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My minor modding thread

Discussion in 'A3/S3 Forum (8L Chassis)' started by <tuffty/>, Jul 29, 2009.

  1. jojo

    jojo Looking for Boost!
    Staff Member Moderator quattro Audi S3

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    OK, can't see the LCR top mounts making that much of a difference, just got a set of standard ones, and they are a lot smaller than I had imagined! lol After looking at the pic below. Infact, the new ones I got from ECP looks like the LCR one pictured on the right!

    [​IMG]
     
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  3. <tuffty/>

    <tuffty/> Badger 5 Edition...Its all about the flow...
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    Need to remember bud that the one on the left is my tired old one... not seen a std one so can't comment but... the front feels much tighter than before... how much of that is due to them just being newer vs stiffer I can't say but they do improve the way the car feels fo sho...

    Flip side is the price... nearly 30 quid each IIRC which is not surprising as they are a dealer only part... normal top mounts can be sourced much cheaper... if you have polybushed everything then its worth doing IMO...

    <tuffty/>
     
  4. <tuffty/>

    <tuffty/> Badger 5 Edition...Its all about the flow...
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    Had a chance to log the car last night.... added in a few more degrees timing and left boost at 22/23psi...

    [​IMG]

    Think thats about as much timing as I would like to see but will see what Bill says... IAT's are pretty good... ambient at the time was 18 deg IIRC... long term fuel trim is pulling 8% fuel at the time so will check that on the dyno and get the map tweaked to include the extra timing and get some comparison graphs to see where we are...

    <tuffty/>
     
  5. StaceyS3

    StaceyS3 Well-Known Member

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    IAT's are looking very reasonable, presume you have saturated the MAF at 292?
    Have rigged up my boost gauge to the N75 feed but mine comes off the compressor housing can't imagine that this will make any difference? And was contemplating fitting a MBC in parallel as is spiking at 1.75 then holds 1.5 - 1.6 what would you reconmend? the forge unos? think that is what you are running cant remember now :uhm:
    looking forward to seeing your results on the rollers cheers
     
  6. <tuffty/>

    <tuffty/> Badger 5 Edition...Its all about the flow...
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    MAF is pretty much maxed out yeah... I have heard that its a VCDS thing but I have seen over 300gs on some of the other cars that have been through Bill's workshop so not convinced on that... contrary to popular belief, not all sensors are the same and have the same scaling/response curve...

    Putting an MBC in parallel will give you control over the boost and allow you to run it lower until you can find a happy medium... wprth logging or getting onto a dyno to test for sure... hooking up to the comp housing is fine... you just need to know the pressure diff between the turbo and the manifold to see whats going on...

    I am using an Forge UNOS, brilliant bit of kit :)

    <tuffty/>
     
  7. StaceyS3

    StaceyS3 Well-Known Member

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    On the home from work this morning was only hitting 1.4-1.5 bar off of the comp housing dont think that the car was down on boost as always been consistantly hitting the same levels when it was hooked up to the DV feed and certinally didn't feel down on boost. :think:

    But have seen roughly around 5 degrees lower IAT's after removing the seal at the bulkhead/scuttle panel (think i got the idea from welly) but my VCDS has just arrived this morning so will have a play with that as have only been using my liquid so far, so will wait and see what i find?
     
  8. LeeT

    LeeT Member

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    What a great thread, just read the whole thing start to finish. Gives me plenty of inspiration and ideas. Keep up the good work
     
  9. <tuffty/>

    <tuffty/> Badger 5 Edition...Its all about the flow...
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    Bill has a Leon race car in at the moment having custom exhaust, DP, FMIC pipework and mapping done and is going to be running stock management and a MAF... as I have mentioned this once or twice before but thought I would put a few pics up showing some of the differences...

    Here are a few lined up...
    [​IMG]

    From left to right we have MAF housings for the A3, S3, S4 and RS4... incidently the RS6 use two S3 sized MAF housings

    S3 vs RS4
    [​IMG]

    A3 vs RS4
    [​IMG]

    S4 vs RS4
    [​IMG]

    Internal diameters:
    A3 = 60mm
    S3 = 69mm
    S4 = 76mm
    RS4 = 82mm

    (I will double check these later as I don't have the bit of paper I wrote them down on handy...DOH!)

