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MY2009 S3 owners: check this TSB if you are suffering from misfires / erratic idle

Discussion in 'A3/S3/Sportback (8P Chassis)' started by warren_S5, Mar 4, 2010.

  1. warren_S5
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    warren_S5 Moderator Staff Member Moderator VCDS Map User

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    [Mar 4, 2010]
    Apologies if this has been posted before, had a quick look and couldn't find anything specific to this TSB.

    LINK: http://www.websmart.gr/redir_images/documents/bulletin-s3-CDL.pdf

    For 2009/(other?) cars suffering misfires, may be worth referring your dealer to this TSB.

    Turned up following a search of web material for an '08 Leon Cupra with a similar issue.

    Cheers

    W
    #1
  2. Ads

    Ads

    [Nov 23, 2014]

  3. Staz
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    Staz is a retronaut Staff Member Moderator VCDS Map User

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    [Mar 4, 2010]
    My idle has been a bit wobbly for a while but I don't suffer with misfires. Service due soon so I may ask them to check it out anyway.
    #2
  4. warren_S5
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    warren_S5 Moderator Staff Member Moderator VCDS Map User

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    [Mar 4, 2010]
    +1, particularly when car gets hot.

    Initially thought it was an air leak. Found out it wasn't as when fixed it continued. Then I changed the full exhaust system and hoped that may improve matters a bit. Nope :no:

    So a couple of weeks ago I changed the plugs, cleaned all the connectors, checked all connections, checked the DV, had a new cam lobe put in the fuel pump system, cleaned the filter head and it still did it. Re-fitted catch can, no change.

    Part of me wonders whether it is due to the MAF getting very hot in the metal air filter housing as the metal must get hotter than the plastic of the OEM filter housing. Whether this accentuates it I don't know.

    However, what worries me more is that carbonification of the internal engine valves may mean that the valves are not operating / closing properly due to build ups, and leaves me in the ball park of considering WMI in the next few months (as this may clean the system through).

    Problem is I've just spent £300 on some fans (out of warranty), £900 on an exhaust, £200 on VAG com, and have rear pads, tyres and clutch to sort in the next 6 months so money is running thin for this years mods budget :(

    If I find anything on my searches I'll post it here.
    #3
  5. Staz
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    Staz is a retronaut Staff Member Moderator VCDS Map User

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    [Mar 4, 2010]
    Hmm I see, in that case it'll probably help you massively if I have mine checked under warranty :icon_thumright:

    Start of next month I think it'll be mate.
    #4
  6. GConn
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    GConn Member

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    [Mar 4, 2010]
    I've been looking for this TSB for ages. Thank you very very very very much :)
    #5
  7. Phil_T
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    Phil_T Revo Stage 2+ Audi S3

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    [Mar 4, 2010]
    So what if this happens & you have a remap. I guess that means Audi will wipe it to fix all the details in the pdf??
    #6
  8. S3RYE
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    S3RYE Interior Next!!

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    [Mar 4, 2010]
    yes i would like to know this... my car was built in sep 08 i think... but i suffer from misfires in 2nd & 3rd gear above 6000rpm.. only after the remap though. so if i take it into audi mentioning this problem are they 1, going to blame the map? 2, going to remove the map and sort it out costing me money :crying:

    let us know cause i was goint to book it in next week to try and solve problems... i always thought the misfires were to do with the exhaust being too restrictive :no:
    #7
  9. GConn
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    GConn Member

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    [Mar 4, 2010]
    How can I find out if my car relates to this exact TSB? Can anyone help me out? Thanks

    #8
  10. warren_S5
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    warren_S5 Moderator Staff Member Moderator VCDS Map User

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    [Mar 4, 2010]
    As you are within warranty, they could load over your map. They did it to mine whilst trying to resolve a missfire back in '07 which turned out to be a defective spark plug (diagnosed by an independent). I had to go back to Revo and get them to re-load it. It is more difficult if you go direct to an independent as they buy credits for maps, and this does not include 're-remapping' cars that have already been mapped. You may want to contact Revo direct if this happens (you'll generally know as you have to sign paperwork for the software revision at Audi), so you get it resolved quickly and without hassle.
    #9
  11. Muneeb S3
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    Muneeb S3 Member

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    [Mar 4, 2010]
    I get a misfire under hard load over 6000rpm. I spoke to Mike at Votex ,who loaded my Revo map, about the misfire issue a while ago. He showed me the TSB and suggested it may be the reason why. I then asked him to put the car back to stock so I could take the S3 back to Audi to get the work carried under warranty. Sods law is that no matter how hard I tried I could not replicate the problem.

