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Discussion in 'Rants & Raves' started by SL11CKK, Sep 8, 2013.
Did you offer them a bacon butty is that what your not telling us
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The legal advice on here is priceless, I bet the duty solicitors are quaking in their boots! Don't confuse *a* caution with *the* caution...
You still haven't actually replied as to whether you were reported for any offences? If not, then you have nothing to worry about.
caution... " anything you say may be " etc, etc
I absolutely understand your frustration as I've had a couple of run ins with the police. Funniest was outside my mums place where I was parked on the road and a traffic policeman knocked telling me I was parked illegally and had to move. I stated that I was not parked illegally that I was aware of and if he could elaborate. The officer stated the white line I was stopped on denoted it was a clearway. I stated they were not and were an edge of carriageway marking. This got up his nose somewhat and he was very aggressive in demanding why I thought I knew different to a traffic policeman. His face was a picture when I reffered him to the TSRGD2002 and told him I was a lighting and signage engineer.
He cleared off very sharpish. Turned out they were sat in their favorite hiding place trying to issue tickets but cars were slowing to pass my parked car so they weren't doing good business. I logged a formal complaint over it as he was blatantly lying in a bid to issue speeding tickets.
Corruption obviously exists no doubt about that..
More policing cuts ftw
basically the fatty wanted your number and you didnt play ball. so next time get her your key and just wait it out till shes done with it
She was very aggressive in taking my address (probably the stalking type)
im sure that was her trying to seduce you with her uniform powers.
you could always serious end up saying you felt threatened and scared so you decided to get out of this situation and possibly say you didnt believe at the time they were genuine police officer
All depends on what the custody Sgt said as all their occurrences go through him/her for action at COP.
They have 6mths from date of offence to summons you to court (present to court)
Court Summons | Motoring Offences
I still think you should turn up at a police station to put accross your version of events to cover yourself, instead of waiting for something that might or might not happen?
Judging by the poor communications skills of your posting, the derogative language, and what I sense is an 'attitude', it is you with the problem not the police. Suggest in future you say less and not write at all, for you are never going to win battles with the likes of the police or other similar agencies.
Sorry Artimus that's not correct. The Police can stop any vehicle to check that the driver has the correct documents. Ie driving licence, insurance, tax, Mot and that the vehicle belonged to them or they had permission You wouldn't get a form for this. The only time you would get any paperwork is if you or the vehicle was searched, you were issued a fixed penalty, reported for an offence or your vehicle was confiscated for you not having a driving licence or insurance (S165 RTA)
Ok to start with it sounds like a bit of a misunderstanding on both parts.
1. I can't see a reason why you would use your horn in this situation.
2. You can't just drive on the pavement. That is an offence. However not a serious one relatively. Saying that you have a licence and so you say what you can do probably hasn't helped things.
If they were looking at prosecuting you for an offence of fraud or not having insurance you would have been cautioned and reported for those offences and your vehicle would have been seized (obviously the Police can't allow you to continue your journey if you haven't got insurance) Section 165 road traffic act.
If the Police were looking to search your vehicle or arrest you etc... and you refused to get out of your vehicle then they have a power to use force to carry out that section in law under Section 117 Police and criminal evidence act. So if this was the case then yes they could smash your window lawfully.
I'm confused by the outcome of this. What did they ask you to sign? A pocket notebook or a form?
What were you told would happen next?
To sign their pocket signbook
Unless the person was arrested it has nothing to do with the custody sergeant. A caution can also be issued without attendance at a custody suite or the person being arrested.
A caution is that... A caution. However it does go on your 'criminal' record but it is recorded as a caution not a conviction. The recipient of that information (employers doing checks etc...) can use that information as they see it.
What were you told would happen next. Did they caution you. ie... Say you do not have to say anything but it may harm your defence... etc etc? you had no paperwork right?
