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Not another Nogaro!!!

IanPG Jun 16, 2016

  1. IanPG

    IanPG Well-Known Member Team Nogaro Blue Silver Supporter Audi S3

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    I’ve definitely had the in line running with the wiring as I’ve described but the shop is letting me tackle the wiring again tomorrow as I can get off work early

    So I’ll re wire the signal to come off of the fuse box, make sure it’s 4 gauge wiring all around, solder up at the ring terminals, and make sure the in-line pump is buzzing away as it should before getting back on dyno.

    That’s the thing, so many other setups have been the same or are making more power, which I’ve based my fuelling system off. So it should be able to handle it...
     
  2. IanPG

    IanPG Well-Known Member Team Nogaro Blue Silver Supporter Audi S3

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    The guys at Underground Performance were kind enough to let me tear things apart and re-do the wiring.

    found that what i did aaaaages ago... stupidly... is i had a 12V running direct from battery (big gauge) = good

    which i joined up with a very skinny ass wire (maybe 22AWG? it was like 5 strands of very thin wire... maybe 4) with a spade connector to the relay holder wire (which i attached the other side of a spade - IDK what i was thinking!) = bad

    this same relay also had a very skinny ground wire (ground point shared at that common point under the steering wheel column) = bad

    & the signal i had joined up to 87f/diesel = not the best

    SO i'm hoping the following helps my situation
    - the battery fat 12v is now fused w/15A in-line and soldered at both ends of fuse holder wiring to the 40A relay
    - power to the 044 is now using much thicker spec wiring soldered from the relay holder to a ring terminal at the fuel pump
    - pump -ve is now a thick copper core running from 044 to a ground in front of the fuse box (there are two big 13mm bolts)
    - relay -ve now also uses the other bolt in this area for ground
    - relay signal taken from fuel pump blue w/red stripe wire (thickness of wire same spec)

    Tomorrow - switch over of throttle body boost pipe
     
    killfame, <tuffty/> and superkarl like this.
  3. superkarl

    superkarl MAN OF STEEL

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    Good luck


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
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  4. Stuart B

    Stuart B Well-Known Member

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    Any news Ian?
    This is like waiting for updates of a baby being born.
     
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  5. IanPG

    IanPG Well-Known Member Team Nogaro Blue Silver Supporter Audi S3

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    LOL

    Things have been busy at the tuners with the volume of cars... with Noggie there have been many ponderings of how to tackle the lowering fuel pressure when the turbo is on full chat

    ... enter Walbro 460

    Tuners had a spare 8P pump laying around which looked pretty much the same as the 8L bar the top hat of the basket and the plug which has 5 pins. I asked if they had the time to modify it. Basically they hinted that "will take time" = they're busy = they'll charge more for time = i said i'd do it myelf. Have been very lucky to be able to store the car in their naughty corner.

    - here's the job... 8P basket, OEM pump top right, Walbro 460 bottom
    Walbro 460 00001.png

    Walbro 460 00002.png

    - push this clip out
    Walbro 460 00003.png

    Walbro 460 00004.png

    - remove the clip & top nipple
    Walbro 460 00005.png

    - separate this hose to re-use
    Walbro 460 00006.png

    - this needs to come out
    Walbro 460 00007.png

    - well that doesn't fit too well now does it
    Walbro 460 00008.png

    - OEM 8P pump vs Walbro 460
    Walbro 460 00009.png

    - time to do a bit of hacking away
    Walbro 460 00010.png

    - when butt up against the bottom the pump in is blocked and doesn't line up to where the stock "funnel" would be. Notice the flat hollow at 3 o'clock. this is where the OEM pump has a funnel into it.
    Walbro 460 00011.png

    - marking out a wider hole
    Walbro 460 00012.png

    - here you can see how the green tube acts as a filter. On the outside of it, but within the main basket, is screen material. At the bottom it drains out to where the fuel would feed into the pump. I saw how this worked by filling it up with water to see how it all flowed. Didn't know they worked this way!
    Walbro 460 00013.png

    - fitting an 0ring to help seat the pump in place without it flopping about. i ended up doing this from the top instead of underneath like i was trying in this pic
    Walbro 460 00014.png

    - now it sits in there tight. Routing the wiring and feed tube
    Walbro 460 00015.png

    - sock on
    Walbro 460 00016.png

    Walbro 460 00017.png

    - So seeing how the water flowed before it would fill the basket (outside of the green tube) then run onto the sock. Any excess would be sucked into the hollow and into the sock > pump
    Walbro 460 00018.png

    Walbro 460 00019.png

    *fingers crossed* this fixes things up...
     

