1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

Lump starting...

Discussion in 'A4/A4 cabriolet/S4 forum(B6 chassis)' started by Funkyfin2000, Dec 5, 2010.

  1. Funkyfin2000
    Offline

    Funkyfin2000 Member

    Joined:
    Sep 1, 2005
    Messages:
    485
    Likes Received:
    5
    [Dec 5, 2010]
    Hi ya got my audi 2004 1.9tdi 130bhp avant last week and since having it, first time start has always been really lumpy.....

    I know VAG comming, the only error I have is the engine mount issue, which will get sorted but I doubt that would cause the issues when it starts it struggles a little and then you have to pump the accelerator a bit to get it going...

    Lots of TDI black smoke out the back, once up and running its fine.....

    any ideas? Nothing showing on VAG com...anything I can measure to check?

    Rich
    #1
  2. quattrojames
    Offline

    quattrojames Moderator Staff Member Moderator

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2008
    Messages:
    13,951
    Likes Received:
    499
    [Dec 5, 2010]
    I think most diesels will cough a bit when you fire them in in these temperatures. I'm not too sure on how the fuel timing works on the PD engines, but other than that it's down to glow plugs/injectors or poss. the temperature coolant sensor.
    #2
  3. Funkyfin2000
    Offline

    Funkyfin2000 Member

    Joined:
    Sep 1, 2005
    Messages:
    485
    Likes Received:
    5
    [Dec 6, 2010]
    Thanks Again James.

    Any guides for changing the sensor? whereabouts is it?

    Can I check it with measuring blocks in VAG com to see if functioning correctly?

    It doesn't throw an error in VAG COM.

    Rich
    #3
  4. pj123
    Offline

    pj123 Member

    Joined:
    Oct 5, 2010
    Messages:
    300
    Likes Received:
    10
    [Dec 6, 2010]
    Coolant sensor will throw a code when you scan the engine module. Its easy to change, remove the pie going across the back of the engine into the EGR valve and it is on the back left corner as you look at the engine. Prob not this if you have no code though.

    I changed my battery at the weekend and it has made a massive difference to the first 5 seconds or so of the engine running. Was really lumpy before hand. A good battery should hold 12.6v, mine was down to 12.05v. Could be worth a check...
    #4
  5. quattrojames
    Offline

    quattrojames Moderator Staff Member Moderator

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2008
    Messages:
    13,951
    Likes Received:
    499
    [Dec 6, 2010]
    #5
  6. Funkyfin2000
    Offline

    Funkyfin2000 Member

    Joined:
    Sep 1, 2005
    Messages:
    485
    Likes Received:
    5
    [Dec 7, 2010]
    Good work cheers.
    #6
  7. Funkyfin2000
    Offline

    Funkyfin2000 Member

    Joined:
    Sep 1, 2005
    Messages:
    485
    Likes Received:
    5
    [Dec 10, 2010]
    Anyone have any tips on how to diagnose lumpy issues on Vag Com?
    #7
  8. Funkyfin2000
    Offline

    Funkyfin2000 Member

    Joined:
    Sep 1, 2005
    Messages:
    485
    Likes Received:
    5
    [Dec 11, 2010]
    I can't see any blue on the coolant sensor so i think it might be wise changing it as pre cautionary
    #8
  9. Funkyfin2000
    Offline

    Funkyfin2000 Member

    Joined:
    Sep 1, 2005
    Messages:
    485
    Likes Received:
    5
    [Dec 15, 2010]
    Funny enough the missus was driving today and the engine light came up. Scanned with VAG com and its the coolant temperature sensor! So getting this changed Friday!
    #9
  10. Funkyfin2000
    Offline

    Funkyfin2000 Member

    Joined:
    Sep 1, 2005
    Messages:
    485
    Likes Received:
    5
    [Dec 18, 2010]
    Right then peeps really need some help now...

    Coolant Sensor changed and thought would try starting the car this morning, praying the lumpy starting was sorted.

    Nope the car wouldn't even catch, turns over, but doesn't start, but just turned over once if you see what i mean but then stopped. Tried again and the same.

    Normally a bit of throttle helps it when it starts but i refused and tried again, this time it caught and was incredibly misfiry and lumpy for about 10 seconds, tons of smoke out the rear (blew the snow out the way on the ground!) and then over about 15secs sorts itself out!

    It only gets like this all lumpyness after its been stood over night, never really in the day when used etc.

    Mechanic looked the car over yesterday and couldn't see anything wrong but we did find the alternator pulley needs sorting out, had a weird rattle sound and looks like its seized but doubt that would cause starting issues.

