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Karls 3.0 TDI build thread

Discussion in 'Audi S4/A4/A4 Cab (B8 Chassis)' started by desertstorm, Dec 7, 2013.

  1. Jamie-S
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    Jamie-S Member

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    [Dec 18, 2013]
    What readings did you get from the dpf pressure?
    #41
  2. desertstorm
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    desertstorm Well-Known Member

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    [Dec 18, 2013]
    Haven't gotten around to running that again, suppose I could set it up on the way to work tonight and have a look.

    Karl.
    #42
  3. ScottishS3
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    ScottishS3 Well-Known Member

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    [Dec 28, 2013]
    Great thread!
    #43
  4. SL11CKK
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    SL11CKK Active Member

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    [Dec 31, 2013]
    Just checked your thread on your Passat and boy was that a killer car in disguise. Hope you do the same with this bad boy.

    Keep it all up! :yum:
    #44
  5. Bradderz_1988
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    Bradderz_1988 Dont replace it, Upgrade it !!

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    [Jan 10, 2014]
    DPF is going to be part of the mot test as of febuary the only way around it is by smashing out the internals as its only a visible check providing emissions go through aswell !!

    Unless you know a generous tester that is :)
    #45
  6. desertstorm
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    desertstorm Well-Known Member

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    [Jan 17, 2014]
    No updates for a while.
    Bought some new centre caps for the winter wheels. The ones that came with the wheels were a bit second hand but at £25 a pop from Audi they could stop that way. Anyway spotted some cheap ones on Ebay £15 for 4 delivered from China, Obviously copies but they looked OK.
    Only took 70 days to arrive, I had almost given up hope.But unless you look closely it's hard to tell why Audi has to charge £25 each when I have bought 4 for £15.

    [​IMG]

    Uprated Intercooler and hoses , clips etc to fit were ordered yesterday. so might be fitted next weekend.


    karl
    #46
  7. NotNormal
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    NotNormal Member

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    [Jan 17, 2014]
    Where'd you get the boost pipes from ?

    On a side note, have you ever come across anyone that offers uprated intercoolers for our engine ?
    I'm thinking of going down the route of one of the A5's you posted in the other thread - but without the meth injection
    The smoking was minimal - so intercoolers, dpf delete and revo stage 2+ software should make for a potent daily work van for me
    #47
  8. Jamie-S
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    Jamie-S Member

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    [Jan 17, 2014]
    Darkside Developments offer a intercooler for the 3.0 tdi...
    #48
  9. NotNormal
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    NotNormal Member

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    [Jan 17, 2014]
    Thank you for the heads up .... I'll have a troll through their site
    #49
  10. desertstorm
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    desertstorm Well-Known Member

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    [Jan 17, 2014]
    I am using a universal intercooler although I have not seen this particular one used on any A4 or A5 cars and I have scoured the net :) . A lot of cars just use a standard 600*300*76 universal intercooler and then use a hose to reduce from 3 inches to 2.5 inches on the connection.

    FMIC FFRONT MOUNT TURBO INTERCOOLER TYPE B 600x300x76MM | eBay

    There are plenty of intercoolers made for the B8 A4 , A5 most of them are just a bit pricey for me.
    Darkside do one but it's the best part of £500 and a good part of it ends up behind the bumper bar.

    Darkside Developments - Darkside Front Mount Intercooler (FMIC) for 2.0 / 2.7 & 3.0 TDi Audi B8 Platform

    There are several designed for the 2.0 TFSI which would work with our engines.

    Forge Motorsport | Alloy Fabrication

    AWE Tuning 2.0T Front Mounted Performance Intercooler | AWE Tuning

    I didn't want an intercooler that sits behind the bumper bar as that to me defeats the object of a FMIC also if you go higher than the standard one you start covering the Air con heat exchanger. In my last car I had a big FMIC and found in the summer the air con was next to useless when giving the car some beans as the hot air off the FMIC wouldn't cool the heat exchanger.

