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Lazy ESP?

Discussion in 'A3/S3/Sportback (8P Chassis)' started by cosmicblue, Nov 30, 2005.

  1. RobB
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    RobB Member

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    [Dec 2, 2005]
    Sorry to hear about your crash steveb. Glad you were all ok.

    I went on the new RS4 driving experience at Silverstone in November and some of the elements were designed to show you how effective ESP can be. I have read the magazines, I have tried messing about on roundabouts / hairpins etc in my 3.2Q but it was only on the circuit that I got to appreciate what it really can do.

    Whilst the RS4 has the option of completely turning off the ESP rather than in the A3 where it only disables certain elements (and switches back on if you hit the brakes, even if you think it is off, apparently), it really does make a difference when the car is not going where it should. The ESP works on the basis that you want to go where the front wheels are pointing, and appears to be able to help in most normal driving situations, but in extreme cases, it is not always going to be able to correct such excessive differences between actual travel and desired in such a short time period.

    To show how it can work on the course, one section was to drive at 60mph towards a wet sharp bend, realise you are going too quick, back off, turn in and then touch the brakes as most people would in a corner as the car was understeering. This leads to the back swinging out...the goal is try to correct it all without ending up on the grass or in the gravel. We were a pretty amateur bunch, especially compared to the instructors, but I think all 22 of us managed it with ESP on, but the comedy started when it was switched off - some serious spins and sideways grass slides from most of us.

    I do think it really does help, but it is an aid, not a failsafe answer to extreme situations.

    Oh, and the RS4 was truly amazing. From the sound, the unending power (140mph in 4th) to the little things like electrically powered bolsters in the seats which squeeze you in if you press the S button on the wheel. If they do it again, you have to try it.
    #41
  2. Japper
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    Japper Ibis S3 Fan Club

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    [Dec 2, 2005]
    [ QUOTE ]
    [ QUOTE ]
    DSG is an automated manual, not an automatic. It does not have a torque converter, it is a conventional (ish) box with the electronics doing the changes.

    It may not suit all, but that's what long test drives are for. This is also the first evolution of DSG, so any glitches will get sorted over time. I mean the Veyron has a seven speed version /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

    [/ QUOTE ]

    You have bought the hype I'm afraid - by that logic the Audi Multitronic (CVT) is also an automated manual as that isn't equipped with a torque convertor either (an oil bath multi-plate clutch) like DSG.

    Borg-Warner developed the DSG for Audi (rather well known for their auto transmissions). The DSG is an auto box that uses two clutches to maintain drive while shifting ratios. Audi saw the opportunity to put a marketing spin on DSG and portray it as a manual transmission that could, optionally, be an auto.

    As a number of posters have noted, some most vigorously (Bowfer!) the transmission will change up by itself when the engine revs dictate.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    No, not bought the hype, just bought a car with a box that suits my lifestyle. The fact that it changes up at max revs is pure programming and can be changed i am sure. Why anyone would want to redline a diesel all the time really puzzles me.
    #42
  3. cosmicblue
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    cosmicblue Member

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    [Dec 2, 2005]
    [ QUOTE ]
    No, not bought the hype, just bought a car with a box that suits my lifestyle. The fact that it changes up at max revs is pure programming and can be changed i am sure. Why anyone would want to redline a diesel all the time really puzzles me.

    [/ QUOTE ]


    As long as you like it that is all that really matters.
    #43
  4. [Dec 2, 2005]
    Suggest audi-sport needs a new forum specifically for DSG related nonsense. After all, it's not model specific and takes up too much airtime in this forum.
    #44
  5. arthurfuxake
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    arthurfuxake Controversial & Contradictive

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    [Dec 2, 2005]
    I second that, this particular thread started out as a question about ESP!!!!
    #45
  6. Horchsense
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    Horchsense Member

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    [Dec 3, 2005]
    [ QUOTE ]
    Aqua planing is all about speed-weight-contact surface area.

