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My Shark Stage 1 and DSG remap experiences! lol.

Discussion in 'A3/S3/Sportback (8P Chassis)' started by RPB, May 9, 2012.

  1. RPB
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    RPB Active Member

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    Hi all :)
    For those that have been watching another thread, here is my experience with Shark Stage 1 via STS.
    I have nothing but good comments about the STS unit so am not going to harp on about that here as that has been covered in detail on other posts.
    The car is an S3 SB BE S-Tronic bought new in September 2011.
    Once the car 'settled' down after the map was uploaded by me, I was underwhelmed with the 'feeling' thereafter compared to what i thought it should be, having read a lot on here from various happy folk who cars were like 'night and day' after their remaps. Mine was definitely not like night and day once it was done.
    So, having spoken to Rob at Shark HQ I booked the car in for today for some RR time to have a look at what is going off and then talk about the DSG remap and what I will get from that.
    I have no scanner at all, so I can only type the figures here (boring I know!)
    So, Shark Stage 1 - OEM DSG Map - Peak power to shaft = 288.2 hp at 6471 rpm, 280 ib/ft max. at 3186 rpm.
    What was blatantly obvious from the initial RR run that gave us the info coming from the ECU or DSG was that it was limiting the torque from the DSG to a peak of around 280 ib/ft which tails off to the 6,600 rpm limit before it auto-changes up to the next gear, as per the standard DSG map. So not shabby by any standards, but for some reason this didn't feel that 'good' to me as compared to my Subaru. (The only performance car I have owned, modded, spent thousands on)
    I spoke a lot with Miikko, Rob and Ben about the mapping and then more with Mikko about what the DSG remap could give me overall. i.e. different 'D' rpm gear changes and down-shifts, so it will not sit in 6th at 30mph. This makes slow driving better in auto 'D' mode as you actually can get somewhere when you press the 'loud' pedal instead if it immediately changing down a gear before responding to the loud pedal. Annoying to say the least!
    The rev limit was increased up to 7,325 rpm, as it states on the RR print out. So, it no longer auto-changes up at around 6,600 rpm, but instead will hit the rev-limiter.

    Shark Stage 1 - DSG Remap - Peak power to shaft = 309.1 hp at 5922 rpm, 325 ib/ft max. at 3168 rpm.
    So there is quite a change once the DSG box is told what the torque is going to be and 'allowed' to run at that level. On both RR graphs the peaks were higher than those figures above BUT this is a RR thing and it will not reach that peak on the road. So I have taken what I feel is the 'real' peak figures from the graph and not just the absolute maximums.
    Atm, I have not got a true feedback for you due to us not leaving Shark HQ until 7pm tonight, and the fact is was pi**ing down with rain and with some traffic and being up since 5.30am for work, I was in no fit state for it tbh. That may sound sad, but I ain't got time for speed, etc when its pi**ing down with rain and I am tired.
    The difference in the 'D' mode shifts is noticeable as it sits in a better gear now at 30mph, i.e. 5th not 6th. And the downshifts happen higher up the revs so its not down below 1,300rpm before it down shifts.
    I only had a 9 mile drive home along traffic lined roads so there was no time for 'play' yet. Rest assured I will be posting true post-remap 'feelings' once I have time to drive it and report openly and honestly about my findings.

    In number terms there is a 7% increase in peak power from stage 1, to stage 1 and DSG remap. There is a 14% torque increase as well, so you will have to make up your own mind if the DSG map is worth the money when you look at it in those 'number' terms.
    From OEM though it is a different story if I were to work those figures out.
    What you can see though, is that there is a definitive change in the peak figures once the DSG map is done, and if you could see the graphs, that change of course is across the whole rev range and not just talking in maximum terms.

    I want this to be an honest review, when all said and done, so I can say that speaking with Ben, Rob and Mikko, it was obvious that they wanted to help me get this sorted and in a way that I left happy and not aggrieved with the whole process. They looked after me with the RR time and although I will not discuss that side of the costs here, it was a very good gesture from them to me, and one that I appreciated as well. Suffice to say my car was on the rollers the whole time it was there and had over 6 runs on it as well whilst Mikko tweaked and uploaded the map, did my RR graphs, etc. The only annoying thing about things like this is the upload time to the car! LOL.
    We supped tea, I ate my cob that the misses packed me up, :) and we waited for the outcome!
    #1
  2. mjr901
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    mjr901 S3 Pollution Plus+ Edition

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    So to sum that up....