    The MAF sensors are different part numbers and will have different characteristics (not all sensors are the same despite all being 0-5v outputs)

    Will see how the mapping goes on the Leon (although it a GT35 spec turbo), biggest issue is likely to be idle as its a small capacity engine so not drawing much air speed on idle meaning its likely to be a little erratic...

    <tuffty/>
     
  10. Alex C

    Alex C Well-Known Member
    VCDS Map User Audi S3

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    out of interest how do you scale between them, is it linear based on surfce area or is it something you can only do whilst mapping and tweaking?
     
  11. <tuffty/>

    <tuffty/> Badger 5 Edition...Its all about the flow...
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    Its in the mapping but don't know what the procedure is... you still use the original sensor though rather than the one for the RS4 for example...

    <tuffty/>
     
  12. Rosso TT

    Rosso TT Member

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    Hi tuffty, interesting read.
    I'm planning to fit a bosch 044 in line pump and i had a look at your set up, i'm going to machine some fitting myself.
    Did you get rid of the one way valve on the in line pump and rely only on the in tank pump one?
     
  13. Westy

    Westy Double Dark Side! Diesel & 8P

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    Are all the sensors interchangeable or do you require any adapters? Is there any gain to be had by using a large MAF or TB on a K04 in your opinion?
     
  14. <tuffty/>

    <tuffty/> Badger 5 Edition...Its all about the flow...
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    Relying on the intank one mate... I used fittings that allowed me to connect it straight into the oem lines...

    The sensors are physically interchangable (mostly, there are a couple of rougue exceptions with the screw fitting) but response curves are different... I am not sure on what effect this has tbh, I will ask Bill later as I would be interested to find out...

    Considering over 400bhp is acheivable on std MAF tube and TB sizing then the gains on a K04 turbo would be negligible I suspect... on mine again not sure there would be a lot in it without supporting mods but I hope to see once my ampping on the current hardware is sorted and I will try the R32 TB as a bolt on to see what gains if any it gives... would be more up the top end for sure...

    <tuffty/>
     
  15. aragorn

    aragorn "Stick a V8 in it!"
    Staff Member Moderator VCDS Map User

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    Its more or less linear against the area change for a given sensor voltage.

    S3 to RS4 on the above numbers is just under 40% increase in area, so you'd expect ~40% more airflow with the larger housing to make the sensor read a particular voltage. Then you'd need to fine tune to get it spot on.
     
    #1294 aragorn, Jun 21, 2011
    Last edited: Jun 21, 2011
  16. <tuffty/>

    <tuffty/> Badger 5 Edition...Its all about the flow...
    Staff Member Moderator Audi S3

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    Did some more road logging this evening...

    [​IMG]

    Pulled a single 6 right towards the end but to be fair it was seeing over 23 degrees of timing advance at a tad over 22psi with an empty tank of 2 week old v-power so not all bad...

    N75 duty cycle is quite lethargic which accounts for the more 'progressive' feel of the power coming in and maybe timing advance could be moved up a bit to help spool....

    This is still the first ever map I had after I finished fitting the GT30 on the first time, its not too far out tbh... I have played with Unisettings to add timing, reduce load (as the boost was far too high) and pull some fuel out as the long term trims where quite high..

    [​IMG]

    Fuel trims still a little high so more fuel may need to be taken out...
    [​IMG]

    IAT's were good, ambient was about 17deg at the time and got no more than 32 deg on the log with the IAT's recovering to low 20's... happy enough seeing as I was only doing short runs locally on short roads and just going 20mphish in between runs so not really getting much air through to help...

    Only one fault code (16825 - EVAP Emission Control Sys: Incorrect Flow) and the same one I have been having since disconnecting the vacuum to the EVAP system so need to get that coded out...

    Doubt I will get a new map before GTI but I may try increasing the load a bit to up the boost and see where I can get it too... 1.6bar would be a nice start point I think but will have to have a play and check the timing (might pull a deg or 2 out)

    <tuffty/>
     
    #1295 <tuffty/>, Jun 21, 2011
    Last edited: Jun 21, 2011
  17. Rosso TT

    Rosso TT Member

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    Hi tuffty, sorry to bother you.
    Today I installed my inline pump and it sounds odd, like it's cavitating? Also i get pressure fluctuation.
    YouTube - &#x202a;Bosch 044&#x202c;&rlm;
    I'm currently running the pump electrically disconnected, will it do any harm to it?
    Cheers.
    Ross.
     