    Get it wrong and you start to fly. That's why a 2cv will not aquaplane where an Audi might. The 'bicycle' wheels cut through the water.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Yeah that's what I've been lead to believe as well - big fat tyres are far more prone to aqua-planing than skinny ones (unfortunately I discovered that after the accident). However a colleague at work maintains that 4WD would have prevented the aqua-planing - can someone reliably inform me whether quattro would have helped? And how good is it for maintaining safe road adherence in "greasy" / wet road conditions??? At the moment I really start to lose my bottle when the road looks damp - particularly in the dark with tankers and artics stuck up my arse (figuratively speaking) - for those that think I'm "chicken" - check out finding that the back half of the car is overtaking the front half at 80mph...
    #46
  7. scoTTy
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    scoTTy Active Member

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    [Dec 3, 2005]
    I didn't think quattro would do much as if you lose adhesion to the road surface then there's simply no grip, however this shows that there is some advantage :

    HERE
    #47
  8. yak
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    yak Member

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    [Dec 4, 2005]
    So why the heck do I need ESP if I should turn it off in ice/snow? That's the only use for the whole system, and in no other car should it be turned off in ice. That's anyway the reason to use it, ESPs biggest advantage is to stop slipping in straight road on ice. And now I should turn it off?

    Think I should return the car, there's something seriously wrong in it.
    #48
  9. Eeef
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    Eeef Lord of War

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    [Dec 4, 2005]
    The quattro system explained in the link is only on the S4/RS4.
    #49
  10. howatsi
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    howatsi Member

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    [Dec 4, 2005]
    Judging by some of the comments, I think it is time that we all had some extra lessons about car control, use of ABS, ESP, traction control, quattro systems etc. We seem to think that with a plethora of acronyms under our feet, we are all invincible. The biggest influence on driving is the "nut" behind the wheel and it seems that several of us seem to forget this and then blame the technology when problems occur.
    #50
  11. scoTTy
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    scoTTy Active Member

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    [Dec 4, 2005]
    Some of us do already have extra lessons so with that in mind is it ok to continue the discussion?

    If you're interested in training then there's a day in Warick on the 28th December. Contact me for details. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif
    #51
  12. cosmicblue
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    cosmicblue Member

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    [Dec 4, 2005]
    [ QUOTE ]
    Some of us do already have extra lessons so with that in mind is it ok to continue the discussion?

    If you're interested in training then there's a day in Warick on the 28th December. Contact me for details. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Is 'Warick' the same place as 'Warwick'? (I actually live there /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif)
    #52
  13. marriedblonde
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    marriedblonde Moderator

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    [Dec 4, 2005]
    [ QUOTE ]
    Judging by some of the comments, I think it is time that we all had some extra lessons about car control, use of ABS, ESP, traction control, quattro systems etc. We seem to think that with a plethora of acronyms under our feet, we are all invincible. The biggest influence on driving is the "nut" behind the wheel and it seems that several of us seem to forget this and then blame the technology when problems occur.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Here, Here! Well said that man.

    Real drivers car's seem to manage without all these drivers aids...
    #53
  14. bunny
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    bunny Member

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    [Dec 4, 2005]
    Mmm back on track (boom boom) I agree that the ESP on the new A3 is less intrusive than on the MK4 Golf for example. Straightlining a 2.0TDi flatout in 2nd on damp surfaces can have the front wheels spinning all the way through the rev range despite the ESP light flickering away. (This is not a criticism, just an observation).

    Interestingly, I actually find ithe new version is better than the previous system on roundabouts. I did my own back to back comparison with a Quattro recently on a very wet (and deserted) roundabout. (FYI the Quattro was fantastic and I had to drive much faster than I actually thought possible for the conditions before ESP intervened.) But what I also discovered was that the system in my own 2WD car was superb, almost like a giant invisible hand "pushing" me back on line.

    To go back off topic, I agree that Quattro will not prevent aquaplaning, but it will certainly prevent crashes in certain circumstances that could "feel" to the driver like aquaplaning.

