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Lump starting...

Discussion in 'A4/A4 cabriolet/S4 forum(B6 chassis)' started by Funkyfin2000, Dec 5, 2010.

  1. deanski
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    deanski wax on, wax off

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    [Jan 6, 2011]
    i'd try the egr clean first. if its stuck open it'll cause problems when cold.
    #41
  2. Funkyfin2000
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    Funkyfin2000 Member

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    [Jan 6, 2011]
    ok mate, you had similiar issues didn't you? Did you sort them out?
    #42
  3. Funkyfin2000
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    Funkyfin2000 Member

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    [Feb 18, 2013]
    So.....my Audi is now in for injectors out, ultrasonic cleaning, new bolts and seals!

    Will know in a week or so if things have improved......will keep you updated as we go!

    Interesting times...i hope I don't need any new injectors :S
    #43
  4. Funkyfin2000
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    Funkyfin2000 Member

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    [Feb 24, 2013]
    So injectors cleaned and back in - new seals - new bolts...

    first cold start this morning... was very lumpy starting at the garage yesterday morning but hoping it takes time for the injectors to settle and bed in :S

    I hope it's not worse

    Will go and try a cold start in a minute.....
    #44
  5. SL11CKK
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    SL11CKK Active Member

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    [Feb 24, 2013]
    My car does the same thing when idle at cold however only for couple of secs and then fine, also it seems to be quite tappety in the beginning few seconds too.

    If you don't mind me asking how much did you pay to get your injectors cleaned.
    #45
  6. stu_m
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    stu_m Well-Known Member VCDS Map User

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    [Feb 24, 2013]
    Mine used to do this until I set my syncro angle to 0°
    #46
  7. scottshere
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    scottshere Member

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    [Feb 24, 2013]
    Do you have to take the timing belt off to do this?
    #47
  8. stu_m
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    stu_m Well-Known Member VCDS Map User

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    [Feb 25, 2013]
    No its really easy to do I will dig out a link for you later
    #48
  9. Funkyfin2000
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    Funkyfin2000 Member

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    [Feb 25, 2013]
    No worries....yeah potteries diesel service did it..... 42.50 per injector including new seals! Plus vat

    200 basically....they send them away back in three days
    #49
  10. Funkyfin2000
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    Funkyfin2000 Member

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    [Feb 25, 2013]
    Would be very interested in this stu!
    #50
  11. stu_m
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    stu_m Well-Known Member VCDS Map User

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    [Feb 25, 2013]
    Its really easy to do you check it with vcds under engine measuring block 4 and look at the last one it should be as close to 0 as possible if not yet adjust it by moving the cam sprocket little then recheck it
    #51
  12. stu_m
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    stu_m Well-Known Member VCDS Map User

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    [Feb 25, 2013]
    #52
  13. Funkyfin2000
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    Funkyfin2000 Member

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    [Feb 25, 2013]
    Just checked my Syncro Angle - 2.8 to 3.3 goes between so its WELL OUT! Going to see if I can adjust it myself over the weekend or such like!

    This is useful:

    Just a small disclaimer to say i cannot be held responsible for any potential damage that might be caused from doing these checks and adjustments to your car. It is very difficult to do damage doing these changes but without the correct equipment and knowledge of what is mentioned anything can happen. Take your time and hopefully you can have a smooth running car just like out of the factory.

    Do this at your own risk.

    Enough of me passing the buck if you mess it up. lol.

    Typical symptoms: Idle gradually gets worse and shakes car which gets worse after roughly 30seconds to 1min after idling.
    Lack of power
    Poor MPG

    These things can also be attributed to a number of different problems which hopefully this guide will help to eliminate. Maybe its worth checking even if you don't have rough idle.
     
    Must have items: Full version of vag com.
     
    Starting with the easiest:

    Check fuel filter has been changed within the last 10,000 miles.

    Check visibly all pipework is secure, no obvious issues, no oil leaks, coolant leaks or any other general issues and service has been maintained.

    Vibration can also be caused by a faulty dual mass flywheel so try and depress the clutch and see if this makes any difference at all. Not a great test but it might help to eliminate or highlight this problem.
     