    Attached Files:

  6. IanPG

    IanPG Well-Known Member Team Nogaro Blue Silver Supporter Audi S3

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    Looks promising

    6594B0CF-126F-41FF-8DBE-AC4FE9660199.jpeg
     
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  7. Stuart B

    Stuart B Well-Known Member

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    So are you still using 2 pumps or just this one replacement?
     
  8. IanPG

    IanPG Well-Known Member Team Nogaro Blue Silver Supporter Audi S3

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    Just this one I’m pretty sure.

    The wiring for the in line is all still there so if another one is needed in the future it can be quickly upgraded
     
  9. <tuffty/>

    <tuffty/> Badger 5 Edition...Its all about the flow... Staff Member Moderator Audi S3

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    I assume you have removed the inline pump and not left it in the fuel line..

    <tuffty/>
     
  10. IanPG

    IanPG Well-Known Member Team Nogaro Blue Silver Supporter Audi S3

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    Check :)

    The fuel filter is back in its original spot.
     
    <tuffty/> likes this.
  11. IanPG

    IanPG Well-Known Member Team Nogaro Blue Silver Supporter Audi S3

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    Had my first driver training/track day over the weekend!!! Got driver training in a race prepped Toyota 86 and then was scooting around in our passenger car that we bought along, a Fiat Grande Punto T-Jet.

    Hooked!!!
     
  12. tcg

    tcg Active Member

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    Glad to see you finally got to experience a real Jap motor :yum: not long and you'll be doing the same in your S3.
     
  13. superkarl

    superkarl MAN OF STEEL

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    *



    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
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  14. IanPG

    IanPG Well-Known Member Team Nogaro Blue Silver Supporter Audi S3

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    That’s the plan. And I wanna do skid pan training too. After speaking to other coaches they recommend this as you learn the car at its limits.


    LOL
    yeah the car was slow but cornering is incredible!
     
  15. Prawn

    Prawn My other car is a MINI!!!!

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    Tuna
    This is so important. Only when you know the limit can you then know how close to that limit you are pushing!

    I've been in cars with people who thought they were going fast, but were actually a million miles from the cars limit.

    Similarly, I've also been in the car with people who think they're more than safe, not even realising they're seconds away from pushing too far and having a huge accident :racer:
     
    IanPG likes this.
  16. IanPG

    IanPG Well-Known Member Team Nogaro Blue Silver Supporter Audi S3

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    Tuning with e85 and now injectors are fine up until 7200 at which duty cycle jumps from ~80 to the 100’s

    123478AA-3A0B-4F13-9193-183977721495.jpeg

    It’s like chasing my tail over and over and I’m getting tired of not actually driving it :(

    Looks like fuel pressure is dropping again even wth the uprated pump but this has not been confirmed yet.

    tHEre are two fuel filters fitted. So IDK if those are causing a restriction or if it’s becsude I used a barb fitting to join two sections of fuel hose together from the rail (don’t remember if it’s feed or the return)

    So another weekend goes by and more research as to what to do next. *sigh*
    Thinking to draw the line here to be honest.
     
  17. superkarl

    superkarl MAN OF STEEL

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    You need approx 25% more flow for E85 than for conventional fuels. This needs to be taken into account when selecting injectors/pumps/lines


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
  18. BuuBBa

    BuuBBa Member

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    What was the power level with that dyno pull? IMO, if the injectors are running out, the graph should be steady growing up to 100%.
    Is voltage steady (alternator working)? Or maybe try another fuel pressure regulator?
     
  19. IanPG

    IanPG Well-Known Member Team Nogaro Blue Silver Supporter Audi S3

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    I didn’t get a power read out unfortunately. I’ve not asked ...

    Alternator is definitely working. Fpr was switched for a Bosch Oem unit. It’s not that.

    It’s the obvious and that’s merely fuel pump isn’t able to keep up in its stock location using e85. I would need to do a surge tank setup to keep it happy then to keep the injectors from being too high of duty cycle thy would also need an upgrade.
     
