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New Specification across the A3 range

Discussion in 'A3/S3/Sportback (8P Chassis)' started by h5djr, Nov 8, 2006.

  1. h5djr
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    h5djr Well-Known Member

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    For the benefit of any of your new members Bowfer hates is DSG and his A3 nearly as much as I love both my A3 and the DSG. We have had many 'discussions' about the merits or otherwise of the DSG in pasts posts. The main problems seems to be that he did not try a DSG before ordering one and as it does not behave how he personally wants, it's all a bad design and all Audi's fault. Some of us did try the DSG before ordering, knew exactly how it would work, liked the way it worked and would not want to change it.

    Personally I have no problem, especially in tip-tronic mode, of pulling out smartly from a roundabout or from a junction in a flow of traffic. My car also never changes up half way through a corner because I change up myself before my car ever reaches max revs, just the same as I would with a manual. I obviously drive in a different manner to Bowfer.
    #81
  2. Amchlolor
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    Amchlolor Active Member

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    And the flip side of the coin,for any newcomer's benefit,is that H5DJR is an apologist for DSG.
    If anyone mentions one of it's many foibles,it's their driving that's at fault.
    The fact that I'm far from the only one that reports these foibles is,apparently,irrelevant.
    #82
  3. h5djr
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    h5djr Well-Known Member

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    Hardly an apologist for the DSG. When it comes to changing my current car I will probably buy another A3 - not sure which model but one thing is certain, whatever I buy will be fitted with a DSG.

    Obviously many people drive differently. It is important for anyone thinking of ordering a new car, especially if it is going to fitted with something different to what they are used to, to test drive one before making the decision to make sure the are happy with the way it works. I have always done this in the past and have never regretted my choice of car.

    Bowfer, I'm sure you have now driven several BMWs which I think you will be ordering for your next car. At least you will know what to expect from these and will be much happier and enjoy your driving again. It's unfortunate for you that you have to keep your A3 until your boss lets you change.
    #83
  4. Amchlolor
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    Amchlolor Active Member

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    You are an apologist for DSG David.
    You've gone and done it again in your post above.
    You are insinuating,yet again,that it is the way people drive that is at fault in any criticism of DSG.
    From what I've seen in my time on here,you're the only DSG owner that hasn't found some aspect of it's performance annoying,at some point.
    Everyone at least acknowledges the likes of the DSG delay,apart from you,for example.
    #84
  5. MattW
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    MattW Reverse

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    I test drove DSG and didn't like it. I had an incorrect assumption that it was semi automatic and it's not, as it will change down even in Sport mode. I also didn't agree with the gears it chose for me, much prefer the 6 speed manual on my wife's Golf 140.

    However a mate took a new 3.2 TT out with DSG and said it was the dogs. Maybe it suits the petrol better.
    #85
  6. Vertigo1
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    Vertigo1 Well-Known Member

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    I'll just add my voice to that of MattW and re-emphasise that I DID make a point of taking an decent test drive of a DSG equipped car before I made my choice and went from being sure I wanted it beforehand to adamant that I didn't afterward.
    #86
  7. h5djr
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    h5djr Well-Known Member

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    The most important thing is to test drive a DSG equipped car BEFORE ordering one and to test drive it both D/S mode and tip-tronic. If the tip-tronic mode was not available I'm not sure I would be so keen on it. I fully accept that not everyone will like the DSG in the same way as not everyone likes an normal automatic or even a manual. Some of Audis previous manual boxes fitted to the A3 were less than perfect.

    As far as my own DSG is concerned, I do not experience any delay when I pull away in tip-tronic mode. I fully accept that some people do. It's either something you accept and work around or do not accept and constantly moan about.

    Lets just leave it at the position where I think the DSG is probably the best gearbox than has ever been fitted to an A3 and you think it's horrible.

    As has already been said by others and I have said many times in the past, each to his own. At least Audi gives us the choice - DSG or Manual. Whichever one you prefer and suits you best.