    I also had the battery checked at Halfrauds (i know i know!) but it came back at 75% fine and charging all ok, no battery needed!

    Any further help - Mechanic suggested glow plugs but surely Vag com would throw up an error if they were knacered.

    The only other thing I've read about is the injector loom getting suspect and is it the fuel pump timing? Or is that not applicable to Diesels?

    Any help would be great!

    Rich
    #10
  11. Funkyfin2000
    Offline

    Funkyfin2000 Member

    Joined:
    Sep 1, 2005
    Messages:
    485
    Likes Received:
    5
    [Dec 19, 2010]
    Heres a video of me trying to get it started this afternoon...

    Once it got going it needed plenty of pedal to get it to that point!

    YouTube - MVI 5166
    #11
  12. aragorn
    Offline

    aragorn "Stick a V8 in it!" Staff Member Moderator VCDS Map User

    Joined:
    Jan 30, 2008
    Messages:
    16,173
    Likes Received:
    386
    [Dec 19, 2010]
    Stick a new set of glow plugs in it.

    The ECU cant really tell if they're not working, so wont flag a code.
    #12
  13. Funkyfin2000
    Offline

    Funkyfin2000 Member

    Joined:
    Sep 1, 2005
    Messages:
    485
    Likes Received:
    5
    [Dec 19, 2010]
    You reckon its glow plugs? How much for a set fitted? about £60?
    #13
  14. Funkyfin2000
    Offline

    Funkyfin2000 Member

    Joined:
    Sep 1, 2005
    Messages:
    485
    Likes Received:
    5
    [Dec 20, 2010]
    #14
  15. murran
    Offline

    murran Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 10, 2010
    Messages:
    1,540
    Likes Received:
    37
    [Dec 23, 2010]
    1.9's dont throw up fault codes for open circuit glowplugs. 2.0's do tho i think?
    #15
  16. quattrojames
    Offline

    quattrojames Moderator Staff Member Moderator

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2008
    Messages:
    13,951
    Likes Received:
    499
    [Dec 23, 2010]
    #16
  17. Funkyfin2000
    Offline

    Funkyfin2000 Member

    Joined:
    Sep 1, 2005
    Messages:
    485
    Likes Received:
    5
    [Dec 24, 2010]
    Well the originals were still on the car as stamped up as VW and see no hisotry for changing them

    interesting to know about the no errors in VAG com.

    They looked fairly knacered. New set in and the glow plug light only stays on now for about 1 second and starting was better last night but it had been used in the day.

    The real test is this morning, just warming my babs bottle at the mo, will try later and update you!
    #17
  18. Funkyfin2000
    Offline

    Funkyfin2000 Member

    Joined:
    Sep 1, 2005
    Messages:
    485
    Likes Received:
    5
    [Dec 24, 2010]
    Well Glow plugs changes and it was freezing overnight....this morning started the car and it started without having to turn it over and over.

    But, I still had plenty of smoke and it was misfiring/lumpy for about 10secs again!

    Any suggestions?

    Rich
    #18
  19. Funkyfin2000
    Offline

    Funkyfin2000 Member

    Joined:
    Sep 1, 2005
    Messages:
    485
    Likes Received:
    5
    [Dec 25, 2010]
    Tried again this morning and started first time (so glow plugs have definietly sorted that issue) but it still misfired all over the place and the car wobbles something chronic (although I do have the left engine mount (electric) down at the moment so getting that changed next week.

    But the revs jump all over the place and its misfiring for a good 15secs or so. Smoke pours out the back.

    I think injector cleaner is next on the cards!

    Any one know about the injector loom issue?
    #19
  20. BILKO1
    Offline

    BILKO1 Member

    Joined:
    Sep 1, 2003
    Messages:
    301
    Likes Received:
    1
    [Dec 26, 2010]
    Did you use a genuine coolant temp sensor? if not i highly recommend you do. As for the wiring loom for the injectors that normally causes a permanent misfire not just when cold and should throw up a code in VCDS.
    #20
  21. Funkyfin2000
    Offline

    Funkyfin2000 Member

    Joined:
    Sep 1, 2005
    Messages:
    485
    Likes Received:
    5
    [Dec 27, 2010]
    Interesting. Yup genuine Temp Sender from TPS and no improvement.

    New Glow plugs and an improvement in Starting but still lumpy on tickover....

    I do have this alternator pulley issue....wander if thats not helping?

