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Our EA288 2.0tdi 184PS Development thread..

Discussion in 'New A3/S3 (8V Chassis)' started by ABYSS, Nov 11, 2013.

  1. ABYSS
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    ABYSS Andrew - Diesel Tuning UK Site Sponsor

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    [Nov 11, 2013]
    if youre driving a 2.0 184ps Audi A3 then this thread should be of interest to you..

    At the weekend we headed down to Shark Performance to use their dyno, and also look at combining our knowledge to see what we could achieve..

    This is an ongoing project which ill update regularly..

    I posted this on another forum earlier today

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    oh yeah, the dyno sheet..

    [​IMG]

    and a video..

    DTUK VRS 2.0 TDI 184 PS - YouTube
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  3. arad85
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    arad85 Active Member

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    [Nov 11, 2013]
    Hi Andrew - thanks for posting - very interesting.

    Looking at the dyno (and please correct me if I'm wrong, I'm new to this), you have lowered the RPM for peak power by ~250rpm and also a broadly similar shaped torque curve (although it is slightly higher at the 2k rpm level). Any feedback on how this affects the driving of the car? I think the vRS is FWD... can you get the power down through the wheels? Any feelings for how this would behave on a quattro?

    Also any ideas what the kink is between 2500 and 3000 rpm? It seems strange and affects all curves equally...
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  4. ABYSS
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    ABYSS Andrew - Diesel Tuning UK Site Sponsor

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    [Nov 11, 2013]
    you've read the graph correctly, first of all I'm not sure why it dips between 2500/3000rpm, as this isn't present when you drive the car, intact the car feels very smooth and pulls like a train,

    Traction isn't too bad to be honest, as it all does depends on the behaviour of ones right foot, and no issues getting the power the front wheels.

    Regarding a Quattro going back to when we tune the 170 Quattro's i would say that this tune is going to make for an entertaining drive :)
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    GNJ_Motorsport Site Sponsor Site Sponsor

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    [Nov 11, 2013]
    Great work between you :)

    Really looking forward to seeing this engine develop as more mods come out for it :)
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  6. snowfree52
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    snowfree52 Full LED baby !

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    [Nov 11, 2013]
    are you suggesting that you're holding back because the car is FWD ?

    Does that mean we could see 240hp or more on a 4WD ?
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  7. ABYSS
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    ABYSS Andrew - Diesel Tuning UK Site Sponsor

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    [Nov 11, 2013]
    no, I'm saying that you should expect a 29% increase :)
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  8. arad85
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    arad85 Active Member

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    [Nov 11, 2013]
    I think Andrew is saying that with quattro it will be easier to floor the pedal and not get spinning wheels...

    At least that's what I'm hoping he's saying :busted_cop:
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  9. snowfree52
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    snowfree52 Full LED baby !

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    [Nov 12, 2013]
    OK, but you talked about 235hp, that made the car undriveable.

    Then showed 220hp on the dyno

    could you develop ? Is 235hp a map available on the tuning box ?
    Last edited: Nov 12, 2013
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  10. ABYSS
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    ABYSS Andrew - Diesel Tuning UK Site Sponsor

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    [Nov 12, 2013]
    [​IMG]

    Thats right, you've read it correctly. Purchase a DTUK Petrol or Diesel Tuning System between now and the 31st of December 2013 and youre in with a chance of receiving a FULL REFUND from us for the full cost of the system.




    The draw will be made on January the 3rd 2014, with the winner being named on our Facebook page.




    This offer is open to our retail customers only
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  11. ABYSS
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    ABYSS Andrew - Diesel Tuning UK Site Sponsor

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    [Nov 12, 2013]

    the point i was making is that on the dyno we have seen a 29.7% increase in power, if this is then related to the 184ps the figures would be 238bhp
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  12. arad85
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    arad85 Active Member

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    [Nov 12, 2013]
    Has anyone done some before/after on acceleration times - both 0-62 and the more interesting 30-50-70 times?