    If I could get my hands on one of the intercoolers off the A6 , A7 313bhp BI TDI engine I would have fitted that. There are several on Allegro which is the Polish version of Ebay but I have read too many stories about people paying for stuff and never seeing it.
    It's about 25% bigger than the standard one and looks like it would fit with little in the way of modification and probably no extra hoses.Also it would look pretty much OE.Has cast alloy end tanks and looks like it would flow a lot better than the standard FMIC.
    Part number is 4G0145805J


    Audi A7 Ladeluftkühler Tuning A5 A4 Q5 3.0TDI 2.7TDI 3.0TFSI 2.0TFSI Intercooler | eBay

    INTERCOOLER AUDI A7 Q5 3.0TDI 4g0145805j (3891624070) - Allegro.pl - Więcej niż aukcje.

    Karl
    #50
  11. desertstorm
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    desertstorm Well-Known Member

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    [Jan 26, 2014]
    Well got around to fitting the new intercooler today it was quite a decent day here this morning and it was a fairly simple install really.

    Intercooler came in a really nice padded box, very posh.

    [​IMG]

    Its a Mishimoto J line off Fleabay

    [​IMG]

    Picked this because the Mishimoto stuff seems to get reasonable reviews, It was the right size, you can fit much bigger intercoolers but they get hidden behind the front bumper bar which is a waste of time and they also will not allow proper airflow for the air con rad and I found on the Passat the air con was not as good as it had been before the intercooler fit because it wasn't seeing ambient temperature air.
    This intercooler is about 20% bigger than standard but it's a bar and plate and weighs 8.5Kg where as the standard intercooler comes in at just over 3Kg. There is a lot more material in the Mishimoto.
    The M on the front is just matt black spray paint and came off really easy with a brass wire brush. The intercooler is painted and this didn't touch the paint so looks good for the future.

    Heres what it looks like inside

    [​IMG]

    All the bits to fit it. All in the intercooler, hoses, clips and alloy joiner tube cost £255.

    [​IMG]

    Here is the original and new one

    [​IMG]

    And a look in the end of the original, actually very little oil in there for a car with 75K on the clock.

    [​IMG]

    Just some small strips of sturdy metal bracket hung off the front bumper bar to support the intercooler. Very easy install.

    [​IMG]

    Cut the hoses to length and fitted the clips, these hoses aren't going anywhere.had to bend an AC line up a little bit for clearance but it was only a small amount so not an issue.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    Looking from the front, the full face of the intercooler is exposed and there is a small gap at the top to allow some direct air through.

    [​IMG]

    I completed some test runs, off road of course, before fitting to try and establish whether the new intercooler was an improvement or not.These are shots of some logs I took before and after.

    Before 6.5 degrees and raining

    [​IMG]

    After 4 degrees and dry

    [​IMG]

    The starting temperatures at the beginning of the runs are high because I had do 2-3 runs before. I logged RPM , Speed , specified and actual boost, intake temperature and the Charge pressure adjuster position sensor . This is the feedback from the turbo to say where the VNT mechanism is. The lower the voltage the more open the VNT is. I was trying to establish if the pressure loss across the intercooler was lower. If so the VNT would be more open for any given condition. looking at the figures before and after the specified and actual track very well as I expected.
    However looking at the VNT position sensor it's easy to see that there is quite a big difference in the VNT position after the IC has been changed with values being noticeably lower.
    The actual cooling of the new IC is much better than the stock one. I have seen 40 degree intake temperatures on the standard one when it's been 8 degrees ambient, I would say the new one reduces intake temps between 10-15 degrees and also has less pressure drop. The VNT being open wider means less back pressure and lower EGT'S so thats all good.


    Karl.
    #51
  12. desertstorm
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    desertstorm Well-Known Member

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    [Jan 26, 2014]
    Well got around to fitting the new intercooler today it was quite a decent day here this morning and it was a fairly simple install really.

    Intercooler came in a really nice padded box, very posh.

    [​IMG]

    Its a Mishimoto J line off Fleabay

    [​IMG]

    Picked this because the Mishimoto stuff seems to get reasonable reviews, It was the right size, you can fit much bigger intercoolers but they get hidden behind the front bumper bar which is a waste of time and they also will not allow proper airflow for the air con rad and I found on the Passat the air con was not as good as it had been before the intercooler fit because it wasn't seeing ambient temperature air.
    This intercooler is about 20% bigger than standard but it's a bar and plate and weighs 8.5Kg where as the standard intercooler comes in at just over 3Kg. There is a lot more material in the Mishimoto.
    The M on the front is just matt black spray paint and came off really easy with a brass wire brush. The intercooler is painted and this didn't touch the paint so looks good for the future.