  18. superkarl

    superkarl MAN OF STEEL

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    Your running an inline pump with a ko4 revo stage 2????
     
  19. <tuffty/>

    <tuffty/> Badger 5 Edition...Its all about the flow...
    Staff Member Moderator Audi S3

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    Humm... I would think it will be making the the intank pump work its nuts off as its acting as a blockage.... Can't you just swap it out for a short piece of hose? intank pump (in full working order) should be more than up to the job on a K04 and there is no real need for a 4bar FPR either... 4bar FPR will make the intank work harder for no reason... can't imagine the injectors are maxed out yet...

    <tuffty/>
     
  20. Rosso TT

    Rosso TT Member

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    Yes mate.
    My intank pump is faulty.
     
  21. <tuffty/>

    <tuffty/> Badger 5 Edition...Its all about the flow...
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    Seeing as the intank acts as a lift pump for the inline that might be why you are having the probs... assuming you haven't removed the intank altogether... if the intank is faulty just fitting an inline won't fix the problem...

    <tuffty/>
     
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  23. Rosso TT

    Rosso TT Member

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    Ok, that means i have to buy another fuel pump, this time genuine, as they say good things come in threes.
    On inj on time i get 20.20 ms at 6000 rpm
    I got a formula to calculate inj duty cycle
    pulse in ms
    __________
    12000/rpm
    Is this correct ?
     
  24. <tuffty/>

    <tuffty/> Badger 5 Edition...Its all about the flow...
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    You can check injector on time in VCDS block 002... just over 20ms is pretty much flat out but if your intank pump is playing up and fuel pressure dropping then that can explain high injector ontime for wideband ECU's...

    Still not convinced you need a 4bar FPR... was this fitted for a reason? stage 2 maps will happily run 3bar FPR and be less strain on the intank pump...

    <tuffty/>
     
  25. superkarl

    superkarl MAN OF STEEL

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    It's prob the reason his in tank pump is goosed. It's funny how people see it as an upgrade for performance when people like your self with a BT run a standard one.
     
  26. Rosso TT

    Rosso TT Member

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    Thank for your input guys.
    The 4 bar fpr was suggested by the bloke that installed revo.
    I could see on block 32 in the second field -14%, now i'm running 3 bar fpr and my car is narrowband.
     
  27. <tuffty/>

    <tuffty/> Badger 5 Edition...Its all about the flow...
    Staff Member Moderator Audi S3

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    -14% suggests its pretty much adapting out the increased fuel flow afforded by the 4bar FPR... I think they must have suggested fitting them to give an increased safety margin but seems to be at the expense of the fuel pump eventually giving up the ghost...

    Not really got any personal experience of non wideband ECU's so can't comment with any authority but I would log injector duty cycle to see if you are getting close to maxing them out... as you have a non wideband ECU then you won't have an EGT probe... it maybe that the map is designed to run a bit richer any way to help control EGT's... this is most likely why the ME7.5 ECU S3's/TT's/LCR's etc ended up with an EGT probe as the EGT's can go bonkers once tuned...

    WMI would help keep things in check too...

    <tuffty/>
     
  28. Rosso TT

    Rosso TT Member

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  29. <tuffty/>

    <tuffty/> Badger 5 Edition...Its all about the flow...
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    humm... 217 isn't a block I have heard of before... I know the ECU does calculated EGT's so maybe thats it.... the measured EGT value (block 112) is the one I normally use... will do a comparison next time I am in the S3...

    Will have a scan through those after work...

    <tuffty/>
     
  30. <tuffty/>

    <tuffty/> Badger 5 Edition...Its all about the flow...
    Staff Member Moderator Audi S3

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    Back on topic... :)

    I have been doing a lot of data logging over the past few weeks and I am just waiting on a map revision once everyone concerned has time to fit me in (I am in no real hurry and paying customers come first:o.k:)

    Anyhoo... I have been having a few issues with boost control. I am currently running just N75 having taking the MBC out of parallel and the car is driving very nicely but I am running the ECU on reduced load through Unisettings to curb the boost spikes and random boost control... would appear that as I increase load to get boost much above 1.6bar then it becomes a lottery as to what I get... Saturday afternoon while taking Prawn out for a little run I was hitting 1.5/1.6bar on the outbound trip and 2bar on the inbound trip... the EGT's went higher than I would like and she felt less urgent than before... obviously the really high boost is the reason but some boost control would be nice... :(

    Anyhoo, I have backed off the load again until the revised map is ready and I can get her on the dyno for a more controlled test...