  20. BuuBBa

    BuuBBa Member

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    So you have a log of the voltage? Only asking, as my previous car (volvo) had this kind of situation. The voltage was ok when idling and mid revs, but dropped at high rpm.

    I know few 2.7t cars with this pump in original position and pushing 550-600 chp, so it just seems weird not working in 8L with that power/boost levels.
    I'll use the same pump with Nuke surge tank on my S3, but only to have the original pump, so there will be flow to the other side of the tank. Some have had success with aftermarket pumps but others have problems that the fuel is not transfering from other side, so they will have just about half tank capacity in use.
     
  21. IanPG

    IanPG Well-Known Member Team Nogaro Blue Silver Supporter Audi S3

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    I watch the voltage stay at 13.5+ on colormfa

    I’ve done the walbro setup as per a Quattro TT owners setup and he has used the tank down to fumes... once I get mine back I’ll be able to report back if this is the case or not.
     
  22. IanPG

    IanPG Well-Known Member Team Nogaro Blue Silver Supporter Audi S3

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    ... and I drew the line ....

    The fuelling setup is falling short when using e85, have lost the will to keep it at the shop, not drive it, and keep chasing numbers / dumping more and more money into it so I’m going with an Aussie 98 tune (our 98 fuel has a lower octane rating :( ) and just going to drive it for what’s it is.
     
  23. tcg

    tcg Active Member

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    Don't beat yourself up mate,you have a stunning example of a 'wolf in sheep's clothing' and you should enjoy what you've achieved.

    You'll soon have the smile back on your face once you've had some fun.
     
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  24. IanPG

    IanPG Well-Known Member Team Nogaro Blue Silver Supporter Audi S3

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    Thanks mate - i think that's what's been getting me down. The hope for more... then... issue... fixed something up.... was hoping for more.... another issue...

    Just felt like it was never going to end - hence why i'm stopping for now.
     
  25. tcg

    tcg Active Member

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    Once a fantasy becomes a reality,it's no longer a fantasy.

    And like @Stuart B ,you both bought the wrong colour :blink:
     
  26. Prawn

    Prawn My other car is a MINI!!!!

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    It's still going to be well north of 400bhp isn't it? Im sure you'll love it dude
     
  27. Stuart B

    Stuart B Well-Known Member

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    just drive it up to 7200RPM and be done with it. broom broom
     
  28. IanPG

    IanPG Well-Known Member Team Nogaro Blue Silver Supporter Audi S3

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    We’ll see. I’ve gotta run the e85 out first to then put in 98 and upload a 98 tune.

    I forgot how planted Noggie is on bum day especially turning.

    Revlimit 8000rpm
     
  29. Stuart B

    Stuart B Well-Known Member

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    but you have said it doesn't work over 7200. to be honest looking at your chart are you sure the problem isn't between 6600 ad 7200? the rest of the chart looks progressive?

    ianfuel.jpg
     
  30. <tuffty/>

    <tuffty/> Badger 5 Edition...Its all about the flow... Staff Member Moderator Audi S3

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    ECU will ramp up duty cycle to meet requested AFR if pressure starts to drop off...

    tbh between 6.5k and 7.2k duty seems to be settling down... would need to see airflow/boost and AFR to make any real sense of this chart as there is no context

    <tuffty/>
     
  31. IanPG

    IanPG Well-Known Member Team Nogaro Blue Silver Supporter Audi S3

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    They said pressure was holding.

    This is where I don’t have the info as that data wasn’t shared

    I guess I could pull the data myself now that I’ve got the car back. But is it safe for me to do this on the road. I’d be worried about breaking the engine.

    It’s been suggested to bypass everything using a fuel line from pump direct to rail to see if there’s anything in the feed that’s restricting.
     
  32. Prawn

    Prawn My other car is a MINI!!!!

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    I realise I have no experience of such things, so I may be speaking out of turn here, but personally I don' t these super high flow in tank pumps with home made bags etc on the bottom.

    I don't trust them one bit.

    Good known stock in tank pump, in a totally factory housing, feeding an inline da31 or 044 from a proper sized feed via a relay.

    In my opinion that's the best you'll get without changing all the fuel lines and going to a swirl pot setup, but for the power you're wanting you just shouldn't need that.
     
