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only 325 bhp!

Discussion in 'A3/S3 Forum (8L Chassis)' started by edward_harris, Dec 19, 2007.

  1. edward_harris
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    edward_harris s3 gone now a shiney red evo 6

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    [Dec 19, 2007]
    had the car rolling roaded today at power engineering, was expecting at least 350bhp, only came out at 325bhp. Not very pleased. Also when i was driving home there was loads of flat spots which i have been having for a while now. Ive spoken to APS, and im emailing a copy of the graph to them and they are going to have a look at the car after Christmas! Not pleased, i did say to they right from the beginning, i wanted 350 - 360 bhp and they recommended the kit. Also had the rods done to cope with it being over 350bhp, so have they been a wast of money?
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  3. voorhees
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    voorhees Moderator Staff Member Moderator

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    [Dec 19, 2007]
    Isn't there a number of factors which can produce an incorrect measurement?
    #2
  4. ChriS3
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    ChriS3 hud at ye bam

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    [Dec 19, 2007]
    Yup, ambient temps, airflow, heatsoak, tyre pressure, air pressure, etc. etc.

    Did they do any logging or scanning for faults?
    #3
  5. mat20vt
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    mat20vt Member

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    [Dec 19, 2007]
    no two rollers would giv the same. i got 280bhp on my golf, at awesome, then at westec, 303bhp
    #4
  6. glen_jai
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    glen_jai Member

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    [Dec 19, 2007]
    I think dyno figures can vary dramatically.

    One chap I spoke to who had the gt28rs kit fitted to his TT was making 330 on the rollers he had it mapped on, then a more modest 303bhp at Awesome gti.

    Don't know why, but I'd always trust the lowest reading dyno.
    Also, I would also compare by power @wheels. The estimation of crank power can vary depending on the parameters set on the dynos.
    #5
  7. dummi
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    dummi smoking a6

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    [Dec 19, 2007]
    depends which correction factors they use their are a few standard ones assuming they used any at all
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  8. simch
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    simch Active Member

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    [Dec 19, 2007]
    What boost was it running on the rollers.....?
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  9. Ess_Three
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    Ess_Three Active Member

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    [Dec 20, 2007]
    Personally, I never trust the dyno from the place who is writing the code for the re-map or selling the 'upgrade' as it's in their interest to have some good results come up.

    An independant dyno is the only way, in my view.


    Too many 'tuners' are known to quote figures that cannot be reproduced elsewhere..which to me means you haven't got the power they tell you you've got.

    I've seen Dubsport 1.8T Mk2 GTIs make 250 BHP when their Dubsport graph showing 310 BHP (on a K04 I may add!)
    The reason given why the numbers weren't made: The cooling fans are too small.
    My old S3 made 280 BHP and 330 lb-ft the same day!


    I've been sold so much ***** over the years that didn't make the clamied numbers: Cats + exhaust, re-maps, 'power gaskets' etc...


    The only way, in my view, is to be sceptical...find an independant dyno that made standard numbers when the car was standard...and pay for a blind independant run.
    Or take the lowest number as the figure...and any more as a bonus.
    #8
  10. edward_harris
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    edward_harris s3 gone now a shiney red evo 6

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    [Dec 20, 2007]
    the tempature was about 5 degrees yesterday! so its nothing to do with that, also checked all the tyre pressures, i just dont think the cars runnig right or the mapping isnt right. There are loads of flat spots when it comes on full boost!
    #9
  11. ChriS3
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    ChriS3 hud at ye bam

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    [Dec 20, 2007]
    What were your before and after wheel BHP figures?