    One think that is now getting a bigger factor for me personally is that I suffer from bad knee joints and constantly pushing a clutch pedal down, even more so with a diesel, would very quickly become very painful, so the DSG is an answer to a prayer, so to speek. A much better alternative than having to go to a 'normal' automatic.
    #87
  8. Vertigo1
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    Vertigo1 Well-Known Member

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    The delays and ponderousness are real and affect all DSG gearboxes, not just some of them. If you're able to live with it then fine but don't for a moment assume that means the delays aren't there - they are.

    Think about it, when sitting at a junction waiting to go, the revs are at idle. Before the DSG can release the clutch it has to wait for the revs to rise as otherwise the car would stall. This introduces a brief delay that simply wouldn't be necessary with a manual as you can hold the revs up yourself and drop the clutch instantly. This is a fundamental issue with all automatic boxes. The launch control system was introduced to get around this problem, by letting you hold some revs whilst stationary by using the brake to tell the box not to release the clutch but this isn't available on diesels and even on models which have it I've heard that it doesn't work very well.
    Err, what? You'll change gear a damn site more with a petrol than a diesel!
    #88
  9. Amchlolor
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    Amchlolor Active Member

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    Test drives aren't the be all and end all.
    No,I didn't test drive a DSG before ordering one,I admit that.
    However,for the first few weeks of ownership,I thought DSG was great.
    It took weeks for the "wait a blinking minute,that's not right" scenarios to creep into my ownership experience.
    I doubt a test drive would have shown them up,but it's a moot point now.

    I simply don't have time for test drives really.
    I work full time and I have a young family.
    I tend to look at press reports.
    If they say it's good,I tend to go along with that.
    It's stood me in good stead for years.

    Golf Gti 1.8 turbo
    Alfa 156
    Audi A4

    Three cars I didn't test drive before ordering and was happy with.
    #89
  10. h5djr
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    h5djr Well-Known Member

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    Not in my experience. Before I bought my current 2.0TDI I had a test drive in a manual 2.0TDI, a DSG 2.0TDI and a 2.0FSI. I quickly discounted the 2.0FSI as it had no go at all. The 2.0 TDIs gave very similar performance to my existing A3 which then was a 1.8T Sport. But the thing that struck me was how much more often I had to change gear because of the shorter rev range of the diesel. The 1.8T would allow me to change gear at say 5000-5700rpm whereas the 2.0 TDI needed a change at say 4,000rpm or less. I certainly found I needed to change much more often than I had been used to with any of my previous petrol engined cars. This is one of the reasons I really liked the DSG - no clutch and gear changes at the flick of a lever or paddle.

    As far as the hesitation is concerned, when I am stopped at a junction or roundabout waiting for a space, I tend to always have first already engaged with the car creeping very slightly, if necessary being held by the handbrake. When a gap appears I press the accelerator and release the brake and away it goes with no delay whilst 1st is engaged and the DSG handling the 1st -2nd change that comes up very quickly at around 4000rpm. I'm quite happy using the handbrake as I when I was taught to drive some 42 years ago I was always taught to apply the handbrake whenever I was stopped, for whatever reason, and have always been used to doing so, even with a manual clutch. Perhaps this is the reason why I don't seem to suffer from any hesitation.
    #90
  11. Vertigo1
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    Vertigo1 Well-Known Member

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    The diesels may have a limited upper rev limit compared to the petrols but what you were obviously forgetting how low they'll pull from. The engine will pull quite healthily from around 1500rpm to the 4000rpm red line which, in 3rd gear, equates to a speed range of around 30mph to over 80mph, meaning you can stay in 3rd virtually all the time when tooling around.
    #91
  12. giblets46
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    giblets46 Member

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    Just ordered a new A3 for work ( 2.TDI SE since you ask!), i noted the quotation has worked out about £250-300 more than about a month ago,w ill be accounted for by the 'upgrade'.
    #92
  13. h5djr
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    h5djr Well-Known Member

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    I think 80mph in 3rd gear in a Audi 2.0 TDI would be rather noisy and not do a lot for the overall fuel comsumption. I personally and my passengers prefer a more relaxed form of driving.
    #93
  14. vagman
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    vagman Member

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    a. it does give the same control as a manual, i.e. paddles or stick....you choose

    b. it will replace outdated technology, i.e. manual gearboxes

    End of......................and you know it.:racer: :footy:
    #94
  15. Vertigo1
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    Vertigo1 Well-Known Member

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    LOL, biggest load of **** I've read on here for ages.