    Will take another video this morning and post it up.
    #21
  22. Funkyfin2000
    Offline

    Funkyfin2000 Member

    Joined:
    Sep 1, 2005
    Messages:
    485
    Likes Received:
    5
    [Dec 28, 2010]
    #22
  23. BILKO1
    Offline

    BILKO1 Member

    Joined:
    Sep 1, 2003
    Messages:
    301
    Likes Received:
    1
    [Dec 28, 2010]
    Jesus that sounds like a tractor compared to my tdi i hope it's just the mic your using. It sounds very tappety to me when was the last oil change and did you use the proper oil for the pd engine? What mileage has the engine done.
    #23
  24. Funkyfin2000
    Offline

    Funkyfin2000 Member

    Joined:
    Sep 1, 2005
    Messages:
    485
    Likes Received:
    5
    [Dec 29, 2010]
    When cold thats what it sounds like!!!! Engine rocks as you can see. That part of the alternator pulley moves about!

    I have a knacered engine mount which will lead it to rock quite a bit and I bnelieve the clutch is knacered on the laternator too so thats all being sorted on Friday thank goodness and we see if thats rsorted anything!

    Mileage is 100k as seen on the video. Engine serviced at Audi in September 2010. They have used the right oil.
    #24
  25. quattro tony
    Offline

    quattro tony Member

    Joined:
    Sep 4, 2010
    Messages:
    167
    Likes Received:
    0
    [Dec 29, 2010]
    Hi rich, crikey i now know the extent of the problems you have been having seem your vids , Ive never seen a pd start so bad before you replaced the glow plugs!, glad its slightly better. There is def something wrong with yours, I hope we can get to the bottom of it. The injector loom is the located inside the cylinder head and connects all the injectors up in a loom to the end of the cylinder head. They are pretty common, but normally cause a missfire fault code in the ecu ( the ones ive done always have)I take it your air and fuel filters are in good condition. It looks like a possible fueling issue to me, do you know if the timing belt has been done? ive had some where the timing has been out and cause running problems. The air flow meters can be troublesome and cause fueling problems. I would def check the egr valve and the air shut off valve which are bolted to the inlet manifold. Check carefully the vacuum hoses and the solenoids. ive seen the rubber hoses split and chafe . If you can take off the egr valve and inspect it. I did mine when and found it was clogged up, gave it a good clean and it felt a lot better,your mileage is pretty good, ive seen these engines with 200k and still run spot on.Also does the engine use any coolant?
    #25
  26. Funkyfin2000
    Offline

    Funkyfin2000 Member

    Joined:
    Sep 1, 2005
    Messages:
    485
    Likes Received:
    5
    [Dec 29, 2010]
    Hi Tony,

    Thanks for taking an interest!

    Well so far I know the following:

    I have 1 VAG com error - this is regarding the electronic enginemount...this can cause violent shaking with the car. This will be replaced on Friday

    I have no injector loom errors.

    I have replaced the coolant sensor for a genuine Audi item.

    Battery is 75% and working fine.

    I have an issue with the clutch pulley so it seems but I am not entirely sure if thats the case, It would be handy if someone who has seen the second video could confirm there thoughts. Although on another thread on here someone asked me to twizzle the alternator fans and they won't move either way with a screwdriver which apparantly conmfirms the pulley/clutch is knacered.

    I have replaced all 4 glow plugs for Bosch items. This has improved the non starting but still gives misfiring until nice and warm andbeen revved up.

    I noticed today that when revving the car, the car wobbles as the revs drop slightly. You can feel it through the car. Rev it and as they drop the car wobbles.

    I will get the EGR cleaned on Friday and I have asked my mechniac to fit a new fuel filter.

    I don't think its the injector loom but open to any more suggestions.

    The car doesn't use any coolant or oil.

    I really need to get the alternator puley issue sorted and the engine mount as I guess these won't be helping so lets see what Friday brings!

    Chers

    Rich
    #26
  27. Funkyfin2000
    Offline

    Funkyfin2000 Member

    Joined:
    Sep 1, 2005
    Messages:
    485
    Likes Received:
    5
    [Dec 29, 2010]
    Sorry forgot to say the cambelt and waterpump were changed at Audi in September before I owned the car. Receipts to prove. Is it worth asking my mechanic on Friday to check the timing? Is this an easy job?
    #27
  28. Funkyfin2000
    Offline

    Funkyfin2000 Member

    Joined:
    Sep 1, 2005
    Messages:
    485
    Likes Received:
    5
    [Dec 30, 2010]
    Other suggetions Ive been told to look at:

    1. Diesel Injector Return Pipes/Fuel Return Pipes? Are they worth checking?
    2. Fuel Pump Timing? Can this be checked?
    3. Cambelt and Followers!
    #28
  29. Funkyfin2000
    Offline

    Funkyfin2000 Member

    Joined:
    Sep 1, 2005
    Messages:
    485
    Likes Received:
    5
    [Dec 30, 2010]
    #29
  30. Funkyfin2000
    Offline

    Funkyfin2000 Member

    Joined:
    Sep 1, 2005
    Messages:
    485
    Likes Received:
    5
    [Dec 30, 2010]
    and just for sanitys sake ive done a vag com scan:

    engine module shows the engine mount issue:

    17994 - Engine Mount Solenoid Valves (N144/N145): Short to Plus
    P1586 - 35-10 - - - Intermittent

    no other faults found :(

    Also just realised that the wobble on the car when revving ALWAYS happens at 1000-1100 RPM.
    Rev the car and as the revs drop down, as it hits that RPM it gives a slight shake to the car. More noticeable with higher REVS. Quick blip and not so noticeable.

    I hope someone isnt gonna say DMF/Clutch!!!!!!
    Last edited: Dec 30, 2010
    #30
  31. quattro tony
    Offline

    quattro tony Member

    Joined:
    Sep 4, 2010
    Messages:
    167
    Likes Received:
    0
    [Dec 30, 2010]
    hi, thanks for the update, Im pretty sure the engine mount fault code is not the cause of the bad running as ive seen this fault code b4 and they didnt do what yours does.I would imagine you might feel a bit more vibration inside the cabin than it should be, but it is something that should be rectified anyways.
    Ive just seen your latest vid and the noise sounds normal to me, i know mine does it and im pretty sure its compressor stall from the turbo, its louder near the air intake to the air filter. The clutch pulley i think you are refering to is the one on the alternator?. this can make the drive belt squeal especially if you hold the steering in full lock.I tend to call these free wheeling alternator pulleys. You can check these easily by taking of the drive belt , carefully lock the fan blade with a screw driver and see if you can turn the pulley without resistance, if you carnt the pulley is siezed up, thats how i check them anyways;)
    The other bits you mentioned I would imagine the timing was set correctly if its been done at audi but you never know. Mine was done at audi before i bought it and when i went to double check it , i found it slightly out.You really need to strip down the front end to check it 100% as you need to get in to lock the crankshaft sprocket.
    The pd engine doesn't have a injection pump as such but each injector has its own injection pump built in and they are operated by the camshaft under high pressure they can make upto 2000 bar. They are all controlled by the ecu via the injection loom and the ecu controls the fueling of the injectors via the data receives from the engine sensors. The injectors can be adjusted but normally don't need to be touched unless the injector has been replaced and they don't have injector pipes or return pipes just channels in the head to return the fuel. The only pipes you can check are the pipes on the tandem fuel pump , back of the head. The camshafts can wear but you would get bad running always, has all rubber hoses been checked on the car carefully?
    One other thing ive come across with a similar prob to yours was the fuel lift pump in the tank which was going faulty and making it sometimes run rough just like yours when cold. I think i could see the fuel pressure dropping which led me to look at the pump.
    #31
  32. quattrojames
    Offline

    quattrojames Moderator Staff Member Moderator

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2008
    Messages:
    13,951
    Likes Received:
    499
    [Dec 30, 2010]
    Mine has had the intermittent engine mount solenoid fault for a couple of years but you would never know there was anything wrong.

    Don't forget that the video will pick up and exaggerate all the rattly noises, I'm sure the engine sounds worse on that video than if you were to see and hear it in real life.
    #32
  33. Funkyfin2000
    Offline

    Funkyfin2000 Member

    Joined:
    Sep 1, 2005
    Messages:
    485
    Likes Received:
    5
    [Dec 30, 2010]
    Tony - Once again thank you for your invaluable feedback (and James of course!)

    So then, thinking is, the clutch pulley is probably not the cause of the issue, it's probably more likely to be a fueling issue.

    The engine mount we think is a red herring - may just cause slight wobble but is worth replacing just to get it out the equation.

    If we look at the facts it tends to point that way as using the car in the day everything is fine with the idling and running (bar the wobble at 1000RPM when liftiing off the throttle) but left over night thats when we have the trouble.

    At that point am I right in thinking that fuel has regressed slightly in the engine and needs an extra shove from the fuel lift pump to get it through?

    Can the injectors pressure be checked on VAG Com??? IE can we see if the injector loom is at fault? I might get the mechanic to check it visually and give the contacts a clean up.