    And have you bypassed the N249 valve? This was on its way out on my old S3 and causing odd boosting and flat spots. But first thing I'd check is the fault codes and see what's going on.
    #10
  12. simch
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    simch Active Member

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    [Dec 20, 2007]
    Yours has not been on the rollers before Ed, as the map on your coonversion is done by MRC.
    If you have flat spots etc, you should get it looked at. BTW do you have a stock DV on there or did you buy a forge one?
    I had loads of problems with the bailey one on my IHI and reverted to a stock one now and its been fine for 7k miles.
    #11
  13. god_thats_quick
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    god_thats_quick Numptie of the highest order

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    [Dec 20, 2007]
    Any chance of you putting the graph up on here, would be interesting to see what it looks like etc. I'm very warey of anything other than the wheel power figures from any dyno.
    #12
  14. edward_harris
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    edward_harris s3 gone now a shiney red evo 6

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    [Dec 20, 2007]
    yea the dump valve has been changed, for one APS put on it. Also it was boosting at 1.55 bar on the rollers so its about 1.6 on the road. Before when i had the remapp at AMD it came out at 270bhp. Whats the n249 valve? Also the guy did say to me the plenims are very small on the cars and not many people think to chane them!
    #13
  15. edward_harris
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    edward_harris s3 gone now a shiney red evo 6

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    [Dec 20, 2007]
    [​IMG]
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  16. simch
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    simch Active Member

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    [Dec 20, 2007]
    graph does not look too bad. I you are experiencing flat spots etc on the road, I'd change your dv to a new stock one. It was a different car mine when I dumped the bailey piston valve.
    #15
  17. edward_harris
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    edward_harris s3 gone now a shiney red evo 6

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    [Dec 21, 2007]
    really? would it really make an extra 35-40bhp tho?!
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  18. simch
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    simch Active Member

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    [Dec 21, 2007]
    Not necessarily, but the peak power depends on so much. I found near 20hp by changin fuel form BP ultimate to V power and then more going to tesco 99.
    Also the general condition of your motor beforehand, the cat condition etc all have an effect. When you get to 325hp, 5% difference gets you to over 340!!

    Also depending on what revs your 1.6bar is coming in at, it may be it tails off earlier later on, givign you more torque and less top end.

    I think set up on rollers with some jiggery pokery, you should get near 350.

    BTW, your result does not surprise me, i took them out in mine at APS when mine was having its DV problems and Ed reckoned yours felt identical to mine at the top end. Mine was making 327 at the time at jabba, and only found its full potential when we changed a few things.
    Fuel was one, as the timing was getting pulled back, I also fitted a cooler thermostat and some copper cooler NGK plugs, (all to drag some heat out of the combustion chambers).
    It helped but the boost was tailing off too quick and lag was bad when warm..after much head scratching Mike at jabba located the problem as the brand new bailey DV sticking at 85degrees c, wheter open, closed or part way, venting off boost as it did.
    Put a brand new TT one on and it was cured, no dump whooshy noise, bu the beast was born and it flies now!
    Speak to Ed at APS and ask about the stock style bosche valves, if they have one they could stick it o to try it.
    They also have an Evo one in their cabinet that can I understand be fitted to the 18Ts , bigger and more responsive allegedly.
    #17
  19. glen_jai
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    glen_jai Member

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    [Dec 21, 2007]
    Man... so it seems that the stock Bosch dv is the one to stick with then. Will the Bosch item manage the pressure from a bigger turbo though?
    How long have you had the Bosch item fitted for?

    Very worrying considering how everyone is banging on about fitting a Forge or Baileys DV.
    #18
  20. edward_harris
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    edward_harris s3 gone now a shiney red evo 6

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    [Dec 21, 2007]
    ok thanks ill pass all this info over to Ed. I did fill up with Tesco 99octane before it went on the rollers as well! Did the car feel alot differnet speed wise when you got the new d-valve on it? Seeing as yours came out a 327bhp like mine?
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  21. simch
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    simch Active Member

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    [Dec 21, 2007]
    No, my 327 was before the dv was changed and the map redone.
    It was not happy being very laggy due to the problems with the DV. Timing also was retarded to stop pinking.

    Once sorted with the new plugs, thermostat etc, it needed to be pegged back to 350hp, as it was making serious power that was threatening the rods!!

    Its chalk and cheese compared to what it was. I usually only run half boost on the road now, (c1.2bar) its plenty. Nice to turn it up when you need to though!

    The stock DV can take the larger turbo boost pressure easily. Pushing an IHI at c350hp, you still only pull 1.6bar, wiht a remapped k04, they hit higher than that despite making about 90hp less. The bigger turbo does not need so much boost to make the power.