    I also agree with David R, but have to confess that I am as guilty as Bowfer in not "testing" my would be purchase sufficiently - perhaps I can blame the salesman sat next to me for constantly stamping on the imaginary brake pedal in the passenger footwell! Perhaps David is onto something with company cars - I am sure I would have been more careful with my own money.

    Interested in your comment Eeef - is the "basic" Quattro (or VW 4Motion) system available on lesser cars significantly inferior? I haven't driven an S4 etc but was amazed by the Quattro system in a 3.2.

    PS Agree with the driver training ideas by the way - I have spent thousands over the last 10 years on race schools and trackdays racing bikes but have pretty much no idea what to do in a car that is past its limit. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif
    #54
  15. porkapig
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    porkapig New Member

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    [Dec 5, 2005]
    aqua-planing - 4x4 makes no difference to aquaplaning at all - as stated above tyre sizes are the key - if you cant shift the water from the centre of the tyre to the outer the water builds up and you get the sheet ice effect. Very Very scary.
    Thats why when it rains and im in my 'toy' car with 285's on the rear i SLOW DOWN - live another day etc.....
    likewise 4x4 systems - people believe that they go around corners faster than 2wd cars... yes more traction out of the corner but no more grip and increased weight in the corner. Sure that comment will bring some posts from the quattro boys saying its because i dont have a quattro - but i had the daddy of all 4x4's a few years ago the lancia integrale (sure that will get some posts from the quattro boy ;-)) pumping out 330bhp - fantastic car and have driven a SWB quattro, but they are all still limited due to the physics of cornering ;-)
    #55
  16. Eeef
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    Eeef Lord of War

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    [Dec 5, 2005]
    [ QUOTE ]

    Interested in your comment Eeef - is the "basic" Quattro (or VW 4Motion) system available on lesser cars significantly inferior? I haven't driven an S4 etc but was amazed by the Quattro system in a 3.2.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    I was just picking up on what was shown in the linked article. However, I suspect that it's the same as any automotive development, the newer it is the better it is (in theory). I think the article said it was only on the new S4 & RS4.
    #56
  17. madvw
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    madvw Active Member

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    [Dec 5, 2005]
    [ QUOTE ]
    So why the heck do I need ESP if I should turn it off in ice/snow? That's the only use for the whole system, and in no other car should it be turned off in ice. That's anyway the reason to use it, ESPs biggest advantage is to stop slipping in straight road on ice. And now I should turn it off?

    Think I should return the car, there's something seriously wrong in it.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    If the conditions are icy or snowy (i.e. patches of) then ESP is fine, it will cope. However if driving ON ice or snow (solid sheets of ice, or blanket snow), then it should be turned off.

    ESP will monitor each wheels grip, so assuming that at least 1 wheel has grip, it'll cope. If driving on surfaces where all 4 wheels have no grip, then It'll not know what do to, and apply the brakes (by cutting the revs), basically resulting in you going nowhere.

    ESP is not designed for for this, all it does is transfer power from wheels that don't have grip to those that do, and apply the brakes if it thinks its getting out of shape.
    #57
  18. Amchlolor
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    Amchlolor Active Member

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    [Dec 5, 2005]
    [ QUOTE ]
    So why the heck do I need ESP if I should turn it off in ice/snow? That's the only use for the whole system, and in no other car should it be turned off in ice. That's anyway the reason to use it, ESPs biggest advantage is to stop slipping in straight road on ice. And now I should turn it off?

    Think I should return the car, there's something seriously wrong in it.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Audi are not the only manufacturer that recommends switching off traction control in some conditions (mostly snow).
    I can't remember which make of car it was I owned before,but one of them also recommended switching off the traction control.
    Sometimes,it's better to have both wheels spinning equally in snow than to have the car constantly snatching and grabbing as the traction control works overtime.

    The trouble with traction control/ESP is that it's only really meant to keep inexperienced drivers out of hedges.

    Experienced drivers will usually always react in an appropriate manner at the same time as the ESP,resulting in double the reaction.