  33. IanPG

    IanPG Well-Known Member Team Nogaro Blue Silver Supporter Audi S3

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    Will see how this setup holds up once the e85 is out and the 98 fuel and tune is back in

    Was bouncing messages back and forth with Brian C who has this pump. Only other stuff that’s different in his setup are way way bigger injectors (1659cc) and some kind of custom in tank surge setup. Dw365 on outside of tank, walbro 450 in the tabknfeeding rail.
     
  34. IanPG

    IanPG Well-Known Member Team Nogaro Blue Silver Supporter Audi S3

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    I decided to go for a drive to run out the e85.
    9B4EDB1A-8097-4F24-BD47-C77AA2F682D7.jpeg

    ... I was getting told “you won’t be able to run the car under a quarter of a tank”. Well looks like that’s incorrect as I got it down to when low fuel level warning come on - literally as I pulled into the drive.

    This morning before I drove to work I stuck my head under the bonnet and found
    3134241B-4D5C-49FE-8B1A-CE9DA794E3B1.jpeg
    So @BuuBBa this made me laugh as you mentioned the alternator thing

    After work I decided to run the fuel down but before this drive I was a tad curious to see if I could pull any codes as when I drove it to work in the morning I decided to check out what the tuner had said that “it falls on it’s face at 1bar” And yes. Definitely at 1 bar there was machine gun action. Much like a misfire. So I let it kiss 1 bar and didn’t go back there again.

    Couldn’t read codes through colormfa as the k line is still running direct to OBD so had to hook up VCDS...

    318A57E6-F5C3-4391-8D4D-DC962DB7CC7C.jpeg

    I had picked up a fresh set of coils before taking it into the shop... I didn’t install them but left them in the passenger seat in case they were needed. Looks like they were because I was able to rev the shizz out of the engine smoothly all the way to rev cut (at~6200_6500) and the car was pulling like no ones business and the boost gauge happily shooting past 1 bar without hesitation.

    .... I’m really not sure what to do now TBH...

    Seems like it’s working OK. Don’t know how much power it’s making as the last runs were met with the fuelling issue as pictured before .... but it was all down to bad coilpacks?
     
    Last edited: Dec 20, 2017
  35. Erikn89nl

    Erikn89nl Well-Known Member

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    Worth another go, if funds allow ofcourse...
     
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  36. IanPG

    IanPG Well-Known Member Team Nogaro Blue Silver Supporter Audi S3

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  37. IanPG

    IanPG Well-Known Member Team Nogaro Blue Silver Supporter Audi S3

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    There are hardly any funds... it’s the most wonderful time of the year

    = I’m poor.
     
  38. Stuart B

    Stuart B Well-Known Member

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    what's going on?

    upload_2017-12-22_21-16-6.png



    Ian, you have "invested" so much now, you have to simply carry on until it's done. just get a second job, sell off the spare S3 etc etc get this thing safely screaming down the road - you have rewritten the book on the S3 modifications you have achieved.

    Whatever happened to that flat cam shaft cover you got from the scrap yard?

    I am so jealous of your care to detail and patience - for me, once I got the car working for more than a day without breaking down - I just wanted more more more power expecting it would soon break again but at least it would be my fault this time, these cars are only fun whilst they are mechanically being worked on - but considering no one now in my family will get in the car in case it breaks down - I am going to have to move on soon.

    even if you "have had enough" you will need to prove it works before taking it apart and selling the bits.

    Is your coil failure not more likely to be caused by whatever the issue was rather than the reason the issue existed?
     
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  39. hydro s3

    hydro s3 S3 amk Team Ming Blue Audi S3

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    Stuart B i think you should start a thread and rebuild urs and get it back going like it should. Then your family might start getting in the car with you again lol.
     
  40. Stuart B

    Stuart B Well-Known Member

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    nope - after all the complaints / whining etc - I have owned this for ages compared to other cars.

    I need to get another "family" car first then I think I want an S4. but I have bought mods for this car and am too honest to sell it for anything more than "a project with an MOT and I cannot guarantee it will make it home" especially as I had to drive it home without a clutch the other day, reminded me of being a teenager in my escort mark 2 getting back from holiday from Swanage as a learner with only 2nd and 4th, no starter motor, handbrake or reverse gear and I had to drive it with the choke out and had to have the heater on to stop it overheating.
     

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