    EDIT: on this or any other version of your (or anyone elses) tuning box...
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  13. s33nyboy12
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    s33nyboy12 Well-Known Member

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    [Nov 12, 2013]
    similar to the figures Ben achieves with Volvo d5 engine fwd though that is 2.4d 5 cylinder........

    one thing i will say is Ben @ sharks dyno is top notch and trustworthy !
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  14. snowfree52
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    snowfree52 Full LED baby !

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    [Nov 13, 2013]
    sounds good to me
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  15. snowfree52
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    snowfree52 Full LED baby !

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    [Nov 13, 2013]
    well just tried launch control on my standard 184 :

    had a problem with 0 to 60 (I cut too early)

    so 0 to 56 in 6,55s
    147HP at the wheel
    max accel 0,77G

    will try to get the 0 to 60 tomorrow
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  16. arad85
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    arad85 Active Member

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    [Nov 13, 2013]
    Bloomin' 'eck! 6.55 to 56 - perhaps the 0-62 at 6.8 is pretty much spot on. Shows the quattro (and I guess launch control/stronic) helps - 100kg heavier than the manual and faster....

    BTW: how did you measure all that and are you going to "invest" in a tuning box?
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  17. snowfree52
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    snowfree52 Full LED baby !

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    [Nov 13, 2013]
    doing it with dynolicious on my iphone,

    you can get a review here : iPhone Dynolicious Software Better than G-Tech? -Garage419 - YouTube

    I've been using it on other cars and always had good results
    on my previous car, dynolicious was bang on with the results I had when I took my car to a proper dyno.

    about the tuning kit: I will invest in one at some point, not sure when
    Last edited: Nov 13, 2013
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  18. arad85
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    arad85 Active Member

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    [Nov 13, 2013]
    Nice - thanks - didn't know about that!

    Please keep us updated if you do invest :)
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  19. snowfree52
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    snowfree52 Full LED baby !

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    [Nov 14, 2013]
    Yes sure ! ;)

    Andrew : I heard you're testing 3 way tuning boxes, should we wait for them ?

    what are the pro and cons ?
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  20. ABYSS
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    ABYSS Andrew - Diesel Tuning UK Site Sponsor

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    [Nov 15, 2013]
    We aren't offering the 3 channel, we're continuing with the 2 channel
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  21. ABYSS
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    ABYSS Andrew - Diesel Tuning UK Site Sponsor

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    [Jan 23, 2014]
    Now the vRS has a few more miles under its belt we thought we'd take it back to the dyno..


    [​IMG]

    232.9bhp and 368.6lbft/501nm - map 4 plus 1
    #20
  22. desertstorm
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    desertstorm Well-Known Member

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    [Jan 23, 2014]
    Well there are some really funny things with the figures you have quoted.
    On the initial testing at Shark you got 141 bhp at the wheel and 179.2 at the flywheel. the 179.2 sounds reasonable for a 184 bhp car but if you work out the transmission loss thats 21% ?? 179 * 0.79 = 141 which is a daft figure for a FWD car like than and more what I would expect on a quattro.
    On the second run you had 183bhp at the wheel and 221 bhp at the flywheel thats a 17% loss 221 * 0.83 = 183. A more realistic figure but still high and the transmission has suddenly improved it's efficiency by 4%.

    Then to go to the results you have just posted the car is now making 206 bhp at the wheels when the previous best was only 183 bhp so it's improved 11% over what it was doing earlier 183 x 1.11 = 203 bhp .
    It must be the transmission losses have dropped a lot more to free up all that extra power.
    But no, if you look at the transmission losses on the seconds run 233 x 0.88 = 205 so the calculated transmission loss is 12% which is what I would expect.
    Going to a different dyno is a waste of time everybody knows some dynos are more accurate than others.Some are wildly OTT .They are useful only as a comparison between two runs to see the effect of a change.
    Any attempt to try and calculate the actual flywheel power is only ever going to be a guess, the only way to do that is on an engine dyno.
    If you work on a 12% transmission loss the first run at shark 141bhp would be 141 / 0.88 = 160 bhp pretty poor and the second 183 / 0.88 = 208 bhp thats a 23% difference 160 / 0.77 . The first run was obviously low so I would question the 23% improvement.