    The misfire seems to appear when the car is running higher boost. Audi couldn't find the misfire and I had enough running the car stock so Mike kindly put the map back on. There is a revo file available that cures the problem. The alternative is an aftermarket TB exhaust also helps. As I'm getting the TB Milltek soon its not an issue to me anymore.
    #10
  12. Johnnyb
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    Johnnyb Member

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    [Mar 4, 2010]
    PhilT

    Hello mate, are you still getting the same misfire as me? at motorway cruising speeds and not accelerating?

    Thanks
    #11
  13. S3RYE
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    S3RYE Interior Next!!

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    [Mar 4, 2010]
    ok i had a feeling this would happen as i know it wont happen without the map!

    im not too worried about it neither as im goin to go for a milltek soon which i know helps the problem. ive also added a evoms intake recently and thats seems to have made a bit of difference, might just be me though :think:
    #12
  14. Marc_86
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    Marc_86 New Member

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    [Mar 5, 2010]
    I had the same issue with my Revo map but no problems on standard. All i did was get the car to misfire and log the EC then flash to stock and take it back to audi. After trying a new coilpack on cyl 3 they then decided to do the valve replacement. Been great since even with the tune. The only issue I'vd has is a sort of pulsating air noise from the engine or turbo. It only happens under WOT and in the mid range when the Revo tune it active. Is this normal or should i get it checked out?
    #13
  15. S3RYE
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    S3RYE Interior Next!!

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    [Mar 5, 2010]
    maybe im goin to have to order a select switch, then take it to audi :motz:

    will Amd reload the software though afterwards? or will having the select switch enable me to reflash the ECU? this is so annoying!!! i got this flutter from the moment it was mapped.. i think this is pretty normal and due to increased boost levels.. im really lost woth all of this!
    #14
  16. KRL
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    KRL Member

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    [Mar 5, 2010]
    For those that are getting misfires and running a REVO map what settings are you running? Also have you taken any logs of when the misfire occurs?
    #15
  17. Muneeb S3
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    Muneeb S3 Member

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    [Mar 5, 2010]
    I am running 6 9 6. My misfire doesn't bring up any fault codes.
    #16
  18. KRL
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    KRL Member

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    [Mar 5, 2010]
    By logs I mean logging your engine block during a WOT run in 3/4th gear. For misfires you could log something like this:

    Misfire-Specific DIAGNOSIS
    Item # Vag-Com Block # Description
    1 001-1 Engine Speed
    2 054-3 Accelerator Pedal Position
    3 054-4 Throttle Plate Angle
    4 101-3 Injection Timing (Median)
    5 115-3 Boost Pressure (Specified)
    6 115-4 Boost Pressure (Actual)
    7 003-2 Intake Air Mass
    8 230-2 Rail Pressure - Actual
    9 015-1 Misfire Cyl 1
    10 015-2 Misfire Cyl 2
    11 015-3 Misfire Cyl 3
    12 016-1 Misfire Cyl 4

    So you are running B6 T6 F9?
    Last edited: Mar 5, 2010
    #17
  19. JohnS3
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    JohnS3 Active Member

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    [Mar 5, 2010]
    If you have a misfire accompanied by the ECU light flashing on the dash you should see a VCDS log like this...

    Address 01: Engine Labels: 06F-907-115-AXX.lbl
    Part No SW: 8P0 907 115 H HW: 8P0 907 115 B
    Component: 2.0l R4/4V TFSI 0020
    Revision: 5BH16--- Serial number:
    Coding: 01030003180F0060
    Shop #: WSC 79156 664 452390

    2 Faults Found:
    000768 - Random/Multiple Cylinder Misfire Detected
    P0300 - 001 - Upper Limit Exceeded - Intermittent
    Freeze Frame:
    Fault Status: 00100001
    Fault Priority: 0
    Fault Frequency: 1
    Mileage: 6402 km
    Time Indication: 0
    Date: 2008.03.14
    Time: 17:03:23

    Freeze Frame:
    RPM: 5576 /min
    Load: 49.8 %
    Speed: 170.0 km/h
    Temperature: 82.0∞C
    Temperature: 23.0∞C
    Absolute Pres.: 1000.0 mbar
    Voltage: 14.224 V

    000771 - Cylinder 3: Misfire Detected
    P0303 - 001 - Upper Limit Exceeded - Intermittent
    Freeze Frame:
    Fault Status: 00100001
    Fault Priority: 0
    Fault Frequency: 1
    Mileage: 6402 km
    Time Indication: 0
    Date: 2008.03.14
    Time: 17:03:23

    Freeze Frame:
    RPM: 5576 /min
    Load: 49.8 %
    Speed: 170.0 km/h
    Temperature: 82.0∞C
    Temperature: 23.0∞C
    Absolute Pres.: 1000.0 mbar
    Voltage: 14.224 V
    #18
  20. S3RYE
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    S3RYE Interior Next!!

