1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

one thing after another!

Discussion in 'A3/S3 Forum (8L Chassis)' started by edward_harris, Feb 28, 2007.

  1. Ess_Three

    Ess_Three Active Member

    Joined:
    Feb 19, 2001
    Messages:
    5,383
    Likes Received:
    9
    No you won't...not noticably anyway...the big turbo S3s come into their own above 80MPH...
    Which you obviously won't be doing...

    A big turbo S3 isn't much faster to 60...the gearing is the same, the grip is the same...more power just confuses the **** drivetrain and suspension.

    And if you are a straight line hero...you should be aware that decent suspension lets you use the power and torque you have efficiently...as opposed to letting the damn thing bog down and wallow as you try to use 350 BHP through soggy suspension.

    I suspect a well set up, properly suspended S3 will be just as quick off the mark as a 350 BHP car that goes 'plane spotting (front lifting, causing wheelspin and rear squatting, hitting bump stops and causing wheelspin...for the hard of understanding) as it can use the full power it has without triggering the ESP/TCS or breaking the tyres grip.

    Suspension is not just about corners...anyone who thinks it is it foolish and uninformed.


    And you propose to deploy 350 BHP / 300 lb-ft of torque how exactly, if your tyres are that bad?

    Oh dear...
     
  2. Google AdSense Guest Advertisement



    to hide this advert.
  3. edward_harris

    edward_harris s3 gone now a shiney red evo 6

    Joined:
    Jan 11, 2007
    Messages:
    1,061
    Likes Received:
    2
    well because one of my springs has snapped and needs replacing, was gonna get them to put some h&r springs on with bilstein b8's, thats what people have recommended, would that sort out all these problems then in your opinion?
     
  4. Ess_Three

    Ess_Three Active Member

    Joined:
    Feb 19, 2001
    Messages:
    5,383
    Likes Received:
    9
    Wrecking your wheels?
    How come?

    Ah yes...you still have standard suspension...I see...it's all becoming clear now...


    Really?
    I have EBC Reds in my 190BHP Mk3 Golf (with S3 front brakes) and thay are quite possibly the worst brake pads I've ever had the missfortune to use.
    Wooden, noisy, **** from cold...not impressed.


    Just as well...even a big turbo 350BHP S3 won't do 160MPH.

    Unless it's one of these 'special' S3s that some people have on here...the ones that ignore the laws of physics and aerodynamics.
    Or it's diesel powered...then it might do 170+...but that's another subject!


    Edward, it really sounds like you should sort your tyres out...or you could be in for a fright or two.
     
  5. edward_harris

    edward_harris s3 gone now a shiney red evo 6

    Joined:
    Jan 11, 2007
    Messages:
    1,061
    Likes Received:
    2
    lol, tyres are new but I'm saying brakes are only as good as the traction on the road! so with the above suspension set up would this be noticeable? ie allot better?!!
     
  6. KEF A3 20V T

    KEF A3 20V T Turbo's Rule

    Joined:
    Sep 27, 2006
    Messages:
    199
    Likes Received:
    0
    I'll give you some money towards some new brakes if you sell me ur old K04 turbo etc! :icon_thumright:

    Kef
     
  7. Ess_Three

    Ess_Three Active Member

    Joined:
    Feb 19, 2001
    Messages:
    5,383
    Likes Received:
    9
    That is a very good set up...
    They are the best damped dampers and best (most compliant, sweetest handling) springs I've experienced on an S3.

    There is no need for coilovers unless you want to dump it so low that it'll not handle anyway (lower does not mean better handling...despite what many believe) and if the damping is correctly valved, you don't need adjustable damping either.
    The H&R springs are spot on with a sensible drop in height and increase in stiffness without being harsh, and the Bilsteins are absolutely perfectly matched to the H&R springs for fast road use.

    Bear in mind, if lowering, you WILL need the adjustable rear tie bars.
    Without them you'll have too much rear negative camber which will lead to tyre wear and unpredictable handling...

    Now, I know you say you don't mind so much about the handling, but want it to be quick in a straight line...if you don't fit the rear tie bars, you will be trying to deploy 350BHP through rear tyres with lots of negative camber - so sitting on the inside edges (the Haldex will move power rearwards as the car launches...that's what it does) so your tyres won't grip...and you'll wheelspin...not fast.
    If you set the rear camber to 0 degrees per side (normally for fast road use I'd suggest -0.5 degrees per side) then as you launch, you keep the rear tyres flat on the road for maximum grip and traction.

