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Lazy ESP?

Discussion in 'A3/S3/Sportback (8P Chassis)' started by cosmicblue, Nov 30, 2005.

  1. cosmicblue
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    cosmicblue Member

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    The Bosch based ESP function includes Traction Control.

    I have had cars for several years that have had ESP and it has always felt like the Traction Control(TC) side of things cut in a bit early with the light flashing away with no real provocation.

    On the 2.0TDi it seems the other way around and the ESP seems to wait until things have got seriously out of hand before doing anything about it.

    I guess the wicked torque of the TDi can just plain overwhelm the available grip - it feels like the ESP takes ages to wake up? Anyone else experienced this?
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  2. OutLore
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    OutLore VOIP Dude

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    Yeah definately. I'm not sure if the ESP takes into account rear wheel rotation, but if you can get both front wheels spinning then it seems to not be too clever.....

    But then I might be wrong....
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  3. Fuzzman
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    Fuzzman Member

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    On my 3.2Q I found that It has not come on at all.

    So that means that I have not push it hard.

    Or they have modified the ESP Software.
    #3
  4. madvw
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    madvw Active Member

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    Found this when i has a 2.0T FSI earlier this year. The ESP didnt come on at all, and got to the point where it was damn annoying. I could only assume that the front end was so boat-like, that it would have been far too intrusive if it was too sensitive.
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  5. Amchlolor
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    Amchlolor Active Member

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    Audi have definitely slashed the sensitivity of the ESP between my A4 and my A3.
    It used to cut in very early and very clumsily on my A4.
    It's still quite clumsy on the A3,but it takes longer to come in,so you don't notice so much.
    Haven't had the urge to switch it off yet,as I constantly did with my A4 (resulting in an annoying warning light on the dash all the time).
    #5
  6. imported_S_Line
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    imported_S_Line Guest

    ITs ALWAYS off on the 3.2 as its a pain when pulling out of junctions, it cuts in and cuts the revs /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif feels like you have parked up in the middle of the road.

    Only had it on in the ice /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif
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  7. slimbloke
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    slimbloke Member

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    If I know I have to pull out fast from a junction (to avoid any idiots coming round the corner too quick before they see me) I have to switch it off, as it cuts in and looks like I can't work a clutch or something from outside!
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  8. Amchlolor
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    Amchlolor Active Member

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    [ QUOTE ]
    If I know I have to pull out fast from a junction (to avoid any idiots coming round the corner too quick before they see me) I have to switch it off, as it cuts in and looks like I can't work a clutch or something from outside!

    [/ QUOTE ]

    But you don't have a clutch... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif
    #8
  9. cosmicblue
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    cosmicblue Member

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    [ QUOTE ]
    [ QUOTE ]
    If I know I have to pull out fast from a junction (to avoid any idiots coming round the corner too quick before they see me) I have to switch it off, as it cuts in and looks like I can't work a clutch or something from outside!

    [/ QUOTE ]

    But you don't have a clutch... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

    [/ QUOTE ]

    at least 3 at any one time in DSG mode....
    #9
  10. Karcsi
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    Karcsi Member

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    Mine is just the same. I always get impatient waiting for the software to catch up and reduce the throttle myself. I've always meant to try flooring it and waiting for the ESP to sort it out, but either forget or chicken out: I already look like a fool, I feel no need to prove it!

    When ever it has cut in, I have heard/felt what feels like transmission shunt (like when you stall). Have no idea what it is.
    #10
  11. miketweed
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    miketweed Member

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    Are you guys never happy?

    ESP that cuts in too early is ****.

    Now you moan that it cuts in too late! What do you want? drive everywhere on full throttle and let the ECU drive the car for you?

    A delay is great, lets you modulate the throttle and catch it, or if you don't do it then it does it for you (a bit clumsily)

    I find it lets you slide / spin a little if your throttle is only slightly over the adhesion limit. If you clog it then it bites back and cuts power severley, waiting for you to oblige and get your fat foot of the gas pedal!

    If your pushing it, I always turn it off. Then you've nothing to worry about.
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  12. marriedblonde
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    marriedblonde Moderator

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    I think the ESP on the newer model is pretty good.

    On my previous 2 MKIV golfs (Gti and R32) the ASR and ESP where pants on both it was best to run them off.