    Just out of interest how much pressure is the pump calling for in a standard car and how much are you asking it to do to get these improvements .

    Karl.
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  23. ABYSS
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    ABYSS Andrew - Diesel Tuning UK Site Sponsor

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    [Jan 23, 2014]
    We can sit and analyse figures all night and I agree it's no good comparing any 2 different dynos is fruitless .. I know that if we went to a third dyno the figures and % would yet again be different.

    We've used this particular dyno for the last 8 years and the figures are always consistent.

    I can't answer your question regarding the fuel pump pressure
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  24. s33nyboy12
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    s33nyboy12 Well-Known Member

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    [Jan 23, 2014]
    I'm not backing up abyss and his figures as he and I know we have had our differences previously..........
    However figures aside or calculations aside, I know Ben @ sharks dyno is accurate so therefore I would believe the claimed tuning end result.

    Sean
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  25. desertstorm
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    desertstorm Well-Known Member

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    [Jan 24, 2014]
    This guy seems to be trying pretty hard and he is nowhere near 6.8 seconds only manages 7.4 with launch control.

    2013 Å koda Octavia RS Combi 184 HP 0-100 km/h & 0-100 mph Acceleration - YouTube
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  26. arad85
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    arad85 Active Member

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    [Jan 24, 2014]
    Aaaaaaaaaand that's why you spend extra on a quattro :)

    The quattro times are quicker than the FWD, despite the extra 100kg. You can see in that video the tyres losing traction - 184PS/350NM is a LOT to get down through 2 tyres....
    #25
  27. desertstorm
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    desertstorm Well-Known Member

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    [Jan 24, 2014]
    Looking at the the two dyno runs there is a noticeable dip in power that occurs from 2750 to 3250 rpm. I wonder if this is related to the inablity of the fuel pump to provide sufficient pressure/ flow for the requested demand.
    The Pump used is a CP4.1 with a single barrel .The designation R35 refers to the capacity of the pump. The pumps have various size pistons and different strokes to alter the capacity.

    Inside the HPFP - TDIClub Forums

    If you look at the pump on a 3.0 V6 they use a cp4.2 rated at R65 nearly twice the capacity for only 240bhp.
    The pump used in the VRS is used across many other engines in the VAG range from the 1.6 through to the 2.0 engines.
    It's in the interest of the manufacturers to size the pump at a level that just does the job. Larger capacity pumps take more power to run so impacting fuel economy etc.
    With this kind of tuning box they rely on upping the pump pressure to get more fuel flow. If the car currently calls for 1700 bar when running flat out and you want 10% more power you need more pressure If you raise the pressure to 1870 bar that will give you roughly 10% more fuel but obviuosly there is a limit to how much pressure you want to ask for.
    This tuning box uses a second channel to massage the boost signal to produce some more boost to try and keep the AFR reasonable and the EGT's down as well as looking after the DPF a bit but at the end of the day it's fuel that gives power so when there is talk of 30% improvements you know thats never going to happen with this kind of box as the fuel pressure would have to be off the scale.
    You can get large improvements in the mid range performance with big gains in fuel pressure and boost over what the car would normally have and this can be seen in the dyno plots.
    I agree that the final run on the shark dyno at 220bhp sounds plausible. Going from 184bhp to 220bhp would be a 17 % improvement and going from say 1700 bar that would mean the pump pressure would be around 2050 bar. 1700 / 0.83 = 2048.
    The CP4 pump is designed for 2000 bar max .
    The reason I asked about pump pressure is there is a big issue with these pumps in the USA, probably related to the poor quality of their diesel and the money saving approach that is taken with these pumps that are no where near as reliable as the old school CP1 , CP3 pumps.
    These boxes have a place in the tuning world but I don't think it's for out and out performance. On a remap if you want more fuel you probably will increase the pump pressure a little but most of the gains come from injecting for longer. It's the pressure the pump is generating that wears them out not the volume of fuel it's flowing.