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    [Mar 5, 2010]
    this is all cobble talk to me.... could someone advise me as to what the best thing to do is... :banghead:
    #19
  21. KRL
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    KRL Member

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    [Mar 5, 2010]
    Before anything can be advised I would need to see some proper logs of the misfire occurring. I am guessing you might be able to get round the problem by running different settings on the revo map but before I can advise any changes I would need to see some logs of WOT runs with the misfire.

    Obviously changing your revo settings is not the solution and would only be a workaround until the valve springs are replaced (if the valve springs are the root cause). The fact that you do not get the problem at stock indicates that we might be able to get round this to some extent by changing some settings.
    Last edited: Mar 5, 2010
    #20
  22. KRL
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    KRL Member

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    [Mar 5, 2010]
    Does the ITG have a heat shield between the turbo manifold and the maf piping? It probably does but if not this could be a worthwhile purchse if you think the piping is getting too hot. You could also try wrapping the pipe in some heat reflecting material.

    Same here. I don't think there is any easy way to check the intake valves? WM is something I have been considering so would be really interested to hear about any experiences with it.
    #21
  23. warren_S5
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    warren_S5 Moderator Staff Member Moderator VCDS Map User

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    [Mar 5, 2010]
    Yep, heat shield in. Car runs at just over 900rpm on the nail at idle until the car gets hot, then as soon as it does it drops to 780rpm and then can settle at 800/820. Makes me wonder if the engine is reacting to heat soak, or maybe a sensor is on the way out. Once cold again it reverts to normal. I am going to get some serious heat reflector wrap for the intake piping, and see if I can get anyone to bodge me a phenolic gasket membrane to fit between the MAF and the metal CAI pipework (to reduce heat transfer into the MAF sensor). Some companies make phenolic gaskets for inlet manifolds to reduce intake temps.


    Unfortunately not, so WMI seems to be the only way. I want it to be fully reversible, so want to insure that when it is plumbed in it is boost regulated (not constant), and runs off a separate tank located in the boot. Couple of guys on Seatcupra.net have seen some amazing results with it, and whilst I've never been a fan of temporary fixes, this seems to offer a safety net to ensure any internal damage is limited. A borescope will not see the back of the valves as it enters through the plug aperture, but whether it could see anything through the injector port I don't know.
    #22
  24. KRL
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    KRL Member

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    [Mar 5, 2010]
    Just a thought...

    Have you tried seeing how the car idles with the MAF unplugged? With the MAF unplugged the ECU should revert to some fixed MAF tables. If it is the MAF causing your idle issues unplugging and seeing a stable idle would make the MAF a more likely culprit.

    I'm pretty sure my S3 idles at~1100rpm when cold and then drops to 800rpm after that. I have not paid too much attention to this though as I have not really noticed the car idling eratically.
    #23
  25. warren_S5
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    warren_S5 Moderator Staff Member Moderator VCDS Map User

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    [Mar 8, 2010]
    PROGRESS

    Had some time to @r$e about in the car this weekend, and after checking / rechecking and triple checking all connections / pipework and doing a VAGCOM throttle body alignment, I have had a luckyish moment (depending on how you look at it, and what the diagnosis ends up being).

    Turn car on (Idle): 1,100rpm
    Cold start cycle ends (Idle): 900rpm
    Car gets very warm (Idle): 780-800rpm (Inconsistent)

    So eventually as it is warm and I'm driving about, I notice the air con is turned off, so I turn it back on again.

    Idle returns to 900rpm (even when the car is hot), and sits there on the nail. Turn it off, and it drops to 780rpm, then starts to idle a touch erratically.

    No error codes, and the net upshot is if I run the air con it seems absolutely fine, and pretty much solid. Is it just down to the engine knowing the car is running the air con pump so it pushes the idle up to cope, or the cooling effect of the fan running is taking some strain off when the belts run? Tough one to call.