    I thought the traction control system on the MCS I had was pretty good until I drove the Audi

    With the A3 I find theres just enough give to have some fun but it reigns you in before things get to far out of hand.

    J.
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  13. cosmicblue
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    cosmicblue Member

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    [ QUOTE ]
    Are you guys never happy?

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Correct, a clear case of 'having ones case and eating it'.

    I suspect, seeing as I'm not alone that Audi have settled on a fairly laid back setting for the Traction Control component of ESP.

    It is true that if it comes in too early it would rather blunt a quick launch off the line. If it is too intrusive we would whinge about it for sure.

    It is just much more noticeable now we have had a does of proper winter weather and the slippery, greasy slimey roads to contend with.

    Thanks for the feedback guys.
    #13
  14. yak
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    yak Member

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    Unfortunately in my A3, the ESP cuts in too aggressively in snow. It cuts the revs, while it would be better to just brake the other tyre a bit. And what happens? Car won't accelerate, sometimes in deep snow it won't move at all.

    It's good that it cuts early in ice, but in the snow it feels like it wasn't tested properly. It's too intrusive, power is cut before I even have a chance to put gear on.. I often take it off to accelerate to normal speed (without any problems of traction) and then turn it back on.

    Well, each to their own, but since we have so much snow here, I'm not expecting my ESP to act like I would have summer tyres, I would see snow for the first time and live in sahara.
    #14
  15. Japper
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    Japper Ibis S3 Fan Club

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    [ QUOTE ]

    I think the ESP on the newer model is pretty good.

    On my previous 2 MKIV golfs (Gti and R32) the ASR and ESP where pants on both it was best to run them off.

    I thought the traction control system on the MCS I had was pretty good until I drove the Audi

    With the A3 I find theres just enough give to have some fun but it reigns you in before things get to far out of hand.

    J.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Fully agree MB. The Audi system is far better than the mkiv golf. It lets you reach the limit and a little beyond before spoiling your fun. This works for me and allows me to 'adjust' the car without the fear of ESP kicking in.

    Yak,

    I think that, according to the manual you are supposed to switch ESP off in snow / ice. It's not so much of a problem with us with DSG box, because as soon as it slips in snow the box changes up quicker gaining traction again /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
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  16. madvw
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    madvw Active Member

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    the manual states that in ice and snow, ESP should be turned off.
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  17. imported_S_Line
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    imported_S_Line Guest

    [ QUOTE ]
    If I know I have to pull out fast from a junction (to avoid any idiots coming round the corner too quick before they see me) I have to switch it off, as it cuts in and looks like I can't work a clutch or something from outside!

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Yep fully agree there, because all of my driving is pulling out infront of people its allways off /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

    Best thing about the Quattro - You can floors it and pull out in front of everyone, 1 seconf later they are speck in your rear view mirror..... Ahhhhhhhhh Loveley /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif
    #17
  18. imported_S_Line
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    imported_S_Line Guest

    [ QUOTE ]
    the manual states that in ice and snow, ESP should be turned off.

    [/ QUOTE ]


    /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cry.gif

    The ole manual that only a few read /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
    #18
  19. h5djr
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    h5djr Well-Known Member

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    It never ceases to amaze me the number of drivers who spend £20+K on a new car and cannot be bothered to read the comprehensive Owner's Manual provided.

    At the saying goes - If all else fails RTFM.
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  20. Amchlolor
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    Amchlolor Active Member

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    [ QUOTE ]
    It never ceases to amaze me the number of drivers who spend £20+K on a new car and cannot be bothered to read the comprehensive Owner's Manual provided.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    It's a car,not the space shuttle.

    Given that 99% of it's operation will be second nature to most,it's quite understandable (to me) why some never read the manual.

    #20
  21. h5djr
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    h5djr Well-Known Member

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    I agree it's not a Space Shuttle, but each car is different in some small ways and each has functions that are not always that obvious - small LED for alarm and small centre sun visor are good examples. Probably not too much of a problem if you've driven Audis before.

    If it's so unnecessary why then do so many people ask questions on this forum that could be so easily answered by looking into the manual. Pure lazyness I assume.
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  22. Amchlolor
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    Amchlolor Active Member

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    [ QUOTE ]
    I agree it's not a Space Shuttle, but each car is different in some small ways and each has functions that are not always that obvious - small LED for alarm and small centre sun visor are good examples. Probably not too much of a problem if you've driven Audis before.