Yeah they read me that and thereafter said i should wait for the court summons through the post. Im still waiting for the summons to come through
Right if that's the case then it sounds like you have been reported for offences. If that is the case then the officers will have submitted paperwork to a department and that department will send you a letter. It is for the officers to report the incident and not to ultimately make the decision about what the outcome will be. If it is for the offence of driving on the pavement I wouldn't worry to much about it. Its a relatively minor offence. If its for the offence of dangerous driving it would have to be the case that your driving 'fell far below that of a competent driver'
The next thing for you to do is wait for the letter. It normally reaches the recipient within 2 weeks. You may even be offered to go on a driving improvement scheme. With respect this may be a good idea.
If I were you I'd take this all as a big learning point.
1. Don't beep at the Police. You don't know what they are doing at the time and quite a lot of their time is spent dealing with serious stuff. There are better ways as some of the other guys have mentioned. Politely ask a question.
2. Don't drive on the pavement. Pavements are for pedestrians and its illegal for the simple reason that people get knocked over.
3. Be civil to the Police, it sounds like you were quite awkward and answered back. Most of the Police are there to make the world a better place.
4. If you don't understand what is going on... ask.
5. get a copy of the highway code. Knowledge is power. Not to get one over on the Police but to be a better driver.
Its hard to comment when I wasn't there but I hope that helps.
Always nice to have someone with more knowledge to put forward their view, good work _Zerocool_!
No probs. If anyone ever has any questions with regards to the Police please ask. I'll help explain where I can.
This is the one to read and understand.
I am quite shocked by some anti-police sentiment and judgemental comments on here. There is only one side of the story (the 'offender') given and the OP had committed an offence, then refused to get out of his car......
Be polite, cooperative and respectful and there is little to worry about (unless you break the law)
No need to apologise to me - it's a forum of opinions.
I was told by a Traffic Officer some years ago - during a stop for tinted windows - that ANY stop gives entitlement to a Stop form, search or not. At that time I refused his offer of a stop form because he seemed genuine about his reasons for the stop, didn't make me remove them & didn't have to inform me of my rights.
I was subsequently stopped a couple of years after that by a young bobby in a Panda car for "making a u-turn when I saw them parked up"! I'd actually just dropped a work colleague at home and made the u-turn to go home myself! it was 05:00, I was tired, never saw them until after I'd made the turn & still have no idea where they were hiding. I was narked at his reason for stopping me, so I made his job as hard as I could without breaking any laws. He was mightily p****d off when he'd thought he'd finished showing off to his colleague & I demanded a stop form. He said pretty much what you said - we only issue stop forms when we search & we haven't searched your car so you're not entitled to one - I stuck to my guns & was issued a form, which I believe I still have. If he hadn't given me one I'd have no record of the stop and could be harassed on a daily basis.
As I said - I haven't been stopped for a few years now, but if I am - and I have no problem with officers doing their duty - & I'm getting attitude (which some young officers have in spades) ...I'll be demanding written evidence of the encounter.
BTW: can you point out the part where it says I'm only entitled to a Stop Form when searched? I don't see it. http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1988/52/section/165
Stop and search procedure and policy is not covered by S165 RTA. That is in relation to driving without insurance. It is also relevant to driving other than in accordance with a licence as most of the time an insurer would not insure someone who doesn't have a licence.
As above I gave S165 as an example of when you may receive a form. This form would be in relation to the insurance offence and not a stop search.
Stop search powers are not covered by a single piece of legislation but a few. For example S23 Misuse of drugs act or S1 Police and criminal evidence act dependant on the object of the search and the information received upon which the search was acted.
Please don't use my offer to help as an excuse to try and bad mouth the Police further. I have nothing to gain from it and it is my knowledge not that of a friend or a Police officer I once spoke to, based on over a decade of experience.
The Police are not the enemy. The enemy are those that try and steal what we worked so hard to get in the first place. Whats the one thing tackling these criminals? That's right, the Police.
wtf... you drove over a pedestrian footpath to pass a police car sat in the middle of the road... did you not think they may have been dealing with something. lol. Sorry but you should have also signed the big fat highway code they threw at your head also!!
Qualified to driver does not mean you can driver anywhere you desire. this is fail
There is probably a section on the Police Officers Forum called "Audi Drivers and Attitude"
I don't know where you are getting your information from, I suspect you have been listening to some friends, who have been listening to friends.