    Shark Stage 1 =288.2 Bhp Torque = 280 lb/ft

    Shark Stage 1 + DSG Map=309.1 Bhp Torque = 325 lb/ft

    Total Bhp Gain = 20.3 bhp

    Total Torque Gain = 45 lb/ft


    :thumbsup:


    Would seem worth it....

    Thankyou buddy!
    Last edited: May 9, 2012
    #2
  3. ilim
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    ilim Active Member

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    Jensen button......
    #3
  4. Brodster
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    Brodster Shark Performance In Scotland Site Sponsor

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    Was on the phone to Rob when you pitched up yesterday for the RR session. Im glad they could get it all sorted and your happier with the car. Quite impressed with the overall performance over and above the Stage 1 map......goes to show though that the DSG needs it aswell.
    #4
  5. RPB
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    RPB Active Member

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    Am looking out my canteen window hoping it stays dry! Lol. I wanna drive!
    #5
  6. RedDejavu
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    RedDejavu Well-Known Member

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    is there any way to switch it off far a dealer service or they would not be able to tell?
    #6
  7. Ads
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    Maybe its just me.... but I'm a bit surprised you had to remap the engine and the DSG gearbox to get roughly an extra 40-45bhp out of your S3. Isn't that usually what people get by remapping an S3 with say a REVO stage 1 engine remap on its own??

    I'm no expert but it sounds to me the Shark are working the wrong way around. They are producing an engine specific remap without taking into account the different gearboxes, and then advising that you change how your gearbox operates to tie in with their remap.
    Other tuners it seems are working from the opposite angle by producing engine remaps that are specific to your engine and gearbox, negating the need to remap your box as well.

    As I mentioned in the other thread, this was the problem I had originally with my remap, it was the manual version instead of the DSG version. But once the DSG version of the engine remap was loaded everything was fine.
    #7
  8. mjr901
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    mjr901 S3 Pollution Plus+ Edition

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    I think there are pro's and con's to the way they're working to be honest.

    Yes the maps arent producing the power before the DSG map, but...the mechatronics unit isn't going to go into meltdown. which we all know cost £££££££££

    But with the DSG map you can unleash more power and at least the mechatronics will now know and not be constantly limiting torque and going into meltdown.

    This said, theres plenty of Revo customers(for example) who dont have the DSG map. Yet produce good figures post 300+

    But possibly have a higher chance of mechatronic failure?

    Perhaps they're thinking "safety first"
    #8
  9. nluk100
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    nluk100 Active Member

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    The tuner I used (MRCtuning.com) tells the DSG box that it has a lower torque figure to prevent hitting the gearbox torque limiter.

    I used to hit the limiter on the DSG box on my Ed 30 Golf (stage 2+) and had a map on the gearbox to fix that (Superchips map for engine ECU / E-maps for gearbox).

    My car ran 224ps on a stage 1 map (pre-cat removed).
    #9
  10. Ads
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    Maybe, maybe not. But as you say, there are plenty of REVO'd DSGs with no mechatronic failure. Yet.

    I dunno. Just doesn't seem good practice to quote gains of say 40bhp and only delivery half of that. And then only upon complaint by the customer and having to spend more time and money do they get the originally quoted figures. I think transparency is needed and all info given at point of sale.

    I'm considering upgrading to an S3 DSG later this year and Shark was starting to arrive at the top of my list for remapping. But hearing all of this has put question marks in my head now.
    #10
  11. mjr901
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    mjr901 S3 Pollution Plus+ Edition

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    I see what your thinking, i've heard they're willing to discuss and potentially fix problems.

    The last thing they want is bad publicity, and at the moment (on this forum) its not going well by the looks of it......so i'm sure they want to fix it, rather than lose potential sales.

    But as said, these figures need to be properly looked at and the maps need to be tailored more to the cars.