    Any thoughts / words of wisdom???
    #24
  26. KRL
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    KRL Member

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    [Mar 8, 2010]
    Interesting. By "air con turned off" do you mean the climate control is not set to auto?
    #25
  27. Staz
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    Staz is a retronaut Staff Member Moderator VCDS Map User

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    [Mar 8, 2010]
    I assume he means the ECON mode is selected thereby disabling the air con compressor.
    #26
  28. warren_S5
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    warren_S5 Moderator Staff Member Moderator VCDS Map User

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    [Mar 8, 2010]
    correct

    seems a strange 'fix', but a welcome one for now
    #27
  29. Staz
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    Staz is a retronaut Staff Member Moderator VCDS Map User

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    [Mar 8, 2010]
    I'd have to know something about the two idling processes before I could guess at why there's a difference.

    Warren can you see any movement on the rev needle or is it that you can just feel a bit of a bumpy idle through the pedals when stationary?
    #28
  30. warren_S5
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    warren_S5 Moderator Staff Member Moderator VCDS Map User

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    [Mar 8, 2010]
    when the ECON button is on (lit red), the idle needle does bump about a bit (780-800rpm), and you can really feel the erratic idle when hot (less so when the car hasn't been running so long).

    when the ECON button is OFF (not lit), the idle is solid at 900rpm, but you can feel a very slight engine fluctuation through the car every 5-6 seconds, but MUCH less noticeable.
    #29
  31. warren_S5
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    warren_S5 Moderator Staff Member Moderator VCDS Map User

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    [Mar 8, 2010]
    Service bulletin from POST #1 linked to FAQ thread
    #30
  32. Staz
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    Staz is a retronaut Staff Member Moderator VCDS Map User

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    [Mar 8, 2010]
    I see. My needle doesn't move at all (I normally have ECON on) but I can feel the bumps. I'm booked in for next Friday so we'll see what they come up with.
    #31
  33. Staz
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    Staz is a retronaut Staff Member Moderator VCDS Map User

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    [Mar 18, 2010]
    The link has gone dead Warren. Did you save the file?
    #32
  34. GConn
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    GConn Member

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    [Mar 18, 2010]
    I have the file saved Staz, how do I share it? Can't upload it to the forum
    #33
  35. Staz
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    Staz is a retronaut Staff Member Moderator VCDS Map User

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    [Mar 18, 2010]
    YHPM :icon_thumright:
    #34
  36. warren_S5
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    warren_S5 Moderator Staff Member Moderator VCDS Map User

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    [Mar 29, 2010]
    Car has gone back into Audi this morning.

    Demonstrated the issue to the service tech, and I don't know whether it was just that he'd had a heavy weekend, or that £125+VAT doesn't buy much in the way of technical excellence these days as he looked at me as if I was the one with the issues (and not the car).

    So he can see it happening - I change from ECON to full climate, and the revs go from solid 900rpm to a slightly wobbly 750rpm at idle. He concludes it's normal.

    I asked why it didn't do it until end of last year.

    He replies, I don't know, I haven't seen another S3 to know if this is normal or not. Then he tells me they don't have one in to test. Foolishly he assumes I hadn't been an internal auditor for 4 years (I had to pay for previous life sins I presume), and I had noted a 57 on the used forecourt, and a '10 in the showroom.

    At this point feeling a bit fobbed off, but then he comes in with the right hook. If there was an issue you'd have a warning light on the dash!! (one of my personal favourites).

    At this point I get a touch spiky. I explain I have a 2,000+ mile journey to complete overseas next month, and I want the car to be serviced and healthy, and if this is an indicator of an upcoming failure, then I would just like them to investigate ahead of me leaving Blighty and getting stuck on the autoroutes. The vacancy and lack of interest on his face was so intent, you'd think I asked him to listen to me tell him about the process for how paint dries.

    The saga continues. No doubt I'll get a job sheet tonight with No Fault Found to add to the rising piles of other ones I have filed in our cabinet under 'Bull$h1t'.

    I can't believe companies can demonstrate this level of mediocrity at this level in this industry and stay in business. It's a travesty.

    EDIT AFTERTHOUGHT: I just know I'll get a call shortly saying it is the modifications and nothing to do with them (at which point I'll just sell up!)
    Last edited: Mar 29, 2010
    #35
  37. Staz
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    Staz is a retronaut Staff Member Moderator VCDS Map User

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    [Mar 29, 2010]
    I feel for you Warren. I'd have gone a bit crazy.