    I do have a feeling though that I am getting to the limit of usable/reliable boost at around 1.6bar with the combo of the small port inlet mani and a T25 flanged hotside... much beyond that boost then flow restrictions kick in and all I get is heat...

    Most of this is speculative until I get the revised map and get her on the dyno so in the mean time I thought I would try something that will at least help and be one less thing hampering potential for performance...

    ...a SEM inlet manifold :thumbsup:

    Bill has one lying about the workshop in the usual 'if I leave this in plain sight of tuffty he cannot resist...' type fashion... ok, he doesn't really do that but its all the justification I normally need lol... so I took it home this evening and set about test fitting to see what work I will need to do to get it to fit how I want it...

    The SEM and S3 inlet manifolds...
    [​IMG]

    ...the SEM has my R32 TB on it of course...
    [​IMG]

    ...bolted onto the engine...
    [​IMG]

    ...injectors and wiring loom sit higher and may need adjustment + wiring extending or re routing to allow me to fit the top cover. The FPR is sticking up the most as you can see here so tilts the cover up a bit... I reckon I can do something with it though...
    [​IMG]

    ...the trim at the front looks as though it will go on too but there is nowhere (currently) to bolt the EGT probe black box and the metal plates bolt holes don't line up with the SEM's mounts for it so I will need to do a little tweaking there too...
    [​IMG]

    ...the charge pipe also needs some work as the SEM moves the TB further forward and straighter than the OEM mani...
    [​IMG]

    So, looking plausible and with a bit of work I reckon I can keep the top cover too...
    [​IMG]

    <tuffty/>
     
  31. Broken Byzan

    Broken Byzan Photographic Moderator
    Staff Member Moderator VCDS Map User Audi A4 quattro

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    NOMMY, Nuff said!!
     
  32. MUSH

    MUSH MUSH Developments Ltd.

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    Quality mod mate, is it here to stay?
     
  33. Dane

    Dane Had an 8L S3, a B5 RS4 now I have a B8 S4

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  34. <tuffty/>

    <tuffty/> Badger 5 Edition...Its all about the flow...
    Staff Member Moderator Audi S3

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    Will see how it goes... looks like I can potentially get a bit of silicon on tight enough to test it on the dyno at least so will try it out when the revised map is done and I have a spare day for dyno + swapping of mani's etc...

    The SEM looks like it will fit well enough for testing at least... if it works out ok then I guess I will have to sell the kids to pay for it LOL....

    There is also WMI to be fitted at some point to... might try and run the tubing for that at least and get the controller wired ready... lots to do and no time as usual, good job I am the patient type ;P

    <tuffty/>
     
  35. MUSH

    MUSH MUSH Developments Ltd.

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    Feel your pain mate, theres never enough hours in the day! Lol
     
  36. dZlboy

    dZlboy New Member

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    <tuffty/> smasher of a thread buddy! im new to the forum, & new to the foour rings stable! all the way from south africa! defo goin to keep lookin @ youre thread!
    enjoy...
     
  37. Dane

    Dane Had an 8L S3, a B5 RS4 now I have a B8 S4

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    Some one else actually read the whole thread! good on ya!
     
  38. Lee Goodall

    Lee Goodall ..got my head together!

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    The car finished yet mate?

    You going to Audis In The Park This Year?
     
  39. <tuffty/>

    <tuffty/> Badger 5 Edition...Its all about the flow...
    Staff Member Moderator Audi S3

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    Its never finished mate ;P

    Back on the dyno this weekend to see where we are with the revised map... I suspect there will be at least one more revision before its where it should be but will see how it goes...

    Yes, I'll be at AITP...

    <tuffty/>
     
  40. Westy

    Westy Double Dark Side! Diesel & 8P

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    You must have a folder full of dyno graphs by now mate! How many dyno runs do you think you've done?
     
  41. <tuffty/>

    <tuffty/> Badger 5 Edition...Its all about the flow...
    Staff Member Moderator Audi S3

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    Not as many as Welly ;P

    I don't have too many tbh... waiting for the big one :D

    <tuffty/>
     
  42. Lee Goodall

    Lee Goodall ..got my head together!

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    Yeah, I don't think mine will ever be finished either, I like to think of it as evolution lol.

    See you at AITP then mate. It'll be good to catch up and have a look at your car.
     

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