    I dont think simply plugging it in and say yep, off your go is good enough. It needs rolling roading and close diagnostics to get the map working properly.
    #11
  12. RPB
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    RPB Active Member

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    As posted above, the other maps 'cheat' the DSG into thinking it is getting lower torque than it actually is. This is the 'fix' that they all have to do on the DSG cars. So, the Shark engine map does not contain this code. If people are happy for this fix then it can be done the same as the others do it no problems. I took the plunge and went with the full DSG map. I also wanted the 'D' tweaks that it gave me and the increased rev limit. I would sooner the gearbox and clutch know what torque 'to expect'. I am no expert. I do not know DSG internals. I am not an ecu speciialist. We had a long chat about all of it and how Shark proceed with DSG cars in future we shall see. The graphs I have show a clear improvement even before the DSG map. It is whether you want the full DSG map with 'extras' or the ecu 'fix' that cheats the DSG into thinking it has less torque than it really has.
    #12
  13. RedDejavu
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    RedDejavu Well-Known Member

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    Yes but spending 450 on a map then another 400 for a dsg software is a bit of rip off.
    #13
  14. Ads
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    Basically I want somewhere near to 100% of the benefit of what I'm being sold, not 50% of it, and then the other 50% when I realise something is missing and have to pay more to get the rest.

    I wonder how many people, if presented with all of the facts, would have still gone for the remap if they knew they'd have to map their gearbox too to get the full benefit?

    Its really about receiving all of facts and then making a decision, rather than getting "tricked" into buying things.
    #14
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  15. RedDejavu
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    RedDejavu Well-Known Member

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    harsh but pure facts :]
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  16. Ads
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    Sometimes you've got to be cruel to be kind mate. ;)
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  17. RPB
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    RPB Active Member

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    I can see what you are saying and totally agree with some of it! Would I have gone through with the STS remap had I have known that a DSG would follow and be required? No I would not at the beginning done that as that was not even a consideration for me.
    Once it had been on the RR it was doing more than I 'felt' it was before the DSG map, so that kinds threw me out a little bit.
    I do disagree that I was tricked into the DSG though. I had to choose that option yesterday.
    I wanted the STS so I could also see and read / delete basic fault codes as well apart from the fact I could sit on my lazy ass at home and upload the map! LOL.
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  18. RPB
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    RPB Active Member

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    Those figures are someway off the truth. TBH, thats to be expected on a forum! LOL. Truth is always so far away sometimes.
    I paid the same overall as a Revo stage 1 map and I have both the map and DSG done now. That is a fact, not a guess, not conjecture, pure fact. Within my price I have had RR time, one-to-one time spent on my car, so I think that is pretty damn good really when compared to the other options I have seen.
    Revo have not done any offers since I have been looking so there was never a discount option with Revo. Shark however, via a new dealer (GNJ) who was doing discounts on the map, so that and the positive feedback on here swung me to Shark who are 9 miles away.
    As far as I know, and please correct me if I am wrong, Revo Stage 1 map alone is £499. For me to have both ECU and DSG and RR time for the same price I think is good.
    #18
  19. Ads
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    To be honest I wasn't saying you were tricked into getting the DSG remap, I was referring to the stage 1 engine remap purchase.... by being sold it on the grounds that you'd see approx. a 40bhp or whatever increase, when in reality it was half of that, resulting in a hardly noticeable improvement over stock performance.

    It's worked out well for you though, because you had to get the DSG mapped as well to see your full power increase, and as a result ended up with a DSG box performing how you would like it to perform. But for the next man he might already be happy with how the DSG performs in its OEM/stock form and is therefore faced with a decision between half the power increase he was expecting from the Shark remap or receiving the full increase by changing the way his DSG behaves and possibly not liking it.
    #19
  20. RPB
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    RPB Active Member