    Karl.
    Last edited: Jan 24, 2014
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  28. snowfree52
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    snowfree52 Full LED baby !

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    [Jan 25, 2014]
    video I made after fitting the box :

    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 15, 2014
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  29. arad85
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    arad85 Active Member

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    [Jan 25, 2014]
    Just before anyone gets uber excited by snowfree52s post... those are km/h on his speedo, not mph :D
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  30. snowfree52
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    snowfree52 Full LED baby !

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    [Jan 25, 2014]
    if those were mph, I would've wet myself :ninja:
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  31. lee_fr200
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    lee_fr200 Active Member

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    [Jan 25, 2014]
    Still very good for a derv
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  32. arad85
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    arad85 Active Member

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    [Mar 6, 2014]
    Out of interest Andrew (as I may well have one of your boxes now) which setting on your box did you get the max dyno figures from?

    snowfree52: what are you finding your box best set to?
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  33. snowfree52
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    snowfree52 Full LED baby !

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    [Mar 6, 2014]
    4+1 for the moment, 4+2 has bad fuel economy
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  34. arad85
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    arad85 Active Member

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    [Mar 6, 2014]
    Thanks. Strangely (or perhaps not!), mine has come preset to 4+1....
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  35. ABYSS
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    ABYSS Andrew - Diesel Tuning UK Site Sponsor

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    [Mar 6, 2014]
    Map 4 plus 1 is what I recommend :)

    I took the liberty to preset your kit to that setting
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  36. ABYSS
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    ABYSS Andrew - Diesel Tuning UK Site Sponsor

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    [Mar 17, 2014]
    we took the Skoda back to the dyno again this weekend, it now has 3,800 miles on the clock and it seams to be loosening up nicely..


    This should be of interest to a few of you :)


    This run was using map 3 plus 1...

    [​IMG]

    240bhp and 372.4lbft / 505nm!! at 2625rpm

    we then ran it on the usual map 4 plus 1.

    [​IMG]

    237bhp and 370.7lbft / 504nm at 2306rpm
    #35
  37. arad85
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    arad85 Active Member

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    [Mar 17, 2014]
    I've still not fitted mine (the wiring loom is in though!!). Only done 602 miles.... I'm doing my best to get as many miles on as soon as possible but I'm not ding too well!

    BTW: is map 4 the one that gives best boost at lower revs?
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  38. snowfree52
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    snowfree52 Full LED baby !

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    [Mar 18, 2014]
    Andrew, How is map 3 to drive ?

    I thought map 4 was the one that gave the best torque/power
    #37
  39. arad85
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    arad85 Active Member

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    [Mar 22, 2014]
    Thank you :)

    Even though I've had the box 2 weeks, I only fitted the box today (when I changed the insurance over, they wouldn't put the box on the insurance unless I had it, so I ordered it 2 weeks ago). A bit less than recommended 1000 at 850 miles on the clock, but I'd had long enough waiting!

    Wow is all I can say. Turns a very nice "fast" car into a very nice "very fast" car. The surprise comes not just with the acceleration (it is now very quick off a standing start once you are past 1500rpm) but the fact it is still pulling like a tractor with no sign of giving up as you go into the illegal speed area....

    Money very well spent IMHO.
    #38
  40. ABYSS
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    ABYSS Andrew - Diesel Tuning UK Site Sponsor

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    [Mar 22, 2014]
    I thought you'd like it ;)

    The feedback were getting from Audi VW Skoda and Seat owners running the latest 2.0 150/184 has all been fantastic :)
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  41. arad85
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    arad85 Active Member

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    [Mar 22, 2014]
    Umm.... yes... I do.... :D
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