    You'll loose a little feel on the corners, for a slight gain on the launches by opting for 0.0 degrees over -0.5 degrees....
     
  8. S3 Andy

    S3 Andy Member

    Joined:
    Mar 1, 2007
    Messages:
    66
    Likes Received:
    2
    thats why porsches and citreons use the same brakes.:applaus:
     
  9. Ess_Three

    Ess_Three Active Member

    Joined:
    Feb 19, 2001
    Messages:
    5,383
    Likes Received:
    9
    What tyres are you running?
    What size?
    What pressures?

    All affect traction...both accelerating and braking.


    As for brakes, although you say you can lock them up, that's no sign of good brakes.
    Good brakes are brakes that can dissipate the energy of slowing a car down, quickly, over and over again, and translate that energy to the road, via the tyres.

    I don't believe the standard brakes (even with EBC Reds - yeuck!) are up to the job of stopping a mapped S3...never mind a BT S3.


    Proper suspension will stop the front diving under braking, keep the front tyres in contact with the road for longer and generally add to the braking effort...

    So 'good' suspension adds to both braking and accelerating....not just cornering.
    You'd be amazed at the difference.
     
  10. marmite

    marmite Counting the Tesco Club points

    Joined:
    Jul 20, 2006
    Messages:
    1,101
    Likes Received:
    0
    This is just a thought

    In most cases people strive for more power to go quicker..so correct me if I'm wrong you want more power just to get to 60 quicker, beat the occansional chav and go down santo pod strip...so why bother with brakes or Suspension??

    I'm lost if you have more power you will use it constantly..come that moment you are pushing it the suspension might give?? What about when you are going down the pod and the car is trying to sit itself on the tar mac as the rear springs can't handle the power
    Your getting to 60 mph quicker and someone pulls out...You need better brakes

    I personaly didn't think much of the brakes on the s3 or b5 s4
    Do not get me on to S8 they were hopeless..but then again I was only going upto 60!
     
  11. bantam1

    bantam1 Member

    Joined:
    Aug 15, 2004
    Messages:
    527
    Likes Received:
    1
    Ed,

    Sorted S3 suspension simply makes it a far more pleasurable drive regardless of the power you are running. Using recommendations from on here that is what I did first and I didn't regret it. It's now mapped and that is even more smiles but I wouldn't want to have the extra power without the sorted suspension as standard it is a pain in the ass.

    Listen to some experience - many on here have been there and done that.

    Hope things turn out right for you. APS are a great outfit at least.

    Regards,

    B.
     
  12. marmite

    marmite Counting the Tesco Club points

    Joined:
    Jul 20, 2006
    Messages:
    1,101
    Likes Received:
    0
    EDward

    Reading this buddy you need to take the advise given
    It is not all about the BHP it is the whole package
    There is some very sound and good advice that Glen has spent time writing for you and us to read..it all makes too much sense to me and if I was you I would follow some it.

    Put this into perspective I took a 1990 1000cc mini...boy'd it up

    First things to do are brakes..suspension then wack the engine in.
    You have to get the balance right

    Some of the boys with RS6 getting silly BHP are changing suspension and brakes

    Even high speeds at the pod you need the balance, the extra torque you are wanting you will need it.
     
  13. Prawn

    Prawn My other car is a MINI!!!!

    Joined:
    Dec 8, 2006
    Messages:
    10,428
    Likes Received:
    1,995
    i think the phrase 'prevention is better than cure' could apply here......

    why not prevent the problem by making SURE you can corner and stop safely BEFORE having the engine upgraded to such a level.

    rather than finding out the hard way be curing the problem with new suspension and brakes, along with a new rear quarter panel after you put it backwards off a dual carriage way roundabout into the barrier, because you wernt going 'that' fast
     
  14. Ess_Three

    Ess_Three Active Member

    Joined:
    Feb 19, 2001
    Messages:
    5,383
    Likes Received:
    9
    I have driven very well sorted BT S3 over a good few miles (ChriS3's car) and compared to my old S3 there is lots in it, yet nothing in it.
    I'll try to explain...

    Chris's car is fantastic to drive...very well mapped and feels just like a standard S3 just more of it...my S3 didn't it was very peaky, very aggreessive and set up much more ragged.

    On a dual carridgeway or straight long road, Chris's car would be faster by a good margin.

    But mine came on boost sooner, more aggressively and was WAY quicker out of tight corners...

    I believe mine had a suspension asvantage (better rebound damping, slightly softer springs, more aggressive geometry and more grip, despite running worse tyres.