    Heres what it looks like inside

    [​IMG]

    All the bits to fit it. All in the intercooler, hoses, clips and alloy joiner tube cost £255.

    [​IMG]

    Here is the original and new one

    [​IMG]

    And a look in the end of the original, actually very little oil in there for a car with 75K on the clock.

    [​IMG]

    Just some small strips of sturdy metal bracket hung off the front bumper bar to support the intercooler. Very easy install.

    [​IMG]

    Cut the hoses to length and fitted the clips, these hoses aren't going anywhere.had to bend an AC line up a little bit for clearance but it was only a small amount so not an issue.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    Looking from the front, the full face of the intercooler is exposed and there is a small gap at the top to allow some direct air through.

    [​IMG]

    I completed some test runs, off road of course, before fitting to try and establish whether the new intercooler was an improvement or not.These are shots of some logs I took before and after.

    Before 6.5 degrees and raining

    [​IMG]

    After 4 degrees and dry

    [​IMG]

    The starting temperatures at the beginning of the runs are high because I had do 2-3 runs before. I logged RPM , Speed , specified and actual boost, intake temperature and the Charge pressure adjuster position sensor . This is the feedback from the turbo to say where the VNT mechanism is. The lower the voltage the more open the VNT is. I was trying to establish if the pressure loss across the intercooler was lower. If so the VNT would be more open for any given condition. looking at the figures before and after the specified and actual track very well as I expected.
    However looking at the VNT position sensor it's easy to see that there is quite a big difference in the VNT position after the IC has been changed with values being noticeably lower.
    The actual cooling of the new IC is much better than the stock one. I have seen 40 degree intake temperatures on the standard one when it's been 8 degrees ambient, I would say the new one reduces intake temps between 10-15 degrees and also has less pressure drop. The VNT being open wider means less back pressure and lower EGT'S so thats all good.


    Karl.
    #52
  13. viceroy
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    viceroy Member

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    [Jan 27, 2014]
    Very nice.
    Have you remapped yet?
    #53
  14. desertstorm
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    desertstorm Well-Known Member

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    [Jan 27, 2014]
    No mapping is next on the agenda after my spare DPF arrives. In the UK they are changing the MOT regulations so all cars that originally had a DPF have to retain one. At the moment it's purely visual so if you cut the DPF open and gut it then that would be good. However I suspect that possibly in the future they may include an actual test to measure smoke levels, if this was the case then the car would fail.
    So as I have a perfectly good working DPF at the moment I have found a duff one on German Ebay and that is winging it's way here at the moment.
    Audi A4 8K 3.0 TDI Katalysator Kat Lamdasonde Dieselpartikelfilter 8K0131765 G | eBay
    Even comes with Lambda and EGT sensors attached. Will check these out on the car and keep them for spares.
    Just need to sort the broken stud which won't take long. This DPF will be gutted and put on the car, I will keep my working DPF and if the rules change regarding the MOT I will just swap the good one onto the car for the MOT.
    If the rules don't change and I don't need to keep mine I will sell it and should get a reasonable amount of money for a genuine working DPF off a 75K mile car. Thats the plan anyway.

    Karl.
    #54
  15. kanecullen89
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    kanecullen89 Active Member

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    [Jan 27, 2014]
    That's a fantastic idea!! I totally didn't think of this.

    Time to search for a busted DPF!!
    #55
  16. desertstorm
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    desertstorm Well-Known Member

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    [Jan 27, 2014]
    Good luck with finding a broken DPF if it's a 3 litre one you are after. Proabably quite a few 2.0 ones around but the 3 litre seems to be quite good on DPF's.

    Before and after photos. If you know what your looking for you will spot the aftermarket FMIC, I try and make my cars as innocuous as possible so big shiny lumps of aluminium with red or blue boost pipes isn't for me :) .

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    Karl.
    #56
  17. kanecullen89
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    kanecullen89 Active Member

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    [Jan 27, 2014]
    It is a 3litre yeah :(
    Love that FMIC!
    #57
  18. viceroy
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    viceroy Member

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    [Jan 28, 2014]
    I'll be doing something similar, except for different reasons.
    I'll be replacing my working DPF with a proper downpipe, and keeping the DPF for awhile.
    My reasoning is that a DP will flow better than a gutted DPF.

