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Next Mod: Milltek Exhaust or Fuel Pump ?

Discussion in 'A3/S3/Sportback (8P Chassis)' started by Iggu, Aug 4, 2008.

  1. Iggu
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    Iggu Active Member

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    [Aug 4, 2008]
    Could some folk out there who are more experienced/knowledgeable than me (ie. anyone) please help ?

    I currently have a SuperChips (bluefin) remap and Forge CAI. Well pleased with the car but am considering my next performance mod - its like an addiction this game !
    I’ve read every thread under the sun (so it feels) and am left with a couple of questions:

    • If I fit a Milltek turbo back exhaust will I need to change the fuel pump internals (Autotech) or will the standard “H” VAG pump which my car has be able to cope with the Intake/Exhaust combo with no problems ?
    • If I already like the SOUND of the OEM exhaust well enough (I do – especially together with the Forge induction) would I be better off just getting the fuel pump upgrade and leaving the exhaust as it is ?
    • Would my existing map (which was done before the Forge CAI was fitted) "adapt" to the new intake/exhaust and learn over time and deliver optimum performance or would it need a brand new map ?
    Any advice you can offer would be great.
    #1
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  3. PaulMc
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    PaulMc Guest

    [Aug 4, 2008]
    One thing is for sure, if you like the sound of the OEM exhaust, keep the standard back box, but definately replace the cat for a freer flowing one (100/200 cell). Assuming the OEM and aftermarket match up. This is what I did on the My M3 CSL. Greater performance, bit more sound, half the cost ;).

    While on that note, I cannot believe the price of Supersprint stuff for the S3. More than twice the price of equivalent Milltek products.
    #2
  4. wolfbane1967
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    wolfbane1967 Member

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    [Aug 4, 2008]
    You dont need a fuelpump upgrade on your superchip map,not even if you choose to fit a full Milltek.It doesent adapt that much

    If i was you you, i have had a full milltek fitted,it lowers your turbo temp.Oem is very restrict at the frontpipe
    #3
  5. phantom
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    phantom On Boost

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    [Aug 4, 2008]
    With the fuel pump , you wouldn't get the best out of it unless you had it re-remapped, and too a lesser extent the exhaust.

    If it were me i'd get the exhaust, you will feel some benefit , but you ARE ready for a stage 2 code really.

    Then get the pump put on , and get it re-remapped, all done , unless you want to go big turbo , but thats ££££s

    p
    #4
  6. Rabbit222
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    Rabbit222 Member

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    [Aug 4, 2008]
    Do the zorst first. If you pick up any low fuel pressure codes after doing the zorst...do the pump upgrade.
    #5
  7. Iggu
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    Iggu Active Member

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    [Aug 4, 2008]
    Thanks for this - pretty much what I'd decided. Big turbo kits are out of the question Phantom unless you fancy doing a bank job with me.
    :idea:
    #6
  8. Iggu
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    Iggu Active Member

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    [Aug 4, 2008]
    Would these error codes pop up on the dash as a standard warning light or would I only see them in VAGCOM ? Cheers.
    #7
  9. newbiecrg
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    newbiecrg windsurfer

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    [Aug 4, 2008]
    I would fit the Miltek, upgrade the pump and then re-calibrate the map!!

    Pedro
    #8
  10. phantom
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    phantom On Boost

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    [Aug 4, 2008]
    Thats right , maybe save up for a while and do the full issue , zorst,pump, and re-remap!

    Should be looking at a nice genuine 340bhp right accross the rev range :)

    p
    #9
  11. S3 Big Andy
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    S3 Big Andy Stealth Beast Baby Yay

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    [Aug 4, 2008]
    Full milltek would be, sorry is what I did!! its feckin great!
    #10
  12. S3-N
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    S3-N ?

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    [Aug 4, 2008]
    :iagree:
    #11
  13. Oli.
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    Oli. Member

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    [Aug 4, 2008]
    Me also
    #12
  14. Rabbit222
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    Rabbit222 Member

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    [Aug 4, 2008]
    No it won't...VAGCOM will pick these errors up. As the other guys have mentioned, Zorst first, pump thereafter and stge2 remap.
    #13
  15. maxS3uk
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    maxS3uk mike

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    [Aug 4, 2008]
    What was the outcome of this 'H' pump, is it just as good as the Autotech upgrade? No mention of this in the post yet...



    ...but Supersprint is alot better quality and finish than the Milltek stuff, pay for what you get I suppose.