    Good for hopeless drivers,not so good for good drivers.

    At least you can switch it off though,if you can stand the warning light in your face.

    It's surely only a matter of time until the 'anti-law suit brigade' take over and it's on all the time,making the car hard to crash,but no fun either.
    #58
  19. bacardi
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    bacardi Active Member

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    [Dec 5, 2005]
    [ QUOTE ]
    [ QUOTE ]
    So why the heck do I need ESP if I should turn it off in ice/snow? That's the only use for the whole system, and in no other car should it be turned off in ice. That's anyway the reason to use it, ESPs biggest advantage is to stop slipping in straight road on ice. And now I should turn it off?

    Think I should return the car, there's something seriously wrong in it.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Audi are not the only manufacturer that recommends switching off traction control in some conditions (mostly snow).
    I can't remember which make of car it was I owned before,but one of them also recommended switching off the traction control.
    Sometimes,it's better to have both wheels spinning equally in snow than to have the car constantly snatching and grabbing as the traction control works overtime.

    The trouble with traction control/ESP is that it's only really meant to keep inexperienced drivers out of hedges.

    Experienced drivers will usually always react in an appropriate manner at the same time as the ESP,resulting in double the reaction.

    Good for hopeless drivers,not so good for good drivers.

    At least you can switch it off though,if you can stand the warning light in your face.

    It's surely only a matter of time until the 'anti-law suit brigade' take over and it's on all the time,making the car hard to crash,but no fun either.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    ever watch that 5th gear where Tiff Ne(berk)Dell drove the Jag with and without ESP? Think "Good" drivers arent always faster than computers!
    #59
  20. Amchlolor
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    Amchlolor Active Member

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    [Dec 5, 2005]
    [ QUOTE ]
    [ QUOTE ]
    [ QUOTE ]
    So why the heck do I need ESP if I should turn it off in ice/snow? That's the only use for the whole system, and in no other car should it be turned off in ice. That's anyway the reason to use it, ESPs biggest advantage is to stop slipping in straight road on ice. And now I should turn it off?

    Think I should return the car, there's something seriously wrong in it.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Audi are not the only manufacturer that recommends switching off traction control in some conditions (mostly snow).
    I can't remember which make of car it was I owned before,but one of them also recommended switching off the traction control.
    Sometimes,it's better to have both wheels spinning equally in snow than to have the car constantly snatching and grabbing as the traction control works overtime.

    The trouble with traction control/ESP is that it's only really meant to keep inexperienced drivers out of hedges.

    Experienced drivers will usually always react in an appropriate manner at the same time as the ESP,resulting in double the reaction.

    Good for hopeless drivers,not so good for good drivers.

    At least you can switch it off though,if you can stand the warning light in your face.

    It's surely only a matter of time until the 'anti-law suit brigade' take over and it's on all the time,making the car hard to crash,but no fun either.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    ever watch that 5th gear where Tiff Ne(berk)Dell drove the Jag with and without ESP? Think "Good" drivers arent always faster than computers!

    [/ QUOTE ]

    It maybe has it's role to play in extreme scenarios,but I'm perfectly able to control wheelspin and the odd slide myself,without all manner of aids cutting in.

    When the wife's driving,I'm glad the car has ESP though.
    #60
  21. bacardi
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    bacardi Active Member

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    [Dec 5, 2005]
    "When the wife's driving,I'm glad the car has ESP though."

    Superb!!!!
    #61
  22. Amchlolor
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    Amchlolor Active Member

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    [Dec 5, 2005]
    [ QUOTE ]
    "When the wife's driving,I'm glad the car has ESP though."

    Superb!!!!

