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My not so daily 4.2 Quattro thread

Rich81 Jun 26, 2017

  1. aragorn

    aragorn "Stick a V8 in it!" Staff Member Moderator VCDS Map User

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    The thing that kills these boxes is a lack of maintainance. The oil and filter should be changed regularly, but Audi declared it "sealed for life", and so it never gets done. If you wait until it starts showing symptoms, then its probably too late, so get it serviced now.

    If the oil is very dirty, you might have to change it a few times to properly clean it out, as draining the sump doesnt actually get all of the oil out.
     
  2. Rich81

    Rich81 Member

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    Agreed I am going to get it done at some point soon. I have done one on my auto tdi and rather than the quoted 7 litres I only got out about 3, but didn't drop the sump or do the filter just drained it and refill as per correct process 30 degrees on vagcom etc. Bit of a pain on your drive levelling the car on axle stands but not as bad as I thought it would be.

    I have heard stories about the filter kits coming with the wrong length pickup tube and people having issues following an oil service, so I need to do more research before hand but it is certainly worth doing.

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  3. Rich81

    Rich81 Member

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    Looks like the full procedure here

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  4. aragorn

    aragorn "Stick a V8 in it!" Staff Member Moderator VCDS Map User

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    the other 4 litres of oil ends up stuck inside the torque converter and oil cooler etc. Hence if its really dirty, its probably worth changing it a few times as your only managing to get half out each time!
     
  5. Rich81

    Rich81 Member

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    Finally took the plunge and invested in a headunit adapter to give me bluetooth, SD card, aux in etc through the standard RNS-D headunit.

    I have a connects2 sd and USB adapter in my other a6 two which I've had for years, but this time I wanted one that did bluetooth as well.

    There are a few options but decided to go with the slightly more expensive Yatour unit as it has USB, SD, aux in, bluetooth, and I phone connector. £75 from Amazon.

    My 4.2 had previously had a parrot bluetooth unit fitted, which has it's own speaker and worked for phone calls but was messy having the speaker mounted under the glovebox. So first job was ripping out that install. Extremely fiddly trying to fish the cables out.

    The Yatour comes with removal keys but only 2, the RNS-D need 4. Luckily I had another set anyway. Plugged in the Yatour unit, which replaced the blue CD changer connected to test it and everything worked.

    Removed the glove box and drilled a hole in the side of it, hidden, just big enough for the blue connector so that the unit can live in the glove box and all cables are hidden.

    The Yatour also comes with a mic for the bluetooth unit for calls. Since the Parrot already had one fitted with wiring up the A pillar quite neatly, I left this in as it should work with the Yatour.

    Fitting is easy but the biggest problem was getting the cables out of the way at the back of the RNS-D to enable it to push back fully home this took about 30 minutes of messing around, and eventually got it to push back home. This was nothing to do with the addition of the Yatour unit, just that there's so many factory cables and once they're disturbed they don't seem to fit back right.

    The way these units work is they mimic the CD changer, and will play whatever source is connected. This works really well however the only snag is if there is a SD card inserted it will always play that, so it must be ejected to use aux in. Hence you want it accessible in the glove box.

    First disappointment was the bluetooth sound quality. Absolutely fine for calls but for streaming music not great. The music sounds low bit rate. It's useable but particularly noticeable due to the quality of the Bose factory install. I'm a hi-fi fan so may be being picky, but plug in an aux or SD card and the sound quality is perfect. I would say better than the original CD changer source.

    Next step is to decide on where to run a concealed aux lead or fit an aux socket with a factory fit look somewhere, that will be quick and easy to connect and look neat.

    For now, very happy to have access to all my music and internet radio etc in the car as was getting six of the 6 CDs I had loaded when I bought the car!
    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]

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  6. Rich81

    Rich81 Member

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    Another little update regarding the wheel balance issues I had - I took them to another tyre fitter and explained the issue. He let me watch the balancing and said the alloys themselves look perfect so it may be a tyre issue. The good news is that after he balanced the front two, the vibration was significantly improved. Moral of the story, not all tyre fitters are equal!
    Still some vibration from the back so I will be taking it back to him to get the rears done as well.

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  7. QuattroCalum

    QuattroCalum Well-Known Member quattro Audi A4 Team Avus Silver saloon Manual

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  8. Rich81

    Rich81 Member

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  9. Samuel c5 Q

    Samuel c5 Q Active Member Silver Supporter

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    My parrot system went through the head unit to the car speakers. Maybe there are different types.
     
  10. Rich81

    Rich81 Member

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    I think it's because the Parrot connects in series to the standard speaker cable loom, which isn't there on the Bose factory install as the speakers are driven from an amp at the back. It was a pretty horrible install with a bulky plastic speaker hanging down on the passenger footwell...