    Now onto VAG COM/VCDS
     
    Coolant temp check.

    This can also be done using something like a ScanGauge or other OBD2 gauges.
    On Vag Com main screen click "Select Control Module" then "01 Engine". Wait for it to connect to the ECU then press "Meas. Blocks 08". Below group select 001 and press "Go!" this should show engine speed, coolant temp etc.... Take for a drive to get the car up to temperature, you don't have to log it you can just glance across to see the temperature to see what it reaches. You should be seeing a temp of between 87-92 on normal running temperature. To start with mine was showing 79-80, so constantly running in cold start fuelling - increased fuel to help raise coolant temps. If you are seeing low coolant temp figures this is probably a good time to replace the coolant temp sensor and the thermostat in one go.

    IQ and Cam Timing

    With the engine warmed up pull over and let the car idle for a minute with all lights, air con wipers etc... off, no extra load should be on the engine. In measuring blocks enter group 015 and press "Go!". Check the second block across, "Inj Qty. (Actual)" This ideally should be between 3-5. Higher number means leaner, lower number means richer. In my case this figure was around 1.4-1.8 at idle, very rich.

    Also at idle enter group 004 and press "Go!", look at the last block, torsion Value or i think it might be Synchro angle. In spec should be between -3/+3, the closer to 0.0 the better ideally, maybe with a slight advance in timing, 0.5-1.0.

    Write both of these down.

    From what i can see in my tests IQ and also the shudder is tied to the timing shown the last block of group 004. If you have anything other than the spec range of -3/+3 then chance are your cam timing is out which is causing rough idle due to the incorrect timing and extra/less fuel being injected.

    The A4 is very easy to change the timing slightly on as you only have to remove the engine cover and the cambelt cover to get access so it makes doing this procedure very quick.

    For most of the above this is a great guide to follow.
    How to adjust rough idle and camshaft timing on VW and Audi TDI pumpe duse engine

    My car was showing a Synchro angle was between 7.7 and 8.3 advanced. After i loosened the 3 x 13mm nuts I put an 18mm socket onto the centre of the sprocket and actually turned clockwise to get it to 0. The guide doesnt seem to agree with this. Its a trial and error procedure, undo the 3 nuts, move slightly, and i mean slightly, tighten up, jump back in the car and check the synchro angle in block 004 once again. Repeat until you get to 0.

    On my first go i rotated my wrench on the 18mm socket anti clockwise too much following the guide and the car would not start. Went back the other way towards where it was and it started no problems and the angle went down to 6.6 so kept moving clockwise until I reached 0.0. I very much doubt this small change of timing will cause any mechanic problems as its quite a low compression car which will easily run with the timing out a tooth (it wont run great tho but wont smash valves into pistons in my opinion). The movement needed to get down to 0 is very slight so make small movement first to get the angle value down. This is very import and saves a lot of timing going back and for the engine and vag com.

    Now check to see if the IQ has been raised or changed as a result of this timing, again 3-5mg/st is what your aiming for.

    My car now idles perfect, power is now night and day different to what it was and hopefully MPG will improve as a result. I personally think the timing belt is actually out an entire tooth and the adjustment made doing this procedure just compensated for it.
     
    Things to also check.

    Log MAF and boost values for issues. Ideally blocks 003, 011 & 001. MAF values on a 130 should be 850+, you can check against requested. If too low replace MAF. Is duty cycle on 011 is high chance are you have a boost leak or a turbo/n75 problem as the car cannot reach its requested boost.

    Here are some logs i took, 3rd gear, 1500 rpm to high up the rev range.
    PD130 Logs - Help - SEAT Cupra.net - SEAT Forum

    Boost leak test. I pressurised my intercooler system to look for leaks.

    I also replaced all my vacuum hoses as they were fraying and split in places.

    The solenoid to the EGR valve and ASV, part of the N75 vacuum lines can fail. Try blocking off the connection off the top of the EGR valve to see if this helps. You can bypass the entire ASV and EGR system if you want. My car now runs a single 3mm hose with check valve as per OEM setup to the N75 from the vac source at the back of the engine and a vac hose to the actuator. Everything else is left alone and connected electronically. This is a basic EGR delete.