    I'm still waiting for a call back on my car so I can't give much in a way of help but when I asked about the idling problem on collection I was told that it was down to the clutch slipping problem. After getting quite annoyed by that explanation they got the tech out who said he hadn't actually managed to replicate the symptoms. I took him out to the car and it turns out they had disabled ECON mode thereby hiding the symptom. I put it back on and got the tech to sit in the seat. He said he could feel it and then advised that they'd look at it when I take the car back in and they'd compare it to another S3. As far as I'm concerned if a car has a rough idle then there's something not right. It's a new type of engine with fresh oil and it should purr like a kitten. Audi don't seem to agree though.
    #36
  38. warren_S5
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    warren_S5 Moderator Staff Member Moderator VCDS Map User

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    [Mar 29, 2010]
    I feel for you too as there is nothing worse than having shelled out for a focussed performance vehicle and then for the dealer to say "oh that's how it's supposed to run" when you know from driving it daily that it isn't.

    It seems Audi dealers are pre-programmed to say 'No' until proven otherwise, and it's just starting to get a bit repetitive for me.

    Best of luck with it, and keep at them!
    #37
  39. CJ3BLUE
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    [Mar 29, 2010]
    Had this issue with girlfriends car A3 2.0 tdi 140,would idle irractically from cold start up,revs would 'hunt' up and down and occasionally car would stall rolling upto a junction etc.
    Once car had reached operating temp it seemed to be much better.
    With air con switched off problem got worse back on again got better ? I assumed this was due to the ecu increasing the idle to accomodate for the compressor starting up hence kind of hiding the irratic idle.
    Eventually got it into Audi and after a week of computer says "no" and a few calls to HQ in Germany (so they told me) they came back and said the ECU was faulty (signal to injectors) and needed a new one to the tune of just shy of a 1K inc the computor says no diagnostics !
    Car runs fine now had no issues.......now i dont know if the "experts" at audi thought sod it if we change the ecu its bound to sort it ...and got lucky ! Or it really was faulty........due to the constant phone calls (on my part) all that week for updates etc i really dont know !!
    #38
  40. aodwyer
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    aodwyer New Member

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    [Mar 29, 2010]
    I've just got my S3 back from my local dealer after what has seemed like an age.

    Initially I took it down to be checked because the Engine Emissions light kept flashing on when the engine was sat at 3,500 revs in 6th. As soon as the revs dropped the light turned itself off. Audi's initial diagnosis was a misfire on all 4 cylinders. They checked the coil packs and spark plugs, which were fine, and said that the cause was the Exhaust Valve Springs (as suggested by Warren). Having replaced these and 'tested' the car they said the fault had been dealt with and I could pick up my car. After collecting the car I tested it myself only to find that the fault still occurred, so straight back to Audi then.

    What ensued was around 3 weeks of head scratching by Audi. New coil packs, spark plugs and injectors were fitted none of which cured the fault. I then had to wait while the dealer sourced a donor vehicle to test against, as they now thought it might be the cylinder head that was the problem. Using the parts from the donor car they established that my car had a faulty ECU, which has a 10 day lead time to be delivered to the dealer.

    As I said at the start I now have the car back and after a blast at the weekend all seems fine. I can't say that I'd noted the revs being erratic at idle, but I had noticed it sounded rough. This has definitely been cured as well, which is probably no surprise given the number of parts 'replaced'.

    As a bit of background the car is a 58 plate and is totally stock, so no remap issues to negotiate, and all this work was carried out under warranty.

    On another point I have to say that I actually got some rather good service out of the dealer, this may well have been due to the fact that they didn't correct the fault at the first attempt. Even so they did actually keep in regular contact with me about the status of the car, rather than me chasing them, as has been my previous experience with other dealers. They even called to ask if I'd like to swap my courtesy car for a better one as they had had several better spec'd vehicles returned to them from other customers.
    #39
  41. Staz
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    Staz is a retronaut Staff Member Moderator VCDS Map User

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    [Mar 29, 2010]
    I think Warren needs to take a trip to them!

    It seems a little bit of an overkill to have to replace the entire ECU IMHO. From what I understand ECUs are becoming more firmware based than anything so I'd have expected Audi/Bosch to develop them in a way that means that they can be updated to solve problems such as this. After all the timing of the engine is all controlled by software.
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