    Ed, I think your car is very healthy at the revs it is making its power at. It maybe just needs to hold its power longer, ie not drop off at 6600 like it does.
    The 350 to 400 hp 18t guys make power at 7k-8k revs!
    The Bailey I had played havoc with the ihi, once junked its been sweet as a nut and is seriously quick when it wants to be. 0-100 in 11 seconds, 13.2 s 1/4 at 109.75mph is not to be sniffed at!
    #20
  22. edward_harris
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    edward_harris s3 gone now a shiney red evo 6

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    [Dec 21, 2007]
    so what power could it go to max? seeing as ive changed the rods?
    #21
  23. simch
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    simch Active Member

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    [Dec 21, 2007]
    I think max on an ihi p20 housing is about 360hp, with big valve head, and lots of bits and bobs on it, (inlet manifold maybe??)

    I dont think there is much worong with yours apart form you say there are flat spots. Worth trying another dv on it, possibly n249 valve too as someone else suggested.

    if the power could be held for another say 500 revs you'd have 350+
    #22
  24. edward_harris
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    edward_harris s3 gone now a shiney red evo 6

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    [Dec 23, 2007]
    forgot to ask, did you have a de-cat at all and what back box? maybe because ive got the quite milltec back box its a bit more restrictive?!
    #23
  25. leecs3
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    leecs3 thinking about stuff

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    [Dec 23, 2007]
    Dubsport remapped cars are pegged at 275bhp and the mapping is done independently by Wayne at Chip Wizard. The maximum they've ever managed is 291bhp on Emerald 3D, which was again backed off to 275.
    #24
  26. simch
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    simch Active Member

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    [Dec 23, 2007]
    I have the unresonated louder miltek, and the jabba hi flow single bullet cat.
    #25
  27. emzino
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    emzino Active Member

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    [Dec 24, 2007]
    What's a bullet cat?
    #26
  28. Ess_Three
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    Ess_Three Active Member

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    [Dec 24, 2007]
    This was Richard (ex MJ Interiors) old Dubsport swapped red Mk2, on DTA.
    The owner was adament he had a graph showing 310+ BHP..needless to say, I was sceptical.

    What you say makes more sense...275 ish when mapped by Wayne and a few more possible on stand alone.

    I knew fine well the 310+ wasn't possible.
    #27
  29. glen_jai
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    glen_jai Member

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    [Dec 24, 2007]
    Jabbasport cats are just a single big round sports cat, instead of the Audi twin cats.

    The problem with the Jabba sports cats, is that being a big single cat that goes down the middle over the driveshaft, then stick out a few inches under the car. So if your car has been lowered, then it will more than definitely catch on sleeping policemen.
    #28
  30. simch
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    simch Active Member

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    [Dec 24, 2007]
    True, it is quite low, but mine is on -30mil H and rs and I never had it touch anything at all, even seriously hacking on on glorfied farm tracks in Switzerland!
    #29
  31. emzino
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    emzino Active Member

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    [Dec 24, 2007]
    Aha I see. Is it a more efficient setup than a twin cat setup though?
    #30
  32. edward_harris
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    edward_harris s3 gone now a shiney red evo 6

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    [Dec 25, 2007]
    ive got the single cat setup, could it be due to the fact i have the quite milletc exhaust?!
    #31
  33. Ryanc
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    Ryanc Active Member

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    [Feb 10, 2008]
    Sorry to drag this up from the dead but this is what many ihi cars have run on independant dyno's.I believe wilko and rich did around 320bhp on power engineering's dyno.Mine made 335bhp on more accurate rollers like maha while made 363bhp on Jabba's rollers.Vf34 is only good to 325bhp with the p20 housing your looking at 335bhp.The compressor is just too small and the exhaust housing also creates alot of backpressure.Edward with forged rods your car should be good enough for a real 400bhp with decent mapping just get a bigger turbo on there!
    #32
  34. simch
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    simch Active Member

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    [Feb 10, 2008]
    How is awesome's RR? Or janspeed's?
    Seen IHI Ibiza's making 340+ on Awesome;s and 360+ at Janspeed.

    When dynos vary so much why is it that the officiandos only believe the lowest figures!!! Maybe the "accurate" rollers UNDER read??