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  11. Samuel c5 Q

    Samuel c5 Q Active Member Silver Supporter

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    I see. Mine just had the Audi concert radio. I'm going to go the busman's route and get one of those cd to tape convertor leads to input the ipod.
     
  12. AndyV8

    AndyV8 New Member

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    Re the Bluetooth. I've just fitted a connects 2 Bluetooth unit with aux in to my A6 4.2 2001. It was £87 and the sound quality is crystal clear on streaming and calls. The other option which I had in my vRS is an xcarlink. It is the same but allows you to keep the cd changer as well but is more expensive.
     
  13. Rich81

    Rich81 Member

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    I have had good experience with a connects2 unit in my other A6 over the last 4 years although it's not a Bluetooth one.

    In defence of the Yatour I have noticed that the sound quality on Bluetooth is ok since I changed my phone last week. I think for some reason my old phone was connecting at a lower bitrate. I still feel direct aux connection sounds best but have been using Bluetooth lately and happy with it.

    Glad I stuck with the RNS-D as I was considering a Chinese android head unit but I prefer staying OEM.

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  14. Rich81

    Rich81 Member

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    Interesting video regarding whether to do a fluid change or not on your auto box.

    My initial anxiety about the box has increased as I have experienced a jolt from 1st to 2nd gear today. I have read that this can be an early sign of 5hp24 failure. Therefore I am going to do a fluid change or at least check the level this week. I was considering a full filter change but I will see what the condition of the oil is like first as from what I can gather if it is looking burnt then there's no point and changing fluid will just accelerate the inevitable!

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  15. Rich81

    Rich81 Member

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    Some very nice ZF HP24 tear down videos here. This guy makes it look so easy...

     
  16. Bratcop

    Bratcop New Member

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    I pulled off a complete rebuild of my 5hp24a in my garage without special tools. It can be done. Oh, and I'm not a professional mechanic, but have rebuilt one manual and three automatic transmissions. Just saying it can be a diy project. I've got pics, manuals, advice, key me know if you need anything if got decide to do it

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  17. Rich81

    Rich81 Member

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    I am currently thinking to obtain a cheap second hand unit and start a rebuild on one soon. The reason I want to do it this way is that I have a single garage, probably just big enough to get a box in and out but no space to work on it once it's out. Also I would like to take my time e.g an hour a night to do it. So I am thinking rebuild a box partly for a fun project and then it's sitting there ready to go. This is dependant on if I can get a box fairly cheap.

    I am particularly interested in if I can use a HP24 from a bmw/jag and then swap the transfer box from my HP24a over when it comes off, as I have seen a lot of HP24 going cheap but no Audi HP24a units.

    Respect for doing the rebuild at home this has inspired me to tackle this job myself.

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  18. Bratcop

    Bratcop New Member

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    I'm not sure on hp24 vs 24a, isn't the a good all wheel drive?

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  19. Rich81

    Rich81 Member

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    Correct the 24a is the all wheel drive box and I was wondering if it would just be a case of swapping the transfer box over and possibly the bell housing as well. I will do some research but I have seen a HP24 box for £90 which could be fun just to tear down for practice.

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  20. Bratcop

    Bratcop New Member

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    Bell housing and case is totally different I think. Bellhousing doesn't come off, either. The 24a has the front drive shaft in the case and houses the front differential as well. The gears and seals internally will be same I think but cases are not same afaik

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  21. Hairless wonder

    Hairless wonder New Member

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    I take it the bell housing on a box from the Range Rover with the bmw v8 is not compatible, seen loads on eBay.
     
  22. Hairless wonder

    Hairless wonder New Member

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    I would be very interested in this if you go ahead, I live just down the road. I have a damaged 5hp24 on my s6....
    I don't have any space to work on it myself but have tools and an appetite to learn.
     
  23. Rich81

    Rich81 Member

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    I'm certainly up for doing it. One thing I'm sure of I wouldn't scrap the car on account of a gearbox as the rest of the car is too good condition, I like a challenge and I really like this car. Over the next few days I am going to get it up on stands and to check the fluid and possibly a fluid change as well. Will post pics.

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  24. Rich81

    Rich81 Member

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    Last night I got the car up on stands in the garage to look at the gearbox fluid level. Part of the objective was to decide if I felt I could tackle removing the gearbox myself if it comes to it. It has to be in the garage because 1. I have to work on it in short bursts over a long time and want to be able to close the door and walk away and 2. Winter is on the way - I have a full plasterboard roof in the garage so it's easy to keep warm! 3. I just don't enjoy working on cars outside anymore. I like the privacy of the garage, doesn't disturb the neighbors and I can listen to music etc while I work. It's decent size single garage but the A6 is a big car and it's fairly tight. I have done plenty of work in there without problem on this car, but gearbox pull on a car like this is going to push the limits of available space.