    Can the fuel lift pump be checked on VaG Com?

    Can the cambelt timing be checked when the alternator clutch pulley is done as the front end of the car has to come off for this?

    Tomorrow my mechanic has said we can get the car really looked at for these issues. He is a small VW specialist (Staffs VW (Volkswagen) Specialist | BVR Automotive) and really knows his stuff so hope we can get to the bottom of it.

    Any quick feedback would be great ready for tomorrows visit at 9am :D

    Rich
    #33
  34. Funkyfin2000
    Offline

    Funkyfin2000 Member

    Joined:
    Sep 1, 2005
    Messages:
    485
    Likes Received:
    5
    [Dec 30, 2010]
    #34
  35. BILKO1
    Offline

    BILKO1 Member

    Joined:
    Sep 1, 2003
    Messages:
    301
    Likes Received:
    1
    [Dec 30, 2010]
    Can't answer all your questions but the fuel lift pump is known as the tandem pump (does the vacuum for the brake servo to) it's purely mechanical so won't show on VCDS but it is quite common for them to leak. It's cam driven at the rear of the engine. You don't need to take the front of the car off to do the alternator pulley, i've done these at the side of the road in about an hour but you do need special tools to change it.
    #35
  36. Funkyfin2000
    Offline

    Funkyfin2000 Member

    Joined:
    Sep 1, 2005
    Messages:
    485
    Likes Received:
    5
    [Dec 31, 2010]
    Well not long back from my mechanic! He is a top geezer and I have been there all day pottering around the unit as he worked on the motor.

    Firstly we took the front end off (well hung it down a bit) to check the timing. Timing is SPOT on he said, no problems there.

    Then we changed the alternator pulley/clutch. Definetly at fault comparing old one to new one so glad that was changed.

    The tensioner part that I show in the video is suppose to move about like that, this is normal behaviour.

    Front end put back, all hoses checked and only issue found was the intercooler hose needed nipping up slightly.

    Engine mount then changed for new one and plugged back in.

    New Fuel Filter fitted - the pipes going to the filter were a bit mangled from previous garage fitting stupid clips that have chewed up the pipework so just nipped off those bits so it was clean just incase any air was getting in.

    We then started the car back up. No problems with rough running as expected as engine been warm. But you can see the engine rock about and move about a lot randomly.

    My mechanics assessment is we could have early signs of DMF failure :( Bit of a noice from the back of the engine etc. He said that can cause the random rocking of the engine too.

    We couldn't clean the EGR as its a bit of a job as pipes in the way and needs a good hour to take off and clean properly. But I will get this done in about a week time when I am getting my braided brake lines fitted.

    Then we fitted all new disks and pads all round!

    Not a cheap day for me :( Not good when I have already had my Leon Cupra R uprated clutch and back plate (£505) and DMF and labour (£450) fitted just before Christmas with him :( Its been an expensive month!!!

    I have yet to test the car in the morning but will do.

    Mechanic also cleared the mount error from VAG com and check measuring blocks and everything looked spot on.

    He has suggested some injector cleaner as well which I will get tomorrow.

    There we go.......DMF/Clutch AINT gonna be cheap - He said basically to keep an eye on it and wait til things get worse before doing much else past the EGR clean.

    Argghhhh!!!!!!
    #36
  37. deanski
    Offline

    deanski wax on, wax off

    Joined:
    May 20, 2010
    Messages:
    371
    Likes Received:
    6
    [Dec 31, 2010]
    my car rocks at idle sometimes and its had a new clutch and DMF.
    #37
  38. Funkyfin2000
    Offline

    Funkyfin2000 Member

    Joined:
    Sep 1, 2005
    Messages:
    485
    Likes Received:
    5
    [Jan 1, 2011]
    Interesting Well been running rhe car this morning from flat cold and it was alot better! No smoke and lumpy for about 1-2secs! Will try again in the morning!

    Could anyone tell me what cleaning the EGR will do? Could that help MPG and smoothness?
    #38
  39. deanski
    Offline

    deanski wax on, wax off

    Joined:
    May 20, 2010
    Messages:
    371
    Likes Received:
    6
    [Jan 1, 2011]
    yes deffo. its well worth doing and the intake as well.
    #39
  40. Funkyfin2000
    Offline

    Funkyfin2000 Member

    Joined:
    Sep 1, 2005
    Messages:
    485
    Likes Received:
    5
    [Jan 6, 2011]
    Will get this done soon......still no better really.

    Chucks out all that smoke too!

    Any more ideas?
    #40

Share This Page