I have had more complaints than you could shake a stick at!! At one time, I had 9 on the go at the same time. Most are treated as a "tactical complaint", which is how this complaint would be treated- (he is making a complaint to muddy the waters in the event of a court case)
In the event of a complaint being made, the officers will be interviewed by the Professional Standars Dept, where they will no doubt say that they don't know what the guy is complaining about, and the investigators will interview the complainant. There are no independant witnesses, and the complaint will be unfounded. It really is no skin off their nose if he does make a complaint.
It will go on their file, but it won't ever be used against them, since in this case, it will be unfounded.
Just like if you were arrested for something you DID do, but they couldn't prove it,- they would have a record of the arrest, but they could never use it against you in the future.
Furthermore, if there is a car on a road, with a car behind, which goes around the inside, it doesn't need anyone to watch whether the wheels mount the curb; it is quite obvious that it must have! It is really easy for various people here to say "go not guilty", but it isn't your licence in the balance! And when he is found guilty of mounting the curb, it won't be you paying the fine, and the court costs!
If an officer asks you to get out of the car, you ARE obliged to. The use of force may be used to get you out of the car, though to be fair, most cops would try to talk you out. Perhaps, rather than listening to Barrack room lawyers, you could ring a solicitor, or C.A.B. and ask them.
Oh, and Bez, could I suggest that you log in to the Citizens Advice Bureau web site, if you look, you will see that the police do NOT have to give you a form for stop and account. It is possible that some forces may have a policy which suggests forms should be issued, primarily to prove that it is not just minority ethnic groups who are being stopped. Your post was also unhelpful!
I don't think this post is helpful either, it reads that Police officers treat complaints from members of the public with contempt. Such a shame, I am sure it is not really like that.
It's ridiculous that we pay these people to behave like this. I appreciate they do a difficult job but in the line of their duties they are bound to come across some ordinary people who are not sure what is going on or what they are expected to do. At these times surely it is their job to explain what is happening and what they expect said ordinary person to do, to keep them and teh Police safe and without in any way putting them in a state of fear and alarm or else they are inflaming whatever the situation is.
Coattsey joked about causing a riot, what if you had freaked out and had to be restrained but maybe others were around and got involved too, instant fracas and they only have themselves to blame, what do they train these peple at Police college?
Another thing of note, I am sure in the highway code your horn is supposed to be used as a warning. Now we all use it incorrectly when some nutjob gets in the way and we want them moved but that aside, in this case you were warnng them of your presence, next step should have been for them to tell you what they wanted you to do, wait there, drive around them, complete a U turn, otherwise how the H3ll are you supposed to know.
Actually V, you may not use your horn during the hours of darkness; since you have obviously not read the highway code for a while, i will remind you:
The horn. Use only while your vehicle is moving and you need to warn other road users of your presence. Never sound your horn aggressively. You MUST NOT use your horn
while stationary on the road
when driving in a built-up area between the hours of 11.30 pm and 7.00 am
Since this occured at 1am, and he was stationary for a while behind the officers, he contravened both sub sections of that law.
I understand I did couple of things wrong however if you drive by this road everyday youll see that when an on coming car is coming you have no choice but to get on the pavement due to it being very narrow. Also the pavement in question is a dropped which also happens to give access to other peoples drive.
This road also happens to have a bend with cars parked so making is blind for either party to see therefore you have no choice, but to get on it. It also happens to have single yellow however cars are still parked regardless of parking restriction. This is probably because it happens to be on an estate.
As for beeping the police - I didnt do it to p them off as others may think and it wasnt a long one either. Just a quicky.
If Police tries to get you out of your car by pulling hard on your door handle and trying to reach for your keys without even knocking and telling you to come out, would you co-operate?
Hence I refused.
Ive been pulled over twice before and never did they treat me like that.
The police do have the right to take your keys and get you out of the Car in case you're wanted for anything else, or in the worst case incident, have a weapon on you.
As stated previously, you know what police are like, it is illegal to mount a pavement full stop, Hence when you do your test, you bash the curb... Fail.