    Enough space to work on each side, but tight:
    garage 1.JPG
    garage 2.JPG

    Not much space left at the front. Plenty to work on the engine but certainly the gearbox would have to comes out the side:
    garage 3.JPG

    The other option would be go in backwards, allowing the door to opened to create more space at the front. Or slide the box out the rear. Going in backwards would allow a crane to go in easier, which may well be needed.

    Before lifting the car got the spirit level out on a few points so that I could ensure the car was still level when lifted, which is essential for the fluid level check:
    spirit level.JPG

    Originally the car had a leak at the transfer box output seal so it had been covered in oil. That had all gone but I could see what appears to be a very small leak of ATF where the box joins the engine:

    possible atf leak.JPG
    Therefore, it may well be that the fluid level is not correct, even more important to check it.

    I think I found the fill plug which is hidden behind this lip as in the picture:
    fill plug location.JPG
    That's a really awkward place to get to, especially because you have to watch for a steady drip of oil to know when the level is correct. With it in this location, it's almost impossible to see, so I wasn't sure if I had the right plug. When I did a fluid change on the HP19 box in my other A6 tdi, it was much easier as it's all done through the drain plug.

    Looking at the feasibility of pulling the box myself, it certainly looks like a serious challenge. Exhaust would have to be split as clearance is minimal. I do not have the standard exhaust system so I'm not sure if all cars are like this:

    exhaust clearance.JPG
    exhaust clearance 2.JPG

    One of the worst bits would no doubt be getting the downpipes disconnected from the headers, as the bolts do not look in good condition and may well need cutting off, and almost totally inaccessible on one side:
    downpipe bolts.JPG

    The good news is that it looks as though removing the subframe completely would give a lot of access and really open the area up, so I guess that's essential for removing the box.

    I can see various connectors and shifter cable, but otherwise it looks like a case of:

    1. Remove Subframe (not sure best method)
    2. Remove exhaust downpipes/mid section
    3. Disconnect everything on the box
    4. Unbolt driveshafts and prop shaft, secure out the way
    5. Unbolt the box, which will need to move back slightly and then down. To do this I would be looking at purchasing a floor transmission jack on rollers - at 140KG it's just to heavy for messing around with. I don't know if a crane from above to give some support is essential or not.

    I also realised that - I would need to invest in a better jack - to get plenty of height, and doing this job on 4 axle stands would be very hazardous! I would probably look at stands at the front and raiser blocks for the rear wheels combined with secondary axle stands. Wiggling a 140KG box around on 4 stands on a 2 ton car on your own is not a great idea.

    So feasible? Probably, just.

    Unfortunately I ran out of time to actually do the fluid change on the box so may look at this tonight or tomorrow...
     
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  25. QuattroCalum

    QuattroCalum Well-Known Member quattro Audi A4 Team Avus Silver saloon Manual

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    Having removed and replaced my gearbox twice this year (don't ask) I'd recommend hiring an engine crane and pulling engine and box complete. Obviously you'd need the car outside the garage for that. Wrestling a box in and out yourself is do able but I don't think I'd do it again. The worst part is trying to align the gearbox shaft and crankshaft, you only have two hands trying to manouvre things into place.
    If you decide to remove the gearbox and drop the subframe, you would need an engine cradle as well, the engine hangs from this frame that rests where the front wings bolt on.
     
  26. Bratcop

    Bratcop New Member

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    If you are looking at an hp24a box, that isn't the trans fill plug...

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  27. Bratcop

    Bratcop New Member

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    Your fill plug is through the big hole in the trans oil pan. U need to have it up to temp, running, then remove plug. Fill through same hole....

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  28. Bratcop

    Bratcop New Member

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    Also engine needs to be supported when trans removed... With engine hoist out with cross bar between front struts...

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  29. Bratcop

    Bratcop New Member

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    Exhaust must come off at least to the clamps above drive shaft, both front axles off. Fwiw, I wouldn't attempt it in a space that small. U need room to maneuver a jack along the side and a cherry picker up front. Tranny must come out the side, unless car is 3 feet in the air. I did mine on jack stands, but I have a lot more room. It never moved around while I was under it, but I was aware of the peril while I was under there. [​IMG][​IMG]

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  30. Rich81

    Rich81 Member

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    Lol twice in one year sounds fun. Easier the second time though I bet?
    I have done gearboxes in situ before and agree it is a royal pain in the ass lining them up, and that's just on VW golfs. Have never done one of this size and weight though with such limited space!




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  31. QuattroCalum

    QuattroCalum Well-Known Member quattro Audi A4 Team Avus Silver saloon Manual

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    Funnily enough yeah , easier second time round but isn't everything like that ? I bought a single mass flywheel conversion, long story short, it was c###. If you can get the car up nice and high then I'd say just remove the gearbox. Once you remove the gearbox support brace you should have more room to remove the downpipes.