    I'm leaving my standard exhaust and fitting a sports downpipe and cat, I also like the tone of the standard exhaust... plus its not so noticeable to the dealers then :thumbsup:
    #14
  16. Rabbit222
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    Rabbit222 Member

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    [Aug 5, 2008]
    The latest revision of the fuel pump is the 'J' pump. I have the 'H' pump in my car and just upgraded the internals to the Autotech internals. A mate of mine has upgraded from the 'H' pump to the 'J' pump and also upgraded the internals to the Autotech bits. I'm not sure if this was necessary though because the 'J' pump supposedly sorts out the low fuel pressure issues experienced by these 2.0TFSI engines....
    #15
  17. Iggu
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    Iggu Active Member

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    [Aug 5, 2008]
    Did you notice a lot more urge in the mid-range after upgrading to Autotech ? Or is it really just for piece of mind - i.e. knowing that your "H" fuel pump isn't working overtime and running the risk of meltdown ?
    Sure I've read somewhere that up to 40bhp extra in the midrange is acheivable from the fuel pump upgrade ALONE.
    #16
  18. Doublemint1984
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    Doublemint1984 Member

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    [Aug 5, 2008]
    Just a quick question: Why is the apr pump so much more expensive than the autotech one?

    PS: Also is it easy to install?
    #17
  19. Rabbit222
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    Rabbit222 Member

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    [Aug 5, 2008]
    I noticed a definite improvement when I just did the upgrade and was running my stock zorst...I'm hoping that REVO releases a fuel pump specific map so that I can utilise this upgrade to its full potential. A mate of mine, thewusman did some data logging and found that he had gained some serious hp after the upgrade...he only has REVO, Forge CAI, Forge DV and the Autotech upgrade.
    #18
  20. Rabbit222
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    Rabbit222 Member

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    [Aug 5, 2008]
    The APR pump is a complete pump whereas the Autotech upgrade is merely the internals. These internals need to be fitted to your existing fuel pump.
    #19
  21. Doublemint1984
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    Doublemint1984 Member

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    [Aug 5, 2008]
    So if my pump is still alright you would think the internals would be enough?

    Is it hard to install for a noob?

    Cheers Rabbit :)
    #20
  22. Rabbit222
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    Rabbit222 Member

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    [Aug 5, 2008]
    Yeah I reckon mate.

    For installation refer to this pdf

    http://www.autotech.com/instructions/i127100k.pdf

    [​IMG]
    #21
  23. Doublemint1984
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    Doublemint1984 Member

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    [Aug 5, 2008]
    Ok...I better get it installed then. lol
    #22
  24. Rabbit222
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    Rabbit222 Member

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    [Aug 5, 2008]
    #23
  25. Doublemint1984
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    Doublemint1984 Member

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    [Aug 5, 2008]
    Thx for posting that mate.
    Might reconsider it then.
    #24
  26. Rabbit222
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    Rabbit222 Member

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    [Aug 5, 2008]
    Don't let that scare you mate :) I read that and still fitted it :) Alot of the tuners out there are using the Autotech upgrade....
    #25
  27. Doublemint1984
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    Doublemint1984 Member

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    [Aug 5, 2008]
    Will get the TBE and air intake installed first and then we'll see if i ll go for the pump before chipping it.
    #26
  28. L60N
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    L60N Guest

    [Aug 5, 2008]
    Get the zorst, then fit the pump, then remap to suit. Jobs a gud un. :)
    #27
  29. jamiekip
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    jamiekip Guest

    [Aug 5, 2008]
    So how much is this uprated fuel pump?
    I might get this done... if it makes 3rd and 4th gears even stronger I'll have to put plastic covers over my seats... I'm loving my car with the GIAC right now!
    #28
  30. Iggu
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    Iggu Active Member

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    [Aug 5, 2008]
    Whichever way you look at it Doublemint the fuel pump route is a risk. I think I'll do the Milltek and maybe leave it at that. Would be nice to see which camshaft part number my car has but I'm not about to take the engine to pieces to find out ......
    #29
  31. aiculedtzu
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    aiculedtzu under pressure

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    [Aug 5, 2008]
    Q: Milltek Exhaust or Fuel Pump ?
    A: Both :)

    And ask Superchips to provide you a stage 2 remap.
    #30
  32. phantom
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    phantom On Boost

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    [Aug 5, 2008]
    You will need to get it re-remapped Jammie to get he most from it.

    p
    #31
  33. S3-N
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    S3-N ?