But what the hell... In the words of a young teen nowadays... "YOLO"
There are lots of ifs and buts when driving I think most would agree and I don't think what you did was much different to what most people would do. Your horn is meant to be a warning tool, of your presence, maybe your not supposed to use it at night (had forgotten about that) but isn't the highway code 'advice for drivers= and Not the law? So what they (VOSA, Goverment) are giving you is guidance which can't possibly take into account every eventuallity. I do remember not being allowed to bump the kerb on 3 point turns when learning but I did think it would ahve been OK to do what you did as there is also something about keeping up the flow of traffic and as you said you did it carefully with no pedestrians present, at a time of low risk and when the road was otherwise obstructed, I think if it came to court you could argue a good case. All those lorries that park on the pavement for deliveries, somtimes just 2 wheels but sometimes all four, taxis also have a habit of parking on pavements, they get criticised for breaking paving slabs but I don't see them getting carted off by a swat team, not is Scotland anyway
There's always going to be right and wrong answers to this, though there are laws in place with driving on the pavement Etc Etc, however there are also things to say, he did it safely and so on. Then them to counter with other things, horrible circle of events.
Guess he just got a bad police officer on a bad night.
Hi "V" If you read The Introduction, in the Highway code, you will read this:
Many of the rules in The Highway Code are legal requirements, and if you disobey these rules you are committing a criminal offence. You may be fined, given penalty points on your licence or be disqualified from driving. In the most serious cases you may be sent to prison. Such rules are identified by the use of the words âMUST/MUST NOTâ. In addition, the rule includes an abbreviated reference to the legislation which creates the offence. See an explanation of the abbreviations.
you will see, in my previous post, the highlighted words, "you must not", which means that it IS law.
State of Play, I'm sorry you read my earlier post, and thought that I was treating complaints with contempt. I have never been contemptuous of a complaint, I was simply correcting Yolo, who had written (albeit badly) the following:
Anyway in my opinion make a formal complaint about the officer to the ipcc as every officer has 3 complaints against them before they are bought before they are looked into for any misconduct so you never know it could make things really hard for the officer they may have been naughty in the past. :thumbup:
Hi "E", cheers for the comments, very educational! I think you have sussed that I haven't read the Highway code recently, of course I am using my superior memory functions which more than compensate
- evidently not!! lol
im not going to blind you with science, but your not obliged to give your name unless you have commuted a crime, when RT Policy enforcers try to frighten you with big words, you simply ask them if they are on there Oath Constable, when they say they are then ask them if your under arrest or are you free to go, stand your grounds and never surrender that card they made you get to act in commerce,
You are obliged to give your name, date of birth and address is you are suspected of committing an offence not necessarily a crime unless you think riding a bicycle without any lights at night is a crime and therefore the rider a criminal?
You are also obliged to give your name and address if the Police suspect you have been acting antisocially. refusing is an offence.
So if you are suspected of committing any offence including driving on the pavement or illegal use of horn you have to give your details.
If you don't you cannot be reported for said offence. If this is the case you can be arrested under Code G of the Police and criminal evidence act to establish your full details.
It is also an offence not to give a Police officer your driving documents upon request.
So if you are stopped by the Police and you are the driver you have to give them your driving licence or your name etc...
You can also be detained without being arrested for a search.
I don't know where some of you are sourcing your information????
If the Police could not and did not ask anyone for their details people who steal your car or drive without insurance (would you want to be involved in a collision with someone without insurance) or a licence (licences are there for a reason so that there are competent drivers on the road) or an MOT (would you want unsafe vehicles on the road which may fail at any second) etc etc would go completely unchallenged.
If I got stopped in my car I would be happy that the Police are stopping cars in my area to check that they are in the right hands. I have an S3 and criminals quite like these at the moment. If mine got stolen I would want the Police to stop it and do checks on the driver to find out it wasn't me. Quite a lot of the time stolen cars are stopped by the Police before they are reported stolen.
If you've done nothing wrong whats the problem with co-operating with the Police? They are on your side. If they've stopped you because you've committed an offence its your own fault and not theirs for stopping you.
have to stop you there! It's not a legal requirement in England to carry your driving documents or any other form of I.D. as it is in some other Countries. So you Do Not have to give over your driving documents when requested by a Police Officer, as you may not have them with you.
That's why there are such things as Producers.