    On a decent high pace run through the Highlands of Scotland I would be no faster in Chris's car...infact with my S3 set up the way it was (to suit my driving style, I expect I would have been slightly faster in mine) but in both examples of cars, the chassis and brakes (Chris has Porsche callipers and ECS discs, I had Brembos) were sorted before the power hungry craze got silly.
    You live longer that way.

    Chris's car is very close to being the perfect package...great brakes, suspension and engine...being uber critical, a tad more low end torque (earlier spool up), and a tad more rebound damping on softer springs with slightly more aggressive geometry would see that S3 being virtually unbeatable on all roads. (Pity it's still boring as hell to drive though...like all S3s! :moa: )


    The thing is, with a big turbo S3 you loose bottom end to gain lots of top end.
    That's the way it is (over an aggressively mapped K04 car)

    But regardless of BT or well re-mapped S3...you still have the awful (almost dangerous) standard suspension and piss poor brakes to contend with.
    Sort both of those and you have a quick, capable car.
    Beyond suspension and brakes, the amount of power you add gives small gains to mid sized gains depending on the road and road conditions....

    But take an S3 to 350 BHP without sorting the **** chassis and hopeless brakes and in my view, you are a large accident awaiting a suitible location.
    Not good..
     
  15. DPM

    DPM Site Sponsor
    Site Sponsor

    Joined:
    Jun 10, 2006
    Messages:
    4,584
    Likes Received:
    100
    Ed mate, i'm not being nasty or jumping on the band wagon to bash you but if i were you i would of saved my 5k and just spent less then half that getting all the suspension tip top with H&R springs, Bilstein dampers, H&R ARB's and Forge tie bars and also uprating the brakes.

    Standard S3's just aren't built to take that power, things need to be changed and it's a snowball effect. You get more power, you need more stopping power. Your able to go faster, you need to be able to corner faster.

    I just hope you take some of this on board as if you do you'll have one awesome S3!

    :icon_thumright:
     
  16. A3_Turbo

    A3_Turbo Swaying towards IHI....

    Joined:
    Jul 28, 2006
    Messages:
    1,464
    Likes Received:
    0
    Wow this thread is some good reading,

    As they say Speed is nothing over control,

    I cant see 2k to sort your brakes and suspension i think APS have a deal on the Brembo GT kit 800 ish i think it is then just sort your springs and dampers.

    Id get it done mate just for peace of mind, You'll be able to do so much more with a properlly set-up BT S3.

    Have Fun!

    J
     
  17. markyp2002

    markyp2002 Member

    Joined:
    Oct 27, 2006
    Messages:
    311
    Likes Received:
    0
    for the ultimate stopping power, you could always fit a repeatedly deployable parachute???

    dont forget, when you have got that much power, that much torque, your going to hit speeds much faster, so take this into consideration:

    my remapped A3 when throttled, then having to brake suddenly, ABS goes mental. imagine your stutter on the brakes with 350 horses pelting down to poxy S3 standard brakes and suspension; something is bound to fail sooner or later.

    ess_three is bang on with his posts so far (as always :hubbahubba: ) you should 100% invest in uprated springs and dampers. the brembo GT kits is a good bit of stuff aswell.

    let me tell you its not going to be cheap. a friend of mine bought one of the fastest skylines in the UK (sorry rice haters) twin ceramic turbos, intercoolers galore, 647 bhp, problem was, they did all that to the engine, and never modified the brakes, the front end, ended up in a lake near me 2 weeks ago and its costing a fortune to repair.

    so just think wisely about the above before you spirit finger your monster! :rockwoot:
     
  18. DPM

    DPM Site Sponsor
    Site Sponsor

    Joined:
    Jun 10, 2006
    Messages:
    4,584
    Likes Received:
    100
    Bilstein dampers - £529
    H&R ARB's - £269
    H&R springs - £155
    Forge tie bars - £349
    Brembos - £800

    Total - £2102

    and that would be some sorted suspension and brakes!
     
  19. Aky

    Aky Aky

    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2006
    Messages:
    1,512
    Likes Received:
    2
    Well I don't beleive he's having any of the work doing. In fact he's doubting me whether he even has an S3. something doesn't add up IMO
     
  20. ChriS3

    ChriS3 hud at ye bam

    Joined:
    Jan 25, 2006
    Messages:
    2,234
    Likes Received:
    15
    ....and about £90 for a custom alignment (needed anyway due to the front ARB), and about a days worth of labour to fit it all.