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  32. Rich81

    Rich81 Member

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    Being one of the few that have done this job without a lift, I certainly value your input! I really have made my mind up not to attempt this outdoors, so that would rule out a home box change. I think Labour would approx £800 to fit a box at a garage which I still wouldn't write the car off for however I would need to be getting a good box done cheaply, and do have space amd timd for a rebuild. I would just need a gearbox to work with...

    I originally bought this car cheaply with the intention that if anything major broke I would break it for parts. However now I really like the car so my attitude has changed. It works for us as my wife only drives auto and the insurance on this is cheap compared to most other high bhp cars.




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  33. Bratcop

    Bratcop New Member

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    Too bad you're not in the states, I just saw an c5 a6 v8 with bad trans for sale for $300.

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  34. Rich81

    Rich81 Member

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    Thanks, I had read guides for the HP24 which shows the fill plug on the side. I guess the HP24a is more different than I had assumed.

    I can see it's as you've said from this image I just googled. Since its all from the bottom of the pan that's going to make this a lot easier.

    [​IMG]

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  35. Samuel c5 Q

    Samuel c5 Q Active Member Silver Supporter

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    A manual bag slotted in would be the cheapest option.
     
  36. Rich81

    Rich81 Member

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    Got the first drain and level check done tonight. Followed procedure for level check before draining anything and appeared slightly low. Drained out most of the sump and it came out pretty dark, only slightly burnt/well-used kind of smell but not too bad and no metallic particles. Fingers crossed I've got there early enough. See pic where I drew up some old oil into the pipe to compare discoloration against new fluid.

    Got about 3.5 litres back in until level was correct. Thats from a total of 10 litres in the box. Using the oil fill gun I have one tip I found was to kink the pipe slightly then feed it in to ensure all oil going in, as I had some dribbling back and wasn't sure at first if it was at level. However after getting the fill pipe right in it delivered fine and it's obvious when you reach level as it suddenly overflows from the drain plug orifice, then you run it until just a trickle and refit plug.

    I started at 33 degrees and finished at 40, which was about 15 min.

    I know I haven't pulled the sump and done the filter, but this was mostly about level checking and seeing how bad the oil was - if metallic bits came out I wouldn't waste money on a filter! Now I can look at a filter and more new fluid to come.

    Doing the job on the floor you have to watch the exhaust catching your arm, they're hot. Didn't have that problem on my Tdi HP19 oil change.

    This box is on 167k and I hope to prolong it's life if only for another 10k. Will take it out tomorrow and hopefully this hasn't introduced any problems!!

    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]

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    Last edited: Aug 25, 2017
  37. Hairless wonder

    Hairless wonder New Member

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    If you need a hand just gimme a shout..... If I'm not nailing the overtime I can come over to help. Was thinking of flushing mine to see if it changes anything.
     
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  38. Rich81

    Rich81 Member

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    Cheers! May be worth a try on the oil flush at least you see what condition the stuff is that comes out. Only problem is the ATF isn't that cheap that's gotta go back in so potentially money down the drain if it doesn't fix it... is your car driveable? I know some box faults cause them to go into limp mode and lock to a single gear, but are still driveable, whereas other faults can leave you with no drive at all and a stranded car.

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  39. Hairless wonder

    Hairless wonder New Member

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    I have reverse and 2nd gear..... Have to move shifter down to 2 as nothing happens when I put it in D. Booking it in for an mot sometime in September so I can decide whether or not it's a viable project. Bought it cheap so have a bit of wiggle room. There's a rebuilt box by Mackie transmissions for sale on eBay that's tempting me but can't afford the 1300 at the moment.
     
  40. Rich81

    Rich81 Member

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    Went away for the week last week and decided to put some miles on the V8, test the gearbox out a bit more and see what see is like on fuel on long journeys, and got 500 miles in last week all together.

    Managed about 380 miles on a full tank of super unleaded (£85). This was 300 miles of conservative motorway driving with cruise control locked at 70mph, with a the rest commuting locally when we arrived. Car was indicating 27 mpg which was probably about right.

    Car ran very well apart from still occasionally a few gearbox issues from 1st to 2nd gear. It doesn't slip, where the revs flare up, which had happened twice to me before the recent oil flush, but it does feel like it's holding back during the change of gear as though it's struggling to get in gear. This happened 5 or 6 times under normal driving acceleration. All other gears find under full throttle change and generally the box feels smoother following the fluid change.

    So today I've ordered a new filter, gearbox sump gasket and 9 litres of ATF to do the filter change. From what I have read the filters can crack or become blocked resulting in bad oil pressure. Whilst looking on Jag and land rover and BMW forums there are many posts where people have done a filter and oil change only to create a problem, and lead some to say not worth it/high risk, I have also found people that have had similar issues which have been fixed after a filter change therefore I feel it's worth doing. Hopefully parts will arrive this week and I will get this done over the weekend.
     
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