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    Ahha! I see! Yes I get what you are saying. I agree that a lot of people will not want the DSG map and will feel that the ECU map should 'do its job' from the get go. I actually think it should do its job from the start too!
    I had a chat along those lines with Shark and we debated all of it tbh. With the other tuners using that ECU tweak to 'cheat' the DSG then they will all work from the start. With the Shark map just being a pure engine ECU map, you do end up with some torque, etc loss due to the DSG doing its job and trimming it to its 'safe' limit. Its now unto Ben to decide if they include that tweak with their DSG maps, or advertise it and let you choose, etc. Only time will tell how they see it best to proceed really. But I know I spent money with them, I understand that, I do feel they did give a damn about making sure I went away happy and Mikko spent a lot of time adjusting the map until it was perfect. It really is like Ben says though, you cannot give someone top or peak performance in an STS unit as compared to having a car on the RR and seeing that car, engine, mods, etc and mapping to that.
    this is what I prefer the Subaru EcuTek 'scene'. I was getting purely bespoke mapping for my car only with real on road tweaks, adjustments, uploading, driving, testing, etc and for less money than it costs us for a Revo stage 1 map!
    Suffice to say Bob Rawle, If only you did Audi's! LOL. What a damn mapping guru that man is, awesome, he really is. Mapping 'live' on the road is an experience is itself!
    Last edited: May 10, 2012
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  21. Ads
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    At the end of the day mate you're happy with what you've ended up with and for the price you've paid it sounds like a good deal.

    It's good this has come to light though so other's can make an fully informed decision when deciding whether Shark is for them or not. It's helped me.

    Enjoy your "new" car again! :icon_thumright:
    #21
  22. 3.2 Ju
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    3.2 Ju Well-Known Member

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    So just to be clear, the original map wasn't tweaked to increase the power and then the dsg map added after?
    I was always under the impression that the dsg box was a stronger setup anyway and that's why manual S3's on stage 2 often results in clutch issues!
    At the end of the day though you've now got to where you wanted to be plus you have the dsg software so its a result:thumbup:
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  23. Ads
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    Also, its not my understanding that the DSG box was being tricked by fooling it into thinking there is less torque than there is. The guy at Superchips explained to me that for DSG equipped cars they adjust the engine's power delivery to work in sync with the DSG's shift points, delivering torque/power in the correct places in the rev range.
    #23
  24. Ads
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    :sadlike: You need to be... well, an automotive engineer to get your head around all of this!

    I preferred it in the days when a couple of go-faster stripes stuck on the side of your car guaranteed you an extra 100bhp at least, and the only thing you had to worry about was them going on wonky.
    #24
  25. Gandy
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    Gandy Member

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    Does anyone have any experiences they can share on the Shark map for 2011 S3 manual? I'm guessing no need to mess with the gearbox...... but what gains are people seeing and how was/is the experience? I am looking to stage 1 mine.

    Apologies for partial thread hijack

    Andy
    #25
  26. PaulAr
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    PaulAr S3 (8P)

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    Juicy Jen/ABYSS have SHARK on their manual MY12 S3 and seem very happy with the results.

    To be fair, I understand the current challenges and misunderstanding with the Stage 1 SHARK software are specific to the DSG cars.

    There might be an iminent `fix` for that however........watch this space.
    #26
  27. RPB
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    RPB Active Member

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    Ahhh, go faster stripes................Me at 17, a White, sorry, Beige Datsun Sunny, me at my mum's sitting outside putting on Red stripes! Wicked! It flew after that! No gearbox problems, no lag, but boy did it have one mother f**ker lag problem! HAHAHAHA.

    S3 graph is here :- I forgot I have an iPhone, lol ffs.
    Untitled | Flickr - Photo Sharing!
    #27
  28. Gandy
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    Thanks. Is there some kind of forum discount over the shark website price? Bluefin have 20% off at the moment which is quite tempting...

    Andy
    #28
  29. PaulAr
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    PaulAr S3 (8P)

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    Try N8 or GNJ on here, they had some intro discounts running.

    Do some reading on Bluefin before commiting though, there have been threads on here where the gains have been `marginal` .
    REVO is a dead cert, I had it on a 2007 S3 and it was brilliant, but it is very pricey and could kill your clutch and DMF inside 10K miles.