    So there may be a working 3.0 DPF (55,000mi) in SA available for the international market, since I doubt the local market would be too interested.

    ps. remap makes a world of difference to the engine...loving it.
    #58
  19. desertstorm
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    desertstorm Well-Known Member

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    [Jan 28, 2014]
    DPF arrived today, Not bad seeing it was posted in Germany on Friday afternoon,Has come air mail so must have cost a few pennies to send as it weighs 12Kg and it wasn't a small box.

    [​IMG]

    The 2 EGT sensors seem to be good, will try them and the Lambda out on the car to check them out.

    Karl
    #59
  20. Jamie-S
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    Jamie-S Member

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    [Jan 28, 2014]
    Aren't their a few different flanges though for the dpf's?
    #60
  21. desertstorm
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    desertstorm Well-Known Member

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    [Jan 28, 2014]
    #61
  22. NotNormal
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    NotNormal Member

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    [Jan 29, 2014]
    Your setup differs to my 09 plate A6 3.0 tdi
    I have the cat directly after the turbo, then the DPF is located seporately about a foot after that according to the EPcC at Audi (visual confirmation by myself concurs - two seporate boxes)

    Enjoying your progress build thread Karl

    The fort on mount intercoolers looks great, nice and subtle
    I'd like one for mine but I have two intercoolers in either corner of the bumpers making uprated ones hard to come across
    Darkside Developmets offer one like yours but nothing listed for the A6 ..... Just you shape A4 and the A5

    Whom are you getting to remap your car once you've removed the dpf ?
    #62
  23. Gazwould
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    Gazwould Active Member

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    [Jan 29, 2014]
    #63
  24. viceroy
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    viceroy Member

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    [Jan 29, 2014]
    Yep, he could put a straight pipe into the DPF which would work well while retaining stock looks :)

    Anyway, question for you Karl.
    I may have missed it above, but what diameter are the inlet/outlet pipes on the FMIC you fitted?
    #64
  25. desertstorm
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    desertstorm Well-Known Member

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    [Jan 29, 2014]
    They are the same size as existing intercooler was and the pipes on the car 62/63 mm or 2.5" .
    #65
  26. snoopster
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    snoopster New Member

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    [Jan 29, 2014]
    Karl,

    Did you need any audi special tools for the spring replacement. 'Front Removal' Step 7 of Stasis is talking about an Audi spreader tool, did you get away without needing it?
    #66
  27. desertstorm
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    desertstorm Well-Known Member

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    [Jan 29, 2014]
    The spreader tool is just used to keep the gap open. I used a chisel making sure it does not contact the body of the shock absorber as you wouldn't want to chisel a hole in it. I suspect this is why they have developed this type of tool, plus theres no hammer swinging or potential to hit something else.
    The really useful tool would have been the rear spring compressor as they were a PITA.

    " The rears springs were interesting as I thought they would be, On my old Passat just a matter of undoing the shock absorber lower mounts and the rear axle would drop down enough to remove the springs. Not so easy on a quattro.
    The official way of removing the rear spring is with a special spring compressor, normal spring compressors mostly won't fit due to the confined space. By putting the spring compressor I have inside the coil spring rather than on the outside, and using some Pretty sturdy ratchet straps managed to compress the standard spring enough to remove it."
    The spring compressors I used are like this.

    2PC 12" COIL SPRING COMPRESSOR CLAMPS HEAVY DUTY | eBay

    Karl
    #67
  28. desertstorm
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    desertstorm Well-Known Member

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    [Feb 3, 2014]
    Fitted some LED'S in the interior lights and the boot lights today.
    only 15 minutes and a couple of pounds but nicer that the standard filament lights and a touch brighter too.
    Before

    [​IMG]

    After

    [​IMG]

    Karl.
    #68
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  29. viceroy
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    viceroy Member

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    [Feb 3, 2014]
    Always a nice touch in a car.
    LED's are the first mod I do in any of my cars.
    #69
  30. Mr-C
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    Mr-C Active Member

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    [Feb 3, 2014]
    So B8 has a single intercooler unlike the B7's twin set up?
    #70
  31. desertstorm
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    desertstorm Well-Known Member

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    [Feb 3, 2014]
    Yes a much simpler and probably cheaper / lighter solution.
    I have since come across this contraption which is about 40% bigger than the one I put on. Probably as big as you can fit in sensibly without filling the whole front end of the car.