    All in, that would totally transform the car. And the Haldex PP makes it even better...
     
  21. [Dave B]

    [Dave B] Daddy

    Joined:
    Jan 3, 2003
    Messages:
    2,020
    Likes Received:
    134
    Ed,

    I don't know what you've paid for your car, but assuming it was a good £10k, and you're going to need to spend a further £7k (conservative) on turbo's suspension etc to reach the performance you require, to just beat chavs from the lights and take it to pod....are you sure you've bought the right car?
     
  22. Google AdSense Guest Advertisement



    to hide this advert.
  23. rodenal

    rodenal Active Member

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2006
    Messages:
    1,992
    Likes Received:
    0
    Im pretty confused as to how you think its all down to tyres - the abs on your car cuts in too early as standard, however with better brakes the abs will be far more effective and will actually stop you, not let you plough into the nearest field.

    Tyres will make a difference, so are you trying to say your tyres just now arent up to the job?

    And if they are, how you think better brakes arent essential is beyond me
     
  24. ChriS3

    ChriS3 hud at ye bam

    Joined:
    Jan 25, 2006
    Messages:
    2,234
    Likes Received:
    15
    Bowled over by compliments, thank you Glen.

    This also highlights my concern over an IHI big turbo conversion on a standard set-up. My turbo is a faster spooling Garret GT28RS with a great prgressive map. The IHI's by comparison appear to be more laggy but with a harder punch higher up. With BT conversions you have power available over a broader rev range which means you'll generally be running the engine at higher rpm than before and therefore travelling faster than a remapped car. With the extra lag of the IHI you'll probably find yourself playing more at a higher rpm as that's the peak torque point of the turbo. You WILL be driving faster with 350bhp.


    True, the geometry is less agressive; I have -1.3 to your -1.5, and the front toe is set to parallel. The differences between ours is mainly down to the Eibachs, Haldex PP, and the extra unsprung weight I'm carrying. I think the Brembo's are slightly lighter and there's a few kg's saved in your 8" wide wheels. But I think it would add up to making yours feel a nimbler car in the twisty stuff, but too twitchy in general for my style of driving.

    I think a there's very little that would keep up with you on decent high paced run through the Highlands in your Golf. Handling is what makes the cars fun to drive cross country, it's the driver that makes the car fast. Power's just a bonus.


    Cheque's in the post....
     
  25. edward_harris

    edward_harris s3 gone now a shiney red evo 6

    Joined:
    Jan 11, 2007
    Messages:
    1,061
    Likes Received:
    2
    i am getting the suspension done, but gonna wait a month or two for the brakes, i onnly drive it at the weekends anyway, normally in the van!
     
  26. SanityClause

    SanityClause Member

    Joined:
    May 5, 2004
    Messages:
    93
    Likes Received:
    1
    Wow, 350 bhp and once the suspension and brakes are done you'll have shelled out about £7k, it'll be a rocket.
    I notice your 20, what was your insurance quote for the car with all this extra power?
    Interested, because my boy is 22 and wanting to buy my S3 from me.
     
  27. rodenal

    rodenal Active Member

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2006
    Messages:
    1,992
    Likes Received:
    0
    Insurance at 20 would be stupid money - especially with all these mods

    How can you afford the car, 5k of work and the insurance to cover it at 20?

    Maybe im just jealous, im 23 and couldnt afford it.

    But then again, id rather have a house
     
  28. marmite

    marmite Counting the Tesco Club points

    Joined:
    Jul 20, 2006
    Messages:
    1,101
    Likes Received:
    0
    :iagree:
     
  29. SanityClause

    SanityClause Member

    Joined:
    May 5, 2004
    Messages:
    93
    Likes Received:
    1
    I know it would be a huge amount for insurance, my boy paid £1500 for basic cover on an Astra 1.4i at 17. It didn't get much better when I bought him a new-ish Clio 1.2 a few years later, though it was at least below a grand.
    An S3 would have been a stupid figure with a row of naughts behind it, a mapped S3 would have equated to the gross annual income of a small African country, and a BT S3 would need NASA "send a man to the sun and back" amounts.

    Edward appears to be worried about the cash required to solve the braking and suspension issues that he's just found out about , but what about insurance?

    I have to say that this reads a lot like some recent posts with warp factor nine speeds being bandied about, and if spending thousands is just to prove you have a bigger willy than the guy next to you at the lights - but whoops I got no brakes, sorry pedestrians, yes M'lud I feel so sorry for the family of the departed and of course I'll be paying for it from every paycheck I get in the next 50 years after I get out of prison of course.

