140 each from Audi.

    Craig paid £80 for his B6 S4 calipers on ebay. Obviously they dont pop up every day though.
    Last edited: Jul 6, 2011
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  34. lewiswlawrence
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    lewiswlawrence New Member

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    [Jul 7, 2011]
    Folks,

    Does anyone know if the dimensions for the RS4 B7 front calipers are available anywhere? I have searched but can’t seem to find anything. Needless to say I don’t want to invest in a set without being sure they will fit!

    Thanks,
    -----
    Lewis
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  35. aragorn
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    aragorn "Stick a V8 in it!" Staff Member Moderator VCDS Map User

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    [Jul 7, 2011]
    I'd ask over on AudiSRS if anyone has run RS4 calipers on S8 wheels.

    You may need spacers, which may in turn give problems with arch clearance.
    #34
  36. jcb
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    jcb Active Member VCDS Map User

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    [Jul 7, 2011]
    minimum 18" wheels with <ET30 if you want 8 pots
    mine a gnats whisker away from the inner rim and have about 5-7mm clearance on ET24
    arches rolled, 235/40 profile tyres, KW v3 lowered to give a 10-15mm gap arch to tyre

    absolutely no rubbing regardless of how many bags of sand I put in. had 18 bags in the boot and passenger footwell the other day.
    had 10 2x2 slabs in the week before.....its a working vehicle
    #35
  37. lewiswlawrence
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    lewiswlawrence New Member

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    [Jul 10, 2011]
    Thanks for the info, I currently have exactly ET30. The S8 wheels are 40 and I am using 10 mm spacers, sounds like I will be a bit too tight just now, though the wheels look well shaped for callipers that are positioned further out from the centre than standard so I might get away with it. I could perhaps go 2mm thicker on the spacers without getting clearance issues in the arch. I am running 225x40x18 tyres with standard arches and standard ride height.

    I would feel a lot more comfortable if I could get some accurate sizes for the callipers, anyone seen a drawing anywhere?

    Getting a ways off topic here, I will start a new thread to ask over on the RS forum.
    -----
    Lewis
    #36
  38. jcb
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    jcb Active Member VCDS Map User

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    [Jul 12, 2011]
    its not the calipers its the internal shape of the wheel that is the limiting factor. some have much more material and could get away with ET30-35 on an 8.5J
    others need the full ET20 RS4 profile.
    lot of aftermarket ones will fit with higher offset and keep the wheel/tyre profile.

    225s on 8/8.5J at ET30 wheels will clear no problem
    I ran 245 on ET35 with no rubbing
    #37

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