    Audi A4 8K 3.0TDI Tuning Ladeluftkühler FMIC KWE | eBay
    #71
  32. viceroy
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    viceroy Member

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    [Feb 4, 2014]
    Is that not overkill, even if the engine is making over 300hp?
    #72
  33. desertstorm
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    desertstorm Well-Known Member

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    [Feb 4, 2014]
    This is the kind of intercooler you would be fitting if pushing the limits. I believe some people are not far off or just over 400bhp with these engines.
    This intercooler has been used to get 395 bhp on a car.

    Karl.
    #73
  34. desertstorm
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    desertstorm Well-Known Member

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    [Feb 17, 2014]
    This job was on my list of things to do so had a look at the weekend. The car is an 08 plate with 75K on the clock and the engine code is CAPA. It had a one piece aluminium manifiold rather than the plastic item.
    Not too difficult to remove the manifold, I was hoping to get it off without undoing the high pressure fuel lines but had too undo 3 joints as not able to remove the manifold otherwise. No problem with this though when restarting the car just took a few seconds to prime the system again and all was good.
    It didn't look as bad as I feared it might be and I cleaned pretty much all the oil/ coke buildup off the manifold using Comma Hyperclean engine degreaser. The swirl flaps looked reasonable , I don't think theres too much play in the rubber bearings.
    when the car is remapped I will be getting the EGR mapped out so that will be the end of any future build up of carbon

    Left intake

    [​IMG]


    Right intake

    [​IMG]

    Left intake

    [​IMG]

    Right intake

    [​IMG]

    I did notice the one side was more coked up than the other. That is the right hand intake had more coke in it I think because of the design of the intake. Air going to the left side of the engine has to do a bit of an about turn so any solid particles in the airstream are more likely to go straight on and end up on the one side of the intake.

    Karl.
    #74
  35. desertstorm
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    desertstorm Well-Known Member

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    [Feb 21, 2014]
    Fitted a glove box light to the car last weekend. Believe it or not it's not a standard item on the car. You have to specify the interior light pack which includes the lights on the vanity mirrors ( standard on a Passat), glove box light (standard on almost all cars) and front footwell lights. This is something like £200 .
    I got the bits from Audi about £16 which was a light fitting for the Glovebox , 2 repair wires and 2 connectors that the repair wires plug into.

    [​IMG]

    The switch is already on the car it's part of the glovebox damper mechanism.
    So just drop the glovebox, light clips in the top of the glovebox in the existing hole.Cut one of the repair wires the one end goes to earth the other to a fuse point on the end of the dash. using one of these.

    ADD A CIRCUIT- FUSE TAP - PIGGYBACK FUSE - TAKES STANDARD FUSE | eBay

    If you want a switched live pick up a feed here.

    [​IMG]

    permanent live get a feed from here

    [​IMG]

    Well useful things these fuse taps are. Replaced the bulb with an LED to match the interior lights. May tackle the footwell lights front and rear next.

    Karl.
    #75
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  36. desertstorm
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    desertstorm Well-Known Member

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    [Mar 23, 2014]
    Big big thanks to Rick at Unicorn Motor developments Unicorn Motor Developments, Custom Remapping and ECU Services Stockport .
    I wanted to get the car mapped and the DPF removed but didn't want a generic phase 1 map . Rick maps the car to what you want with a custom map written by himself.
    The DPF was removed and replaced and you can't see any sign that it's been gutted.
    The brief was get as much reliable power out of the car as possible without turning the car into a mobile fog bank.Remove the limiter and disable the EGR system.