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    [Aug 5, 2008]
    This made me think twice about the Autotech pump.... ok it's by someone from APR but still an interesting read

    Quote, originally posted by Keith@APR on VWVortex

    As for cost, there are reasons. First of all, if we just wanted to release a handful of parts we could have done this last year. The design had already been tested for thousands of miles at that point and was proven. The issue with this product is ensuring that every single pump installed is 100% because a single bad part can spell disaster. QUALITY, QUALITY, QUALITY! Anyone here who is familiar with quality control especially when dealing with highly critical, incredibly precise parts understands this problem.
    Let me briefly explain what will happen if a high pressure pump fails. These are not "scare tactics". This is an honest explanation of the damage that can occur if one of these pumps go bad! There are several scenarios and none are particularly pretty. In the best scenario, the fuel pump will simply seize on the down stroke. This will simply cause the engine to stall. The fuel pump can be removed and replaced. Another scenario would be the fuel pump seizing on the up stroke. This is a lot worse. This will cause a mechanical failure of the either the pump body, retaining bolts or it will break the intake camshaft in half (remember, the high pressure pump is directly driven off of the intake camshaft.) We have never tested this failure so I can't tell you which one will break first but in any case one of them will. Either of these scenarios can happen if the plunger to barrel clearance is not perfect or if there is some other geometric fault in the assembly. This is not something that can be verified by eye or by feel. We prevent these two situations by certifying ever single plunger/barrel assembly and by testing every single pump that leaves our facility. If there is a problem, we will catch it! Every single pump endures a testing cycle that includes being run at engine redline and full system pressure.
    Another potential high pressure pump failure is leakage of fuel into the engine. This is a potentially catastrophic failure. Since the pump is cam driven, one side of the fuel pump has direct access to the engine's oiling system. If fuel leaks past the fuel pump into the engine, the fuel can dilute the engine oil. The driver may have no clue that this is occuring until it is too late. It does not take a tremendous amount of fuel to dilute the engine oil to the point that the oil loses its lubrication properties. When this occurs you can loses bearings, camshafts, lifters, turbochargers- basically time for a new engine. How can this occur? Very simply. A slight error during assembly and the seal is damaged. A faulty seal can also do this. Even just torquing the retaining nut to the wrong torque can distort the bore of the pump just enough to cause a failure. A tiny amount of extra clearance on the plunger/barrel and the seal won't be able to hold back the pressure (remember, one side of the piston can see up to almost 2000 psi.) There is only one way to verify that this won't happen. Test the pumps before they are put on cars!
    It has been stated that the fuel pump parts are so easy to replace, so why not let the end user do it? Why don't hard drive manufacturers sell replacement platters for do it yourself installation? Heck, there is only like four screws holding a hard drive together? The answer is simple- it is way, way to easy to screw it up and the implications are potentially disastrous. And even if you didn't screw it up you don't know for absolute sure that the pump is good until you put it on the car and test it. We found this concept absolutely entirely unacceptable. Believe me, if we thought it was acceptable we would have done it- it would have eliminated a great deal of work in testing and certifying the pumps and we could definitely have sold the pumps for less (and probably many more of them)!
    Our high pressure fuel pump tester takes care of the problem of verifying the pumps. This was a large engineering undertaking! I won't bore you with too many of the details (we will write an article on the tester soon) but all of the mechanicals and electronics are custom. It is an impressive machine. This was by far the most difficult portion of this project.
    Anyways, every pump is tested and we have enacted numerous quality measures to ensure that we will have a 100% success rate with these pumps so that you guys won't have any problems. Every pump begins with a brand new OEM pump. This affects the cost of course. In the future we hope to have a rebuild program where people can send in their original pumps and we perform the modifications. This will help cost. We will also work to get the cost down in other areas as we ramp the production quantities up.
    I hope I haven't scared anyone away from a high pressure pump upgrade. I am 100% confident in our product. It really is a great upgrade and it paves the way for many more exciting performance upgrades in the future!
    #32
  34. JustCharlie
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    JustCharlie Member

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    [Aug 5, 2008]
    I fitted full Milltek Turbo back and the APR fuel pump and map to suit on my last car, a 57 plate Golf GTi ED30, and can tell you the midrange is fantastic, traction really was an issue with the FWD chassis. One of the reasons I went for the S3 to replace it after I killed it:slapped:. It made 316bhp and 348 ft/lbs, was a real quick car, the fuel pump mod is deffinately worth it
    #33
  35. Iggu
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    Iggu Active Member

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    [Aug 5, 2008]
    Thanks Nick - wasn't it you who was specifically advised by their tuner NOT to change the fuel pump ? Thought I'd seen something in another thread.

    That's settled it for me - if I change the fuel pump I'll do APR or nothing. Thanks everyone: great knowledge on here.
    #34
  36. S3-N
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    S3-N ?

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    [Aug 5, 2008]
    Yeah that was me. I won't be changing mine, even for the APR. They have nothing to gain by not recommending it and actually lose my cash by not doing so. I'm going to just stick with my custom remap.
    #35
  37. JustCharlie
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    JustCharlie Member

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    [Aug 6, 2008]
    All I can say having had a remap with and without the pump on my ED30 the gains are well worth the 500 quid, the increase in midrange was fantastic
    #36

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