    [/ QUOTE ]

    It wasn't meant to be a jokey comment,but I see how you took it as one ! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beerchug.gif

    I meant that the missus wouldn't have the first clue what to do with wheelspin or a slide,so I'm genuinely glad it's there.
    #62
  23. madvw
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    madvw Active Member

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    [Dec 5, 2005]
    [ QUOTE ]

    I meant that the missus wouldn't have the first clue what to do with wheelspin or a slide,so I'm genuinely glad it's there.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    I know what u mean there, the ESP was a crucial buying point for me, as i know what she was like in the corrado.. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif
    #63
  24. Karcsi
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    [Dec 5, 2005]
    [ QUOTE ]

    I can't remember which make of car it was I owned before,but one of them also recommended switching off the traction control.
    Sometimes,it's better to have both wheels spinning equally in snow than to have the car constantly snatching and grabbing as the traction control works overtime.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Do they? I thought unless the car has LSD, the wheel with the least amount of grip will received the most power? That's what happened with my neighbours Vauxhall Omega, admittedly 10 years ago. Icy road, tried to come away from the kerb, nearside spinning furiously, offside doing nothing.



    [ QUOTE ]

    The trouble with traction control/ESP is that it's only really meant to keep inexperienced drivers out of hedges.

    Experienced drivers will usually always react in an appropriate manner at the same time as the ESP,resulting in double the reaction.

    Good for hopeless drivers,not so good for good drivers.

    At least you can switch it off though,if you can stand the warning light in your face.

    It's surely only a matter of time until the 'anti-law suit brigade' take over and it's on all the time,making the car hard to crash,but no fun either.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Agree completely. My wheels spin, so I back of the throttle, so does the ESP, I go nowhere fast. I guess my reactions are just too slow. At the weekend, tried to get away fast with and without ESP on the greasy road. I swear I was faster without, but the ESP did a very good job when I just planted my foot to the floor and let it sort it out.

    One thing that really worries me is a very load sound of a knock at one of the wheels when I'm accelerating and one wheel goes over a small pothole, as the ESP kicks in a for second. I also had it happen yesterday as I braked coming slowly into a pothole ridden layby - I thought I have hit a brick and damaged a wheel, but no brick and no damage. Is it meant to do that?!
    #64
  25. Amchlolor
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    Amchlolor Active Member

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    [Dec 5, 2005]
    [ QUOTE ]
    Do they? I thought unless the car has LSD, the wheel with the least amount of grip will received the most power? That's what happened with my neighbours Vauxhall Omega, admittedly 10 years ago. Icy road, tried to come away from the kerb, nearside spinning furiously, offside doing nothing.

    One thing that really worries me is a very load sound of a knock at one of the wheels when I'm accelerating and one wheel goes over a small pothole, as the ESP kicks in a for second. I also had it happen yesterday as I braked coming slowly into a pothole ridden layby - I thought I have hit a brick and damaged a wheel, but no brick and no damage. Is it meant to do that?!

    [/ QUOTE ]

    You don't need an LSD to get both wheels spinning together in slippery conditions.
    As I understand it,LSD's are more designed to stop wheelspin when cornering,where the natural tendency is for the 'light' wheel to spin.

    As for your knocking,I don't get that,sorry.
    #65
  26. h5djr
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    h5djr Well-Known Member VCDS Map User

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    [Dec 5, 2005]
    Yes maybe some "Good" drivers can control wheelspin and the odd slide, but volume car makers have to make cars that appeal to Mr or Mrs Average and they tend to like all the additional "Aids" to better and / or safer driving. At least Audi allow you to switch it off if you prefer.

    Having just retuned from a few days driving in Germany I think Mr and Mrs Average German probably quite like all these extra aids as they do tend to drive a lot faster that we do in the UK. Probably something to do with only having speed limits where they are necessary and no limit at all on long stretches of Autobahn.

    If there was one single thing I could import from Germany and use in this country it would be the numerious 'No over-taking by Lorries' signs used on the Autobahns. Makes for much better and safer driving.
    #66
  27. Karcsi
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    [Dec 5, 2005]
    Cheers Bowfer. The X-type's wheels were spinning together on 5th Gear, and I doubt it has LSD. Could be some other gizmo then that these days limits the amount of power distributed between the two wheels.