    Good luck
    Paul
    #29
  30. andywaddy
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    I've got to admit, I'm not so sure that I would have gone down the Shark route if I knew I'd have to shell out even more to get the maximum stated gains from a Stage 1 map! I am left feeling somewhat 'peeved' for want of a better word, that I now have to go out and spend more money to get the figures that I thought were originally built into the total price! Disappointed to say the least.
    #30
  31. Juicy Jen
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    Juicy Jen <span style="color: orange">Jen – Juicy Detailin Site Sponsor

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    Definitely feel like getting mine on the RR now, see what she is putting out.

    I've had Bluefin on my last S3 it was a 58 plate and the Shark map is definitely better..........

    (plus my little box of tricks Pedal Box from Diesel Tuning UK ) :eyebrows:
    #31
  32. Ads
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    A goodwill free DSG remap is the order of the day, me thinks. :yes:
    #32
  33. Gandy
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    Gandy Member

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    Thanks for that.

    Green S3 looks awesome BTW, makes me think that I should have got something less stealth.
    #33
  34. Juicy Jen
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    #34
  35. PaulAr
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    PaulAr S3 (8P)

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    Agree, but the DSG map is not DIY switchable like the ECU map so you still have the issues associated with dealer visits.
    And if you live Ooop North then its at least a tank of juice and a day out of your schedule.

    So even a FREE map might not be the fix for some. Certainly I am not interested in a DSG map FOC or otherwise.

    To be fair, SHARK seem to be on the case and may be about to release a map that delivers all of the gains independant of a DSG map. This uses uses the same coding philosophy that the other big tuners such as REVO, APR who offer full fat Stage 1 ECU maps without a DSG map.

    The moral here is, do your homework.

    Then do it again.
    #35
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  36. Ads
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    All very fair points. :yes:

    So for those who have already purchase a remap and are not happy AND do not want a free DSG remap.... a goodwill 50% refund to soften the blow of only receiving 50% of the power advertised. Although this means they would've still paid half price for something they don't notice, so maybe better would be..........

    ........a 100% discount on this new and 'improved' remap that Shark are maybe about to release.

    It's only fair.
    #36
  37. RPB
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    RPB Active Member

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    I think and only imho the maps were probably fine until the DSG's came along. There is obviously a DSG limitation that others have found a work-around so that you get the desired results. Lets face it folks, we are never going to know the full and proper truth unless our cars and the tuners maps were tested and compared, checked, etc by a completely independent expert.
    I do agree with others on here that a DSG map should not even be on the table after an ECU map when it was never mentioned nor spoken about when you buy the ECU map. I totally understand you lot not wanting a DSG map. Only time and a decent long drive will tell me if I have made the right decision for the long term. I have not even had chance yet to get out and drive mine for a decent while. Its been a right pain with too much to do this week.
    I do think the marketing of it needs to change for DSG cars. I just need to hope this car is as good as my old one was once modded.
    EDIT: To clarify my 'Truth' thing above............I mean we will never know what possible long term damage could come from the work around, nor from the full DSG map either. Long term tests are the only thing that could show any issues up.
    I mean, what abuse can the DSG boxes take anyway??????
    #37
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  38. PaulAr
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    PaulAr S3 (8P)

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    Bullseye my friend :o.k:
    #38
  39. mjr901
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    mjr901 S3 Pollution Plus+ Edition

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    Completely agree, HOWEVER.

    We've only RR'd one car? Lets test say 2 more? Then bring a proper verdict out. Remember every car varies.

    Im all for discounts, but im also all for fairness too.

    Best of 3. If the figures are proven rubbish, then bring out the pitch forks!
    Last edited: May 11, 2012
    #39
  40. shark_90
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    As Shark are not a direct sponsor on Audi Sport (although some of our dealers are) then it would be unfair for us to discuss this on the open forum and gain unfair exposure.

    Therefore, could I please ask that anyone who wishes to discuss this contacts us at Head Office on 01623 332233 or sales@sharkperformance.co.uk

    I would also like to state that any updates we make are of course offered free of charge to any existing customers with our software. With Shark Performance you buy a service, not a product and we are very happy to work with individuals to make changes to their personal requirements.

    Thanks

    Ben
    Shark Performance
    Last edited: May 12, 2012
    #40
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