    If it's so unnecessary why then do so many people ask questions on this forum that could be so easily answered by looking into the manual. Pure lazyness I assume.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    So you're suggesting the forum should only deal with items not covered by the manual ?

    /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif
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  23. Japper
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    Japper Ibis S3 Fan Club

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    [ QUOTE ]
    [ QUOTE ]
    It never ceases to amaze me the number of drivers who spend £20+K on a new car and cannot be bothered to read the comprehensive Owner's Manual provided.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    It's a car,not the space shuttle.

    Given that 99% of it's operation will be second nature to most,it's quite understandable (to me) why some never read the manual.



    [/ QUOTE ]

    Sorry to butt in bowfer, but wasn't it yourself that didn't know the DSG boxes 'manual' mode was actuated by pushing the lever over from 'D' /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif
    #23
  24. h5djr
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    h5djr Well-Known Member

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    Don't be stupid bowfer. As you well know I am happy to provide any help I can to whoever asks. I have provided quite a number of answers both to forum members on the forum and others who have PMed me including copies of pages from both ETKA and ELSAWIN and other more general help from my many years of driving in general and Audis in particular.

    It's just that I sure that if some people took the trouble to read or just look up an item in the index of their manual they get the answer to the query quicker that sitting at the keyboard, typing their question and waiting to see if anyone will answer.

    To me It's a bit like you not finding out how the DSG behaves before buying it. The information is all there 'in the public domain' as they say, it just needs a little effort to stop making a silly mistake. I knew exactly how the DSG behaved long before I ever drove a car fitted with one because I took the trouble to find out. You didn't and have regretted the decision to go for the DSG ever since. I know you say that you had no choice because you wanted a S-Line but surely how a car drives is just as important if not more so that how it looks.

    Have to made any headway with changing your 'beloved' Audi yet !
    #24
  25. mikep
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    mikep Member

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    As Dave says, RTFM!!!! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/yes.gif
    #25
  26. Amchlolor
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    Amchlolor Active Member

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    [ QUOTE ]
    To me It's a bit like you not finding out how the DSG behaves before buying it. The information is all there 'in the public domain' as they say, it just needs a little effort to stop making a silly mistake. I knew exactly how the DSG behaved long before I ever drove a car fitted with one because I took the trouble to find out. You didn't and have regretted the decision to go for the DSG ever since. I know you say that you had no choice because you wanted a S-Line but surely how a car drives is just as important if not more so that how it looks.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Seeing as you wish to go down this route /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/noidea.gif,you show me one single piece of literature or internet discussion,dated prior to January of this year (which is when I ordered the car),that said the DSG changes up for you in manual mode,or suffers from delays at junctions.

    Whilst I've always admitted a test drive would,perhaps,have shown me the errors of my ways,all the literature I could find gushed about DSG,so my 'leap of faith' wasn't completely without effort or research.

    Getting back to the point,surely the beauty of forums,such as this,is that info is easily found,without having to resort to going out in the /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/swear.gif rain and rking through a pedantic manual.

    It's not as if the forum is inundated with silly repetitive requests,so I fail to understand your annoyance really.
    #26
  27. bacardi
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    bacardi Active Member

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    TC in my A3 is spot on, allows just the right amount of slip and when it cuts in it is very soft- booting it full throttle in the greasy clag we have at the moment and there is no cut out.....

    you guys think there may be differences in software?
    #27
  28. h5djr
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    h5djr Well-Known Member

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    I'm not annoyed in any way. I just find it rather sad that drivers don't want to know as much as they can about the car they drive.

    Perhaps it's a company car thing I don't know. All I do know is that, having just spent £20K, I am interested enough in my new car before it arrives and when I get it, to find out as much about it as I can and reading the Owner's Manual is a good place to start. If I can get a copy of the Manual from the dealer before I take delivery so much the better.

    I know that to some people all cars are the same and it's only 4 wheels and an engine that gets you from A to B but that sort of person is not going to frequent a car forum.

    As far as knowing about how a DSG behaves before driving one, I read so many articles and reports, mainly related to the DSG fitted in a TT, that I just cannot remember. What I can remember is the salesman at the dealers explaining how it all worked and saying about the automatic up and down changes that would override the manual settings to prevent over-reving and being to too higher gear for a given road speed.
    #28
  29. porkapig
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    not that bad a system - still better if switched off
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  30. Japper
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    Japper Ibis S3 Fan Club

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    #30
  31. cosmicblue
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    In defence of Bowfer there was (and still is) a huge amount of hype to do with DSG.