    I wonder whether the banging is due to the front wheel losing all grip as I hit the pot hole, but suddenly regain when the tyre touches tarmac again. I'm going to keep an eye on it, because it can't be good for the transmission. Just have to drive more carefully I guess.
    #67
  28. bunny
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    [Dec 5, 2005]
    [ QUOTE ]

    likewise 4x4 systems - people believe that they go around corners faster than 2wd cars... yes more traction out of the corner but no more grip and increased weight in the corner. Sure that comment will bring some posts from the quattro boys saying its because i dont have a quattro - but i had the daddy of all 4x4's a few years ago the lancia integrale (sure that will get some posts from the quattro boy ;-)) pumping out 330bhp - fantastic car and have driven a SWB quattro, but they are all still limited due to the physics of cornering ;-)

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Sorry but I think your comments are too simplistic and would argue that in most situations 4x4 does indeed give you more cornering grip. I understand your point but in many situations the driven wheels (whether front or rear) will break traction first. If you are referring to a corner where you simply freewheel through in neutral then I would agree, but in most situations drive is applied, even if on a trailing throttle.

    Again I believe that many situations labelled "aquaplaning" involve the driven wheels breaking away first followed shortly by the other two wheels. Quattro would be helpful in these situations.
    #68
  29. cosmicblue
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    cosmicblue Member

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    [Dec 5, 2005]
    [ QUOTE ]
    Cheers Bowfer. The X-type's wheels were spinning together on 5th Gear, and I doubt it has LSD. Could be some other gizmo then that these days limits the amount of power distributed between the two wheels.


    I wonder whether the banging is due to the front wheel losing all grip as I hit the pot hole, but suddenly regain when the tyre touches tarmac again. I'm going to keep an eye on it, because it can't be good for the transmission. Just have to drive more carefully I guess.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Limited Slip Differentials (LSD) are actually quite rare in performance road cars partly because the effect on the drive train is pretty harsh - great in a race car on a rally/track pretty grim in an every day car.

    As the name suggests they limit the speed differences between the driven wheels on that axle, typically the differences in rotational speed that are attributed a high drive loads or sharp cornering.

    The point of 'lock up' can deliver quite a fierce jolt, not nice.
    #69
  30. marriedblonde
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    marriedblonde Moderator

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    [Dec 6, 2005]
    [ QUOTE ]

    One thing that really worries me is a very load sound of a knock at one of the wheels when I'm accelerating and one wheel goes over a small pothole, as the ESP kicks in a for second. I also had it happen yesterday as I braked coming slowly into a pothole ridden layby - I thought I have hit a brick and damaged a wheel, but no brick and no damage. Is it meant to do that?!

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Don't worry it's due to the car having unequal length drive shafts, also a main cause of torque steer, its the wheel wheel bouncing up and down.

    Happens in just about every front wheel drive car, a lot of people with earlier FWD golfs etc that have been tuned swap the gear box over to a TT/S3 item as they have equal length drive shafts.

    J.
    #70
  31. Karcsi
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    [Dec 6, 2005]
    Thanks J. Do you have a link by any chance that explains this characteristic? It's good to know it's a known thing, but I'd still like to know how it happens and in what circumstances so that I can avoid it - and also what possible damage it can cause. It's only with uneven ground that it seems to happen, but even then randomly.
    #71
  32. marriedblonde
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    marriedblonde Moderator

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    [Dec 6, 2005]
    I don;t I'm affraid but I'm sur ei can dig one up somewhere...

    To test out your theory get your car out in the rain, turn off ESP and boot it... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

    J.
    #72
  33. imported_S_Line
    Online

    imported_S_Line Guest

    [Dec 7, 2005]
    Got to amit i used the ESP this afternoon.

    From the Lights i had a swept right hand 90 degree turn, of course i was at the front of the lights /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif


    So made sure ESP was turned back on /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif and just floored it while turning right into the 2 lanes and just kept the foot planted /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

    I would have never have done this in any other car as it would have got messy as the road was very wet.