    If DSG is so vastly superior to everything else in the known universe, why has not a single other manufacturer yet copied it?
    #95
  16. vagman
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    vagman Member

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    Vertigo, how many miles have you driven in a DSG equipped car. Not many, I'll bet. This is my 3rd car with DSG and I know how to use it. Now when I say I get no delays, then I mean I get NO delays.

    Oh..........and what ******** re launch control. LC is a gimmick with no practical day to day use and certainly not designed for holding revs whilst stationary at a junction.
    #96
  17. marriedblonde
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    marriedblonde Moderator

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    DSG is brilliant but it is flawed. There is no way it offers the same control as a manual gearbox. Thats without taking into account the clunkiness that effects the DSG with miles. I understand that a change of oil will help smooth things out, but mine with 35K on the clock is not the last word in smoothness.

    I wouldn't bet against it becoming the norm and replacing manual gearbox's but it is a long, long, way off. Good first attempt but they can, and must, do better!

    Don't even get me started on the delay when trying to pull away from a standing start -try getting out of a busy junction or onto a busy roundabout!

    Put my car up the strip at inters this year and every time I was left sat on the start line as you can't launch the bloody thing!

    A friends got the 3.2 TT and it too suffers from the dreaded delay but at least he can use launch control to get round this!

    I had a couple of long test drives and loved DSG hence I ordered it but the more I drive with it the more I am oing off it. I wont say I hate it and I can see it has merits but I wont be ordering it next time round.

    Hmmm which do you change gear in more often... I'd say the denzel needs a lot of cog shifting due to the narrow power band. I've never changed gear in a petrol car as often as I do in my Tdi This obviously is down to my driving style but to nip on it needs a lot of cog swapping. Relaxed driving requires a lot less cog changes comopared to a petrol though!

    J.
    #97
  18. h5djr
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    h5djr Well-Known Member

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    Just found this piece of information....

    "Volkswagen already announced that they plan on replacing all their automatic transmission vehicles with DSG in the next five years and here's a stat for you -- half of all GTIs sold are equipped with paddle shifters.

    DaimlerChrysler has recognized the benefits of the DSG over conventional, torque converter-equipped automatics and has decided to invest $560 million in a new assembly plant in Kokomo, Indiana to manufacturer their own version of the DSG. Partnering with Getrag, the automaker plans on creating 700,000 units annually, with production set to begin in 2009. The models that stand to benefit from the new transmission are primarily front-wheel drive vehicles, including the Avenger, Sebring and all manner of minivan. Additionally, the transmission will find an ideal partner with D.C.'s new Phoenix V6 engine, which will also make an appearance in 2010."

    So perhaps some manufacturers are already trying to copy the technology. By all accounts it took the joint efforts of Boug-Warner and Volkswagen five years to develop the current DSG and no doubt the development is continuing. The next stage is to develop a version for the longitudinal mounted engines.

    I also agree with marriedblonde, it will be a long time before the DSG replaces the manual gearbox, at least in Europe. In the US the automatic has already all but replaced it. Perhaps a greater market for the DSG, hence DaimlerChrysler's interest.
    #98
  19. h5djr
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    h5djr Well-Known Member

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    and another one....

    BorgWarner will provide its industry-first dual-clutch DualTronic transmission technology to Shanghai Automobile Gear Works, a subsidiary of Shanghai Automotive Industry Co. (SAIC), for the development of China's first dual-clutch transmission.
    #99
  20. h5djr
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    h5djr Well-Known Member

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    and yet another snippet...

    Volkswagen has applied for over 70 patents relating to this gearbox technology.