    When there are apparently only one or two "accurate" (lowere readin) rolling roads, it does make you wonder whether they are correct?

    ED, amybe your answer is to take a trip to jabba and book it in for a roller run. If it makes 360hp there, then it would appear fine compared to others.
    HAev the changes APS did not made any difference at all?
    #33
  35. edward_harris
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    edward_harris s3 gone now a shiney red evo 6

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    [Feb 10, 2008]
    not really still feels the same! my mates had his scooby on the rollers and it made 330bhp with a ihi turbo on as well and both are cars are equal all the way so i think mine is only about 325bhp! i do want to get this other turbo but i think £4300 is to much! Also i find after about 80mph these cars just cant stay with anything with a decent size engine ie m3! I had a race with a mate in a m3 i was slightly quicker than him till about 80 then he just drove past me like i wasn't there!
    #34
  36. edward_harris
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    edward_harris s3 gone now a shiney red evo 6

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    [Feb 10, 2008]
    also fitted my new plugs and thermostat (same as yours smich!! ) thermostat was such a pig to do! the bottom bolt was so hard to get to! dropped 2 allen keys down there! got them out in the end! sits a 90 all the time now tho! does yours sit a 90 smich even tho its a cooler thermostat?!
    #35
  37. edward_harris
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    edward_harris s3 gone now a shiney red evo 6

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    [Feb 10, 2008]
    smich when i do go up to jabba prob next sat, is it worth getting a larger maf or a scaled one what ever they call it?!
    #36
  38. ChriS3
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    ChriS3 hud at ye bam

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    [Feb 10, 2008]

    Usually its because the rollers that make the lowest figures make factory numbers on unmodified cars. Star Performance are about the most pessimistic I've come across (Maha rollers) - my remapped S3 made less than 255bhp and yet they make perfect factory numbers. Glen's S3 made 208/209 down there when new.

    Besides, bigger claims are good for business. Jabba's claims seem unlikely in most instances, Awesome's transmission losses always seem tiny. It also depends if the car is run in 2WD or AWD. The latter being more representative and more often produce lower figures, but most compainies don't do runs in that way.
    #37
  39. Ryanc
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    Ryanc Active Member

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    [Feb 10, 2008]
    Awesomes is dynojet which imo overread. Imo the best are dyno dynamics but they don't like haldex after this i'd go for bosch or maha.
    The facts are a vf34 ihi turbo is fairly small ,decent for 320-330bhp,end of story.
    £4300 is a joke to fit a new turbo and remap it.
    Turbo £1000, fitting with gaskets etc £500max ,remap £300max
    =£1800max
    Putting a bigger maf on is a waste of time,THE TURBO IS MAXXED OUT!!!!!
    I agree a large port head with porting valves etc may give you 15bhp more,so 340bhp,is it worth it??my opinion NO!
    #38
  40. Ess_Three
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    Ess_Three Active Member

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    [Feb 10, 2008]
    Personally, I find MAHA the most accurate.
    I believe Porsche also use MAHA which says something.

    I like Star's rollers...I've had nothing but 'accurate' figures for every standard car I've ever run there.

    Lupo GTI = 127 BHP
    My GTI Golf = 151 BHP
    My S3 = 208 BHP
    My 911 = 318 BHP

    Awesomes give some comedy figures...I know a lad with a Mk3 16v Golf that makes 150+ BHP @ wheels! Standard!
    Losses were about 14 BHP.
    I want his gearbox!
    I've spent thousands and modified plenty...and don't have 150 ATW FFS.

    Dyno Dynamics are good rollers...but they generally don't measure coastdown, they use a look up table of cars tested by DD.
    Fine of your car is standard...
    But a FWD car with different gearing, lots of negative camber, wider tyres, toe out and an LSD WILL give different losses - it will loose more...so the calculated power @ crank becomes a bit of a joke.
    #39
  41. Dave_Bayern
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    Dave_Bayern Slipping at 3.5Krpm

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    [Feb 10, 2008]
    Dyno Dynamics rollers are used by Red Bull Racing/Jaguar Racing.

    Probably wont be the same model as the ones in your local garage but they generally are considered the most accurate money can buy.
    #40

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