    But just as i had expected after a bad start (ESP cut power off at teh detection of front wheel spin)

    It drove me round on what i thought was full open throttle.

    Not sure if it was letting full power out but goodness me did it fly round without no wheel spin and not slipping. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif
    ESP i salute you /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

    Next time ill try the same but drive using my Knees ! LOL !
    #73
  34. yak
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    yak Member

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    [Dec 8, 2005]
    [ QUOTE ]
    Audi are not the only manufacturer that recommends switching off traction control in some conditions (mostly snow).

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Actually checking my manual says one should turn off ESP in the case you get stuck in the snow. Not on any other case, right as it should be.

    As the ESP in Audi is not designed by Audi, there shouldn't be so big differences. Then again, manual says lots of funny things, have you ever checked the "ecodriving" section? Complete **** /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

    Anyway, turning off ESP will still keep LSD-emulation on, which is why it will go in the deep snow. Deep snow in this case is about 30, where you will eventually get stuck anyway, but ESP will unfortunately make you stop even faster if you're going uphill.

    [ QUOTE ]
    The trouble with traction control/ESP is that it's only really meant to keep inexperienced drivers out of hedges.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    However as much as you like that idea, it's false. The advantage of ESP is that it's much faster than any driver and can react differently than any driver. It has the capabilities of breaking any one tyre to make the car go straight. Also it doesn't have the huge reaction time that human does.

    It wasn't removed from F1 because drivers were better, instead quite the opposite, ESP was driving the car in the corners faster than drivers. And technology has only gone further.

    [ QUOTE ]
    Experienced drivers will usually always react in an appropriate manner at the same time as the ESP,resulting in double the reaction.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Good driver would know how to react on ESP as well, old drivers are too used to their ways of driving and wouldn't know how to change their ways of driving with the ESP. That doesn't make old driver a better driver however.

    [ QUOTE ]
    At least you can switch it off though,if you can stand the warning light in your face.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    And that one day on icy road at 60mph you will get a little slip and end up hitting the car coming from opposite direction. Very common reason for deaths in driving accidents in Northern Europe. This is where ESP is the only thing that can stop the car. It reacts so much faster than human.

    - Yak
    #74
  35. god_thats_quick
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    god_thats_quick Numptie of the highest order

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    [Dec 8, 2005]
    well said, did no one see the tests of the Jag (I think) on top gear or 5th gear where they tried to avoid something on ice, with it off... not a chance! with it on it was a non event and the car drove around the problem.

    My S3 doesn't have ESP and to be honest I don't care but it's daft to say the system is not amasing - I think it's another bosch invention from memory.
    #75
  36. bunny
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    bunny Member

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    [Dec 8, 2005]
    [ QUOTE ]
    [ QUOTE ]
    Audi are not the only manufacturer that recommends switching off traction control in some conditions (mostly snow).

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Actually checking my manual says one should turn off ESP in the case you get stuck in the snow. Not on any other case, right as it should be.

    As the ESP in Audi is not designed by Audi, there shouldn't be so big differences. Then again, manual says lots of funny things, have you ever checked the "ecodriving" section? Complete **** /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

    Anyway, turning off ESP will still keep LSD-emulation on, which is why it will go in the deep snow. Deep snow in this case is about 30, where you will eventually get stuck anyway, but ESP will unfortunately make you stop even faster if you're going uphill.

    [ QUOTE ]
    The trouble with traction control/ESP is that it's only really meant to keep inexperienced drivers out of hedges.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    However as much as you like that idea, it's false. The advantage of ESP is that it's much faster than any driver and can react differently than any driver. It has the capabilities of breaking any one tyre to make the car go straight. Also it doesn't have the huge reaction time that human does.

    It wasn't removed from F1 because drivers were better, instead quite the opposite, ESP was driving the car in the corners faster than drivers. And technology has only gone further.