    Hope this helps.

    Phil.
    #53
  14. stu_m
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    stu_m Well-Known Member VCDS Map User

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    [Feb 25, 2013]
    is yours jumping between 2.8 to 3.3 ? it shouldn't jump at all you sometimes get a little movement but it usually settles

    while your in there inspect your tensioners
    #54
  15. Funkyfin2000
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    Funkyfin2000 Member

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    [Feb 25, 2013]
    Not really jumping....it did settle at 2.8 eventually....will do further monitoring as per that copied post above.

    2.8 is high though isn't it!
    #55
  16. stu_m
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    stu_m Well-Known Member VCDS Map User

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    [Feb 25, 2013]
    yes it is high when mine was running rough it was at -3! its not spot on 0 and runs great
    #56
  17. Funkyfin2000
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    Funkyfin2000 Member

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    [Feb 26, 2013]
    Well just checked this morning, injctor 1 and 2 all +2.99 at start until about 1min in and then settle down....same as it was before injector clean!

    Checked syncro angle this morning and now 3.9 to 3.3 between too but didn't let it settle.....
    #57
  18. stu_m
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    stu_m Well-Known Member VCDS Map User

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    [Feb 26, 2013]
    Sounds like to me its your timing then adjust it and see its really easy
    #58
  19. Funkyfin2000
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    Funkyfin2000 Member

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    [Feb 26, 2013]
    So my coolant temp was sitting at 81oC....never went higher...sounds like I need a CTS and thermostat as well!!! Gauge sits at 90 mind but vcds reported 81 only!
    #59
  20. stu_m
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    stu_m Well-Known Member VCDS Map User

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    [Feb 26, 2013]
    was that driving or idling? if idling then take it for a really good drive to warm it up

    the range can go from 80 - 90 without a reading on the needle 80+ is ok ;-)
    #60
  21. Funkyfin2000
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    Funkyfin2000 Member

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    [Feb 26, 2013]
    That was on a 30min drive just had the PC plugged in as I drove about... never went about 81 even on idling. It's in tolerance but I think I will get the thermostat and CTS changed as a matter of course anyway....for the small cost of them....

    will try and get the syncro angle changed at the weekend basically :) And report back! The cambelt cover is at the front so doesn't look very difficult to do. Just whip the cover off and loosen the 3 bolts and then knock the centre bolt slightly..
    #61
  22. stu_m
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    stu_m Well-Known Member VCDS Map User

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    [Feb 26, 2013]
    yeah thats all there is to it then check again with VCDS :)
    #62
  23. Funkyfin2000
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    Funkyfin2000 Member

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    [Feb 28, 2013]
    So sorted out timing, its 0 - 0.6 now...and started this morning, still rough idling once started, not as bad as usual but still chucked out blue diesel smoke out the back! lol!

    I don't know....CTS and Thermostat to change next but doubt that make any difference, I have nothing else to change, tandem pump and injector loom, all done.....have to live with it I think!
    #63
  24. stu_m
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    stu_m Well-Known Member VCDS Map User

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    [Feb 28, 2013]
    you will probably notice a little difference in how it drives now too

    if your car gets to temperature ok I would leave the stat although a dodgy CTS can cause a puff of grey smoke on start up not sure why yours is blue that would suggests burning a little oil on start up
    #64
  25. Funkyfin2000
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    Funkyfin2000 Member

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    [Feb 28, 2013]
    Yeah doesn't burn oil...maybe it's just dark black smoke actually!

    Gonna do CTS and thermo anyway, got them now...will see how it is in morning..

    Does run better now for sure...
    #65
  26. Ian-83
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    Ian-83 Member

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    [Feb 28, 2013]
    Mine is the same as but once the ambient temp is above 4 degrees all seems ok with no poor start issues.
    #66
  27. Funkyfin2000
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    Funkyfin2000 Member

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    [Feb 28, 2013]
    Very odd isn't it....it's like it's a pressure drop issue as only happens overnight generally...weird...and at temps you mention ..I wander what the answer is!
    #67

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