    Count me out.
     
  30. Ess_Three

    Ess_Three Active Member

    Joined:
    Feb 19, 2001
    Messages:
    5,383
    Likes Received:
    9
    Ahh...insurance...
    Maybe the Chav's school of thought is being employed, where the young driver thinks he knows best and he'll not need to tell the insurance....presumably because he's just such an uber good driver that he'll never have an accident?

    18" wheels on your Corsa? ...the insurance company'll not know or recognise.
    Bodykit on your Saxo? ...the insurance company'll not know or recognise.
    Cut down springs / cheap-ass coilovers on your Fiesta? ...the insurance company'll not know or recognise.
    Big turbo on your S3? ...makes you wonder.

    Not that I'm suggesting Edward is...but it happens.
    You hear such gems as "I can't tell the insurance company as they'll not insure me if I do".
    No **** Sherlock!
     
  31. LaSarthe&Back

    LaSarthe&Back Member

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2006
    Messages:
    300
    Likes Received:
    0
    Er yes they can! And will! Let me tell you as someone who's upgraded from standard to 312, it's a huge difference compared to standard braking. I put better brakes on before I had my remap cos I want to know that I can stop, rather than thinking "where can I point it to do the least damage?!"

    As said above, you NEED decent brakes AND suspension!

    Have you budgeted for all the things that will break cos of your 350bhp??
     
  32. marmite

    marmite Counting the Tesco Club points

    Joined:
    Jul 20, 2006
    Messages:
    1,101
    Likes Received:
    0
    :applaus:

    It is more cool to say you got 350bhp doen the pub then brakes and suspension

    The thing is do you really need 350bhp to blow a Chav away in a saxo?

    Thought 90bhp will do!!

    I ditch the remap and now filled my boot
    [​IMG]

    700bhp now!

    I was having trouble keeping up with the Chavs...!

    Well it makes you laugh
     
  33. Aky

    Aky Aky

    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2006
    Messages:
    1,512
    Likes Received:
    2
    The guy is a full on bullsh1tter.

    Apologies for the above but had to get my point over.
     
  34. Aky

    Aky Aky

    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2006
    Messages:
    1,512
    Likes Received:
    2
    I think we all know what kills the clutch, no need to blind us all with statistics, lets face it, the clutch's are cr4p and just using a standard remap you may have to replace the clutch so in the real world out on the road the clutch will need replacing with a BT conversion.
     
  35. monkeytrousers

    Joined:
    Jul 18, 2004
    Messages:
    371
    Likes Received:
    0
    I'd like an answer to the insurance question. I don't know how old you are Edward, but it's going to cost a small fortune if you're under 25?
     
  36. S3tony

    S3tony Member

    Joined:
    Jun 8, 2004
    Messages:
    396
    Likes Received:
    0
    i think when i got my s3 at 21 i paid almost £900, and i live in a low risk area. 3 years later im down to £600. he must be paying a fortune on insurance, wish i could afford it all. but after my recent house purchase i doubt ill be able to.
     
  37. campbell

    campbell Member

    Joined:
    Apr 19, 2006
    Messages:
    720
    Likes Received:
    1
    i think no insurance company will touch Edward if he told them about them modifications on a S3. i got a S3 when i was 21 and the insurance was enough for me! nevermind being 20 ....
     
  38. Dave_Bayern

    Dave_Bayern Slipping at 3.5Krpm

    Joined:
    Sep 26, 2006
    Messages:
    1,913
    Likes Received:
    4
    He's 20, lives in Berkshire, can afford an S3 but knows nothing about it, so unless hes a city trader, I'd say its the bank of mum and dad, so he doubtless doesn't have to worry about insurance costs...
     
  39. DPM

    DPM Site Sponsor
    Site Sponsor

    Joined:
    Jun 10, 2006
    Messages:
    4,584
    Likes Received:
    100
    :happy:
     
  40. monkeytrousers

    Joined:
    Jul 18, 2004
    Messages:
    371
    Likes Received:
    0
    Well if he doesn't tell them about the mods, he ain't insured. Simple as that.
     
  41. campbell

    campbell Member

    Joined:
    Apr 19, 2006
    Messages:
    720
    Likes Received:
    1
    Ed has gone quiet though .....
     
  42. marmite

    marmite Counting the Tesco Club points

    Joined:
    Jul 20, 2006
    Messages:
    1,101
    Likes Received:
    0
    Are you surprised
     

Share This Page