    [ QUOTE ]
    Experienced drivers will usually always react in an appropriate manner at the same time as the ESP,resulting in double the reaction.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Good driver would know how to react on ESP as well, old drivers are too used to their ways of driving and wouldn't know how to change their ways of driving with the ESP. That doesn't make old driver a better driver however.

    [ QUOTE ]
    At least you can switch it off though,if you can stand the warning light in your face.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    And that one day on icy road at 60mph you will get a little slip and end up hitting the car coming from opposite direction. Very common reason for deaths in driving accidents in Northern Europe. This is where ESP is the only thing that can stop the car. It reacts so much faster than human.

    - Yak

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Excellent post Yak - I know we all like to think we're good drivers but can any of us properly control lift-off oversteer etc on the road? I have been racing bikes for years and know the difference between a skilled track rider (like me) and your typical Sunday hero who can pull the occasional wheelie past the pub, and believe me the difference is huge. I can only imagine the same applies to "enthusiastic" drivers who haven't honed any skills on the track under expert guidance for a number of years (and an afternoon out with a red letter day event does not a skilled driver make).
    #76
  37. Karcsi
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    Karcsi Member

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    [Dec 8, 2005]
    [ QUOTE ]
    ... a skilled track rider (like me)...

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Go on, say what you feel, don't be modest. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

    Correct though. I'd never be happy driving at any sort of speed on the roads without the ESP and doing it reasonably sensibly. A little experimentation on a desserted wet wide roundabout at low speed, fine. But I hate it when people say they enjoy a sports car because it is a little tail happy in corners on PUBLIC roads, and that cars like the TT are boring because they are too safe.

    I'd love to, some time in the new year, gone on a day's training to experience how to handle a car. No, it won't make me a skilled driver. But it will hopely give me a better chance should someone happen on the road. Then again, if it something the ESP can't handle, you are going way to fast or the accident is too sudden, so you haven't got a cat's chance in hell no matter how skilled you are.
    #77
  38. Amchlolor
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    Amchlolor Active Member

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    [Dec 8, 2005]
    Sorry,I think Yak is talking a lot of nonsense.
    Most of us above the age of 25 have probably driven a fair number of cars without any form of traction control or ESP,and we're all still here to talk about it.

    I'm perfectly happy driving cars without traction or ESP.
    It doesn't bother me.
    I can control wheelspin myself and I can control slides myself but,then again,I've been driving complete wrecks of cars around fields since I was 12.

    In fact,I often miss those days,prior to all manner of electronic aids that take all the fun and skill out of driving.

    Christ,with ESP engaged,a skilled driver probably has little advantage over an unskilled one,but is that a good thing ?

    There's an argument that says the likes of ESP could actually lull poor drivers into a false sense of security,giving them a feeling of invincibility.

    Like I said,I think ESP is an excellent AID,in some scenarios,but it certainly is NOT the 'life or death must have' that he suggests it is.

    I note the Zonda isn't fitted with any kind of electronic aid.

    Would you refuse to drive one Yak ? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

    [ QUOTE ]
    Then again, if it something the ESP can't handle, you are going way to fast or the accident is too sudden, so you haven't got a cat's chance in hell no matter how skilled you are.


    [/ QUOTE ]

    That kind of comment scares me.You're either far too reliant on the ESP,or have a completely false opinion of it's capabilities.It doesn't make the car uncrashable you know. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif

    It is an AID to driving,not a REPLACEMENT for basic ability. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked2.gif

    It will HELP you,not take over !
    #78
  39. bacardi
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    bacardi Active Member

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    [Dec 8, 2005]
    Bowfer - you're faster than ESP? Awesome!
    #79
  40. Amchlolor
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    Amchlolor Active Member

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    [Dec 8, 2005]
    [ QUOTE ]
    Bowfer - you're faster than ESP? Awesome!

    [/ QUOTE ]

    You mean you never manage to back off the throttle before than the traction control cuts in (we're talking fractions of a second here) ?

    I do,all the time.

    Do you just keep your foot on the throttle and wait for the car to do everything for you ? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/noidea.gif
    #80

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