    I had seen this video on you tube
    A5 3.0 TDI MRC Tuning Remap Dyno - YouTube

    Car has the same engine as mine so 310 bhp and 640Nm were my idea of what I wanted. But I didn't want to pay MRC prices.
    The standard car uses 62mg of fuel to make 236bhp, 236/ 62 = 3.8 bhp per mg at 4k rpm. so a rough calculation means we needed to get the injected quantity to around 82mg to make 310bhp, as well as making sure the car didn't smoke too much and the injection timing was within the reasonable limits.
    After lots of logging runs and several different maps the car was done.Fortunately my car can be mapped through the OBD port later EDC17's have to come out.
    There are many limiters built into the ECU that Rick had to work through and calibrating the fuel and boost to get the minimal amount of smoke the car makes took some time.
    To see what impact the tuning was having on the car I found a really great program called virtual dyno
    http://www.virtualdyno.net/

    Just log the rpm against time.Do a run in third gear from 1500 to the red line ON A FLAT road, Tell the program the weight of the car the gear ratio the tyre size, cd of the car and it calculates the power from that. It should calculate whp.
    I took my car to a public weighbridge and the car with 3/4 tank of fuel and me in it was 1880Kg. I weigh 80Kg.
    The car came with a tuning box which I also tried to see what difference it made.
    Looking at the video of the MRC A5 they are calculating whp losses at 62PS and the corrected figure they come up with is 311PS.
    That is a 20% loss, so working on that and my car being 240bhp a 20% loss would be 192bhp.
    Setting the virtual dyno correction factor so that the standard run comes out at 191bhp you get the following.

    [​IMG]

    You can see the tuning box makes a difference but nowhere near in the same league as the remap. The calculated whp is 245 which is pretty much the same as what the MRC car measured at 247.
    Alternatively change the dyno correction factor so that it shows the standard run at the flywheel power you end up with the graph like this, so effectively it's calculating losses the same as it ends up with the same figures

    [​IMG]

    475LB/ft of torque is 645Nm

    The car really flys now 0-60 from the VCDS logs I have done is around 5.6s and it gets to 100 on a closed public road in 13.5 seconds.
    There is a light haze when flat out from about 3800 to 4500 and you can only really see this in the headlights of other cars.
    Fuel economy wise it's definately better will need to give it a few tanks to work out the exact improvemnent
    Here is a bit of a video, it was a bit damp and it was done with the winter tyres on so didn't give it loads of beans.

    [​IMG]

    And heres a 30-70 in third gear 4.8 seconds.

    [​IMG]

    Again thanks to rick he is a real professional who really knows what he is doing. And I would recommend anybody to him.
    Got the Team dynamics wheels to fit now as had the tyres fitted so will try a log and see what the difference is as they are 5.5KG a wheel lighter than what is on the car at the moment.
    Hopefully going to make the GTI spring festival at Santa pod to find out what it will do in a timed quarter mile.

    Karl.
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 20, 2014
    #76
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  37. NotNormal
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    NotNormal Member

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    [Mar 23, 2014]
    interesting reading
    great use of the comparisons using the virtual dyno


    Looks impressive from the short clips posted

    It'll be interesting to see you new econ


    What tuning box is it you you tried please ?
    #77
  38. desertstorm
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    desertstorm Well-Known Member

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    [Mar 23, 2014]
    The tuning box was on the car when I bought it. It is one of the cheaper ones but TBH it doesn't make a lot of difference how much you spend with these you are not going to get massive power increases.

    Diesel Express Home Padge Index

    The maximum fuel rail pressure on this car that is specified by the map is 1650 bar. A tuning box will increase this but obviously there is a limit to the amount that fuel pressure can be increased.
    I believe the fuel pump in this car a CP1H is good for 1800 bar.
    When the specified fuel pressure is lower than 1650 bar the percentage increase can be higher.
    I plotted the input / output voltages for this box to determine it's affects. With a 1650 bar request on the position I had it on that would result in a rail pressure of 1758 bar a 6.5 % increase.At other points the increase is larger but it's never more than about 15% when lower pressures are requested.

    Karl.
    #78
  39. NotNormal
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    NotNormal Member

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    [Mar 23, 2014]
    What's your exhaust noise levels now ?
    effectively your exhaust is straight through turbo back no ???
    #79
  40. desertstorm
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    desertstorm Well-Known Member

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    [Mar 23, 2014]
    Yes it's straight through and it's not really any louder than standard. Some people wouldn't like that, I think it's just fine. I will do another sound level check video if I have time tomorrow just to see what it sounds like revving it.

    Karl.
    #80

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