    The Direct Shift Gearbox is produced at the Volkswagen gearbox plant in Kassel, the leading gearbox manufacturer and key component supplier for the Volkswagen Group worldwide. To date since production start-up in June 2003, almost 60,000 DSG systems have been produced there for the Golf, Touran, Audi TT, Audi A3, Seat Altea and Skoda Octavia. Daily production output is currently at around the 500 mark. Volkswagen has invested EUR 150 million in DSG production facilities, and around 330 of the approx. 15,000-strong workforce in Kassel are involved in the manufacture of this technological innovation.
  21. A3_3.2_S-Line
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    A3_3.2_S-Line Member

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    Oh my word, I just noticed this post going onto its third page and i thought what the hell.


    I cant belive the cat fight i have found.

    :box: :slapped: :eiertritt:




    DSG is a amazing gearbox the fact that a 7 speed version of it is found in the worlds fastest prodcution car is saying somthing.


    But for me automatics are for lazy people, people that cant change gear smoothly and my mum.

    What I really cant understand is then when people order there TDI or Turbo they tick the DSG box over quattro box. I mean whats that about?:nyah:
  22. benw123
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    benw123 Moderator

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    That's an interesting stat. Given that 900 A3s roll off the production line each day for all markets, and that those 500 DSGs could be going to all manner of VAG products, it means a huge chunk of the A3 population has a manual gearbox. Since the DSG is quite popular in the UK, I wonder where all those manuals are going?

    For what it's worth, I've not tried DSG but must admit that when working out which Sportback model to go for it just never once crossed my mind that I should consider it. I suppose automatics are off the radar for me - just my own personal choice.

    I've driven thousands of miles however around the States in conventional automatics and appreciate the benefits, particularly around town. They work perfectly with cruise control too, but I like the control of a manual.
  23. Vertigo1
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    Vertigo1 Well-Known Member

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    Utter rubbish. Leaving aside the pathetic ponderousness when stamping on the throttle whilst cruising and instead concentrating solely on pulling away from a junction, the revs HAVE to be allowed to rise before the clutch is released thus there is a delay, however small. This is basic physics and no amount of protests by you is going to change that. When was the last time you drove a manual? I'd suggest you've been so blinded by autos that your brain has tuned out the delays.
    So if it's a pointless gimmick why did they add it at all? If there are no delays like you said then it should accelerate just as fast by just stamping on the accelerator whilst at a standstill as using launch control, but it doesn't. LC was created to get round the pull-away delays and keep the 0-60 times down, which would explain why only the 3.2V6 had it to start with as these were the "performance" models.
    All that says it that DSG is better than a standard torque convertor auto - big surprise there! If it's so fabulous why aren't they replacing all their manuals too? All the quotes you posted are only talking about DSG replacing standard autos.
    The fact that cars such as the McLaren F1, Pagani Zonda, Carrera GT & Ferrari F40, to name but a few, all come with manuals says far more.

    Whilst the Veyron may use a version of the DSG box, it's a totally different unit designed from scratch for that car (it's got an extra gear for a start). I've said before in this thread that there's nothing inherently wrong with the technology itself, it's the software that lets it down. The box is technically capable of shifting gear instantly but it just doesn't, so the software is obviously to blame. Given the amount of money they had to play with whilst developing the Veyron, they've obviously managed to get it working right in that application.

    The DSG box is fundamentally a good design with many advantages but it's badly flawed in some areas and I just wish they'd address them. At least I've got a balanced enough view to recognise that it has strengths and weaknesses, unlike some here who obviously believe it's 100% perfect, has no issues whatsoever and is better than normal autos and manuals in every conceivable way.
  24. h5djr
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    h5djr Well-Known Member

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    Over time I sure the DSG will improve as further development work goes on. After all it took a very long time to get a manual gearbox to it's present level. I think I also have a balanced view having driven various vehicles with manual gearboxes, some good, some not bad, and some awful, for the last 39 years. My own preference now is for the DSG over the manual. I don't say it's better that a manual, it's just different and for me personally, a better choice. Any 'flaws' that it may have I have found ways to overcome them in everyday driving. It's much better than a 'normal' auto. But as I always say, Audi give us the choice, so everyone can try it and make up their own mind if they think it will suit them and the way they want to drive. The most important thing is to TRY BEFORE YOU BUY !
  25. Amchlolor
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    Amchlolor Active Member

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    LOL !!

    You're mad !

    and your car sits too high....

    ;-)

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