    Even today I read a long term road test of a 1.9 Golf DSG in the online edituion of Fleetnews (surely an informed journal) that opened with the imortal line "Clutchless manual gearbox".

    What rubbish (no doubt taken from some Audi press pack), DSG is an Auto box of a novel design with flippy, flappy paddles and will never be anything else. I love the DSG to bits by the way,
    #31
  32. imported_S_Line
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    the DSG is a marvel /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

    yes you can select D and off you go without a care int he world with the fastest smoothest gear changes /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

    Or slide it over to the left and enjoy the manual selection knocking down through the gears and admiring yourself when knocking down to 1st when still doing 20 mph /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

    broom boom /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif LOL !

    A bit jerky in stop start in 1st though is the only gripe.

    Whats the topic again ? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif
    #32
  33. bacardi
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    bacardi Active Member

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    hey Japper, I saw that link by you too, and I managed to ffind information out about the auto upshifts, it is not really that hard to find info out is it?!
    #33
  34. cosmicblue
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    cosmicblue Member

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    [ QUOTE ]
    Whats the topic again ? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

    [/ QUOTE ]


    It was Lazy ESP, and DSG got into the thread (again).
    #34
  35. Japper
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    Japper Ibis S3 Fan Club

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    DSG is an automated manual, not an automatic. It does not have a torque converter, it is a conventional (ish) box with the electronics doing the changes.

    It may not suit all, but that's what long test drives are for. This is also the first evolution of DSG, so any glitches will get sorted over time. I mean the Veyron has a seven speed version /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
    #35
  36. beaker
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    [ QUOTE ]
    I mean the Veyron has a seven speed version /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Yes, and it would be nice to know how much this differs from the 6 speed in the A3's - obviously its 7 speed but does it share any components? That car is putting incredible power through it. Could be that its an entirely different system. If not, it makes you wonder what all the fuss was about the torque limit on the DSG.

    I think Mike P mentioned that it should handle over 300 no bother in the revo thread.
    #36
  37. Horchsense
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    As a point of reference to all you hairy chested "no fear" he-men out there pushing your cars to the limit - I smashed up my A4 avant on a French motorway in Summer '04 - and nearly smashed up my little girl and my wife into the bargain. The car aqua-planed across the motor way and bounced off the Armco 3 or 4 times before coming to a halt. Luckily we wern't hit by any of the Artics which came hissing past - 5 minutes later and we all got out unscathed apart from my cut finger. I was simply driving too fast for the conditions and the ESP did absolutely Fxxck all.
    I now have a slight neurosis about driving much over 60 in anything but perfect conditions and regret not having specced a Quattro (stuff the DSG) for my SB. Next time round the Quattro it will be.
    #37
  38. cosmicblue
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    cosmicblue Member

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    [ QUOTE ]
    DSG is an automated manual, not an automatic. It does not have a torque converter, it is a conventional (ish) box with the electronics doing the changes.

    It may not suit all, but that's what long test drives are for. This is also the first evolution of DSG, so any glitches will get sorted over time. I mean the Veyron has a seven speed version /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

    [/ QUOTE ]

    You have bought the hype I'm afraid - by that logic the Audi Multitronic (CVT) is also an automated manual as that isn't equipped with a torque convertor either (an oil bath multi-plate clutch) like DSG.

    Borg-Warner developed the DSG for Audi (rather well known for their auto transmissions). The DSG is an auto box that uses two clutches to maintain drive while shifting ratios. Audi saw the opportunity to put a marketing spin on DSG and portray it as a manual transmission that could, optionally, be an auto.

    As a number of posters have noted, some most vigorously (Bowfer!) the transmission will change up by itself when the engine revs dictate.
    #38
  39. mickey_a6
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    Correct me if I'm wrong, but I doubt if quattro drivetrain will prevent you from aquaplaning - I seem to remember reading somewhere that it might actually be worse than front-wheel drive in some circumstances /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/noidea.gif
    #39
  40. Eeef
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    Eeef Lord of War

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    Aqua planing is all about speed-weight-contact surface area.

    Get it wrong and you start to fly. That's why a 2cv will not aquaplane where an Audi might. The 'bicycle